Strong Endurance

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Sangoma
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Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:08 am

Strong First does seminars with this name. I looked up their references and it led me to the book by Andrej Khozhurkin, Theory and Methodology of Pullups. In the tradition of good old days of translating classified training information fro Russian I did a post on this on my old blog. It's nothing new really, but what the hell, have a look anyway.

Another Template for Strength Endurance

The method is applicable for GS, but I would be very cautious pushing competition numbers three times every training session. However, as per last paragraph of the post, I would consider it for general strength endurance training circuits to supplement BJJ.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by SubClaw » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:54 am

What's the difference between "repeated series" and "cluster sets" (not in the article)? It seems to me they are the exact same thing.

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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by powerlifter54 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:31 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:08 am
Strong First does seminars with this name. I looked up their references and it led me to the book by Andrej Khozhurkin, Theory and Methodology of Pullups. In the tradition of good old days of translating classified training information fro Russian I did a post on this on my old blog. It's nothing new really, but what the hell, have a look anyway.

Another Template for Strength Endurance

The method is applicable for GS, but I would be very cautious pushing competition numbers three times every training session. However, as per last paragraph of the post, I would consider it for general strength endurance training circuits to supplement BJJ.

This is interesting. Will re-read a few times.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:43 pm

Good stuff smet.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:14 am

SubClaw, to be honest I don't know. What I gather is that the main idea of this method is fatigue control and, consequently, the ability to do a lot of volume. Some Russian authors do re-invent the wheel, so it can well be cluster sets.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by SubClaw » Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:17 am

Sangoma wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:14 am
SubClaw, to be honest I don't know. What I gather is that the main idea of this method is fatigue control and, consequently, the ability to do a lot of volume. Some Russian authors do re-invent the wheel, so it can well be cluster sets.
Anyway, thanks for the article. It was quite interesting and information dense. I'm going to need a few re-reads to to grasp it properly.

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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Bobby » Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:15 am

Interesting read.Will need to reread and as I have 4 weeks off work I might try it with pullups and dips.
You`ll toughen up.Unless you have a serious medical condition commonly refered to as
"being a pussy".

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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:18 am

From the horse's mouth (or the horse close to the horse's mouth):

UNDERSTANDING WHY “LESS IS MORE” WITH ANTI-GLYCOLYTIC TRAINING
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:15 am

The actual pitch for the seminar.

STRONG ENDURANCE™ BY PAVEL

The most valuable info is here:
For the last four years StrongFirst has been extensively experimenting with anti-glycolytic protocols and conducting original research advancing AGT into new directions.

We have been very successful with “anti-acid” endurance protocols for kettlebell quick lifts, pull-ups, push-ups, etc. We also have seen a lot of “what the hell effects”—improvements in non-trained events and body composition.

Then we decided to push the envelope and apply AGT to some event that has an exceptionally “acidic” reputation. We chose a popular timed high rep “high intensity” workout. After all, if it worked for judo, why would not it work for this smoker? It did.

Twenty subjects with at least a year of “metcon” experience were assigned to an anti-glycolytic protocol. Twenty matched subjects who served as controls continued their usual race-the-clock and feel-the-burn training. Both groups also did strength training.

Six weeks later the anti-glycolytic group improved 2 ½ times as much as the controls, shaving off 15 seconds off their time versus 6 seconds.
Together with the Khozhurkin's book I think I now have a good idea of of its principles.

Not that different from the Maffetone method: estimated max HR as 180 - age (+/- 5-10 beats per minute) and not exceeding it during easy sessions. In my case max HR is laughable: 180 - 55 = 125/min. It comes back to the same adage: light sessions are not light enough, and because of that our hard sessions are not hard enough either, because we have not recovered from the light "session". I remember reading that Norwegian cross-country skiing coaches are very much against training in the moderate zone; it should be either light runs or super-intense intervals. The ratio being dependent on various factors - athlete's level, degree of fatigue, timing of competition etc.

Another useful link:

Training (mostly) slow to race (kind of) fast
Personally, I found low intensity training extremely beneficial in improving performance. I could see physiological changes in resting heart rate, HRV, sub-maximal HR (and therefore estimated VO2max) and improve performance more in these past 6 months than in the previous 7 years of running. These were not the only changes I implemented, for example in the meantime I’ve also adjusted diet and lost some weight. As some of these changes were simultaneous, determining causality is challenging. However, I believe the biggest changes (increased training volume and cardiorespiratory fitness) are mainly due to this more polarized training, and to finally getting out of the “always moderate” training typical of recreational runners.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:22 am

One of the reasons for my - fairly vigorous - interest in this is that this method goes against the recent fashion, interval training - being the final answer to pretty much every question in fitness. We have discussed this here many times, and the local consensus is that you do need LSD type of training. Still, most of the people I know subscribe to the benefits of "last night it was the hardest workout of my life!" and throwing up as the real indicator of the quality of training.

Maffetone, Khozhurkin, Strong Endurance (and whatever else is going to come out in the future) is about optimizing training load. Less is more, the point of diminishing returns, optimal versus maximal and so on. The sweet spot that makes training enjoyable, as opposed to the feeling of dread in anticipation of the next training session. Especially important to the ageing fitness freaks.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Howieeeeee » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:11 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:22 am
We have discussed this here many times, and the local consensus is that you do need LSD type of training.

The sweet spot that makes training enjoyable, as opposed to the feeling of dread in anticipation of the next training session. Especially important to the ageing fitness freaks.
I have come to embrace this type of training in the past few years myself. I did some studying on how national rowing teams train, for some insight into what might work best in conjunction to kettlebell sport training, and I found an article about the Italian team and how only a small percentage of their weekly training was in the high intensity zone (single digit percentage) relative to LSD training.

I also found a general health article by Clarence Bass that he coined as "barbell cardio", or something to that extent, which advocated the same for general health and fat loss.

As I now approach my 50th year and have recently re-introduced kettlebell sport training into my routine, I found that NOT programming any high intensity work, aside from the kettlebell sets themselves, makes my life, mental outlook , and recovery a lot easier.

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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:15 am

I am going to try this. Training with heart rate monitor, two kettlebell lifts - swing or snatch and double KB squat. Lifting until HR gets close to the calculated max, then stop and wait until it gets at least 10 beats/min under. Or lower, to make sure I can do at least 10 reps in a set without overshooting the HR.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Boris » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:35 am

Somewhat relevant to the discussion here. I used to do 20-30 minute sets of KB snatches back in the day. I think if you get used to doing them, it really does give you that cyborg-level endurance (or whatever it was) that Pavel used to talk about.

"Sustained Heavy Breathing Training": http://squatrx.blogspot.com/2009/08/sus ... ining.html

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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:22 pm

Boris, wouldn't a single continuous set for a long period of time be sort of the opposite of what Pavel is doing with the Strong Endurance program? I thought his thing was like short bursts of high intensity spread out over a long period of time. E.g., a set of five heavy snatches at the top of each minute for 20-30 minutes.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Boris » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:38 am

fwiw, I have no idea what Pavel's doing w. 'strong endurance'. The way I'm doing my snatches in that post is more or less short bursts w. active rest in the overhead position (or when switching hands).

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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Fat Cat » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:55 am

Gotcha. What weight were you using for these marathons? 30 continuous minutes is very impressive.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Boris » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:29 am

24kg (or 1.5 pood if you prefer)

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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by SubClaw » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:28 am

I’m talking out of my ass here, but...

Since I discovered ‘girevoy sport’, I always thought it was the “perfect” way to train for the martial artist. But, for the life of me, I can’t figure out how to make it work for non ballistic exercises.

I mean, a ten minute set of LCCJ is hard as fuck, but the fatigue is widely spread all over the body, so you can actually keep going. How could you make that work with, say, squats, pull ups or any other grinds?

Maybe re-cleaning the bells before each squat would be a feasible way to stay “fresh”, I don’t know. Or alternating opposing exercises, like a lower body push (squats) and an upper body pull (pull ups).

For some reason, an old video from Boris’ YouTube channel comes to mind...

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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Boris » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:13 pm

SubClaw wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:28 am
I’m talking out of my ass here, but...

Since I discovered ‘girevoy sport’, I always thought it was the “perfect” way to train for the martial artist. But, for the life of me, I can’t figure out how to make it work for non ballistic exercises.

I mean, a ten minute set of LCCJ is hard as fuck, but the fatigue is widely spread all over the body, so you can actually keep going. How could you make that work with, say, squats, pull ups or any other grinds?

Maybe re-cleaning the bells before each squat would be a feasible way to stay “fresh”, I don’t know. Or alternating opposing exercises, like a lower body push (squats) and an upper body pull (pull ups).

For some reason, an old video from Boris’ YouTube channel comes to mind...
I used to do EDT-like sessions w. squats and chins. I think I could make it 'aerobic', but you'd have to experiment with load and reps and a heart monitor enough to figure out. I don't have access to a heart rate monitor (probably not tech savvy enough to use it even if I did), but it'd be worth doing.

Here's that video you're talking about, I think (10 minutes, alternating between squats 315 and chins - somewhere mid-way through a custodian starts jabbing to me):
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TluJFiyiflY[/youtube]

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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:04 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:22 pm
Boris, wouldn't a single continuous set for a long period of time be sort of the opposite of what Pavel is doing with the Strong Endurance program? I thought his thing was like short bursts of high intensity spread out over a long period of time. E.g., a set of five heavy snatches at the top of each minute for 20-30 minutes.
You are right. On StrongFirst they also call it a+a training, for aerobic and alactic. The key is to train with HR monitor and make sure you stay below 180-age value most of the time. If this condition is met during the continuous long set I guess it counts as a+a. On the other hand, the aim of this method is to develop the ability to do long sets with heavy bells and avoid the lactate production. Just like Maffetone method for running.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:14 am

SubClaw wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:28 am
I’m talking out of my ass here, but...

Since I discovered ‘girevoy sport’, I always thought it was the “perfect” way to train for the martial artist. But, for the life of me, I can’t figure out how to make it work for non ballistic exercises.

I mean, a ten minute set of LCCJ is hard as fuck, but the fatigue is widely spread all over the body, so you can actually keep going. How could you make that work with, say, squats, pull ups or any other grinds?

Maybe re-cleaning the bells before each squat would be a feasible way to stay “fresh”, I don’t know. Or alternating opposing exercises, like a lower body push (squats) and an upper body pull (pull ups).

For some reason, an old video from Boris’ YouTube channel comes to mind...
SubClaw, but this is what this method is about. You do short sets of squats with rest intervals long enough to get your HR below the magic number. This improves aerobic capacity of the muscles involved, so that eventually you can do one long set without producing too much lactate.

I think combining two (or more) lifts is also a good option.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:48 am

Boris wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:29 am
24kg (or 1.5 pood if you prefer)
Damn dude, you're a hoss. Good work.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by SubClaw » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:42 am

Sangoma wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:14 am
SubClaw, but this is what this method is about. You do short sets of squats with rest intervals long enough to get your HR below the magic number. This improves aerobic capacity of the muscles involved, so that eventually you can do one long set without producing too much lactate.

I think combining two (or more) lifts is also a good option.
Somehow, I kind of (mis)understood that it only applied to quick lifts. I guess I'm going to read your article again... way slower.

Thanks, Smet.

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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Ryan » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:24 pm

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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:40 am

I've been browsing medical databases in thefts couple of days and found some interesting things. One of the latest topics in endurance - polarised training. It means spending 80% of training time in high-volume-low-intensity zone and 20% in very-high-intensity-low volume zone. It seems professional endurance world is turning to this method. Below is one nice review of the method.

Current Scientific Evidence for a Polarized Cardiovascular Endurance Training Model.
Recent publications have provided new scientific evidence for a modern aerobic or cardiovascular endurance exercise prescription that optimizes the periodization cycle and maximizes potential endurance performance gains in highly trained individuals. The traditional threshold, high volume, and high-intensity training models have displayed limited improvement in actual race pace in (highly) trained individuals while frequently resulting in overreaching or overtraining (physical injury and psychological burnout). A review of evidence for replacing these models with the proven polarized training model seems warranted. This review provides a short history of the training models, summarizes 5 key studies, and provides example training programs for both the pre- and in-season periods. A polarized training program is characterized by an undulating nonlinear periodization model with nearly all the training time spent at a "light" (≤13) and "very hard" (≥17) pace with very limited time at "hard" (14-16) or race pace (6-20 Rating of Perceived Exertion [RPE] scale). To accomplish this, the polarization training model has specific high-intensity workouts separated by one or more long slow distance workouts, with the exercise intensity remaining below ventilatory threshold (VT) 1 and/or blood lactate of less than 2 mM (A.K.A. below race pace). Effect sizes for increasing aerobic endurance performance for the polarized training model are consistently superior to that of the threshold training model. Performing a polarized training program may be best accomplished by: going easy on long slow distance workouts, avoiding "race pace" and getting after it during interval workouts.
Free full text of this article is available at this link (second search result):

https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/page ... d+training
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