Essential Kettlebelling

The only place you can learns about balls.

Moderators: Dux, seeahill

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 38222
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by Fat Cat » Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:46 am

No RKC got people started. I remember cuz I was around. Hard Style emerged when Valerie started getting publicity and questioning Pavel’s methods and credentials.
Image
"Prepare your hearts as a fortress, for there will be no other." -Francisco Pizarro González

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6706
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by Sangoma » Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:06 am

Well, to be fair RKC was preaching Hard Style. The idea of which I personally dislike as well. A lift is a lift, and it doesn't matter if you do it for 100 reps or one. GS snatch, for example, is fluid and elegant, so why would you try do it some other way? Below is Khvostov snatching 24 kg, fucking poetry in motion!



HS guys are talking about more power in HS. Look at Rudnev and Merkulin in this video and tell me there is not enough power generated. Mind you, both of them are lifting more or less their body weight for reps.



There is no justification to do barbell snatch for reps with bad form, so why is it ok with kettle bells? Just my opinion.
Image

User avatar
newguy
Top
Posts: 1952
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:32 am

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by newguy » Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:25 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:06 am
Well, to be fair RKC was preaching Hard Style. The idea of which I personally dislike as well. A lift is a lift, and it doesn't matter if you do it for 100 reps or one. GS snatch, for example, is fluid and elegant, so why would you try do it some other way? Below is Khvostov snatching 24 kg, fucking poetry in motion!



HS guys are talking about more power in HS. Look at Rudnev and Merkulin in this video and tell me there is not enough power generated. Mind you, both of them are lifting more or less their body weight for reps.



There is no justification to do barbell snatch for reps with bad form, so why is it ok with kettle bells? Just my opinion.
Well.......not to jump into another kettlebell war and I don't particularly care....... but you cannot state that there is a "fixed" form for kettlebell work......

Form and function. What are you trying to achieve? Your form will follow.....
What does it matter one rep versus 100?
A lot.
A person all out sprinting 100 yards is going to have different form from someone trying to run 26.2 miles.
A powerlifter looking to squat 1 max rep in comp will have different form than a bodybuilder doing sets of 20 to build the legs.

GS is a very specific outcome and the form has evolved to be the best for that particular outcome.
But what if my outcome isn't to snatch as many reps as I can in 10 minutes with one hand switch?
Maybe my form will be different......

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 38222
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:09 pm

Take that gay shit to StrongFirst. GS guys are better at everything kettlebell related, period. It's not even a comparison.
Image
"Prepare your hearts as a fortress, for there will be no other." -Francisco Pizarro González

User avatar
newguy
Top
Posts: 1952
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:32 am

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by newguy » Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:32 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:09 pm
Take that gay shit to StrongFirst. GS guys are better at everything kettlebell related, period. It's not even a comparison.
Sure. If your sole measure of everything kettlebell related is max reps in 10 minutes.....I however am a freethinking individual and do not have to define the ball with the handle solely through the lens of "GS." I can see how the beautiful ball can be used to build strong shoulders. I can see how my handled love can help me torch bodyfat and build strong glutes. I can look at the lovely balls and see an infinite amount of uses and not have to round my spine in imitation of quasimodo just to touch my elbows to my nuts.

But hey - you do you.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 38222
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:08 pm

newguy wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:32 pm
Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:09 pm
Take that gay shit to StrongFirst. GS guys are better at everything kettlebell related, period. It's not even a comparison.
Sure. If your sole measure of everything kettlebell related is max reps in 10 minutes.....I however am a freethinking individual and do not have to define the ball with the handle solely through the lens of "GS." I can see how the beautiful ball can be used to build strong shoulders. I can see how my handled love can help me torch bodyfat and build strong glutes. I can look at the lovely balls and see an infinite amount of uses and not have to round my spine in imitation of quasimodo just to touch my elbows to my nuts.

But hey - you do you.
I absolutely refuse to do me.

I also absolutely refuse to entertain your sad relativism. High level GSers are so high level, most plebs can't even understand it. Here's V. Fedorenko, as a 9/11 tribute, push pressing a 32 kg KB 911 times...that's 72 lbs. for nearly two hours straight. The A+A dweebs can fuck right off.



There is no one anywhere in the RKC/SF world who can approach that performance, and here using an exercise which is not in GS, which is not in 10 minutes, and which shows a high degree of creativity and performance.

In other words, you are completely wrong and once you have grappled with the mixture of shame and self-recrimination you no doubt are experiencing, you will--like a butterfly--emerge anew with a better understanding of the subject.
Image
"Prepare your hearts as a fortress, for there will be no other." -Francisco Pizarro González

User avatar
newguy
Top
Posts: 1952
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:32 am

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by newguy » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:25 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:08 pm
newguy wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:32 pm
Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:09 pm
Take that gay shit to StrongFirst. GS guys are better at everything kettlebell related, period. It's not even a comparison.
Sure. If your sole measure of everything kettlebell related is max reps in 10 minutes.....I however am a freethinking individual and do not have to define the ball with the handle solely through the lens of "GS." I can see how the beautiful ball can be used to build strong shoulders. I can see how my handled love can help me torch bodyfat and build strong glutes. I can look at the lovely balls and see an infinite amount of uses and not have to round my spine in imitation of quasimodo just to touch my elbows to my nuts.

But hey - you do you.
I absolutely refuse to do me.

I also absolutely refuse to entertain your sad relativism. High level GSers are so high level, most plebs can't even understand it. Here's V. Fedorenko, as a 9/11 tribute, push pressing a 32 kg KB 911 times...that's 72 lbs. for nearly two hours straight. The A+A dweebs can fuck right off.



There is no one anywhere in the RKC/SF world who can approach that performance, and here using an exercise which is not in GS, which is not in 10 minutes, and which shows a high degree of creativity and performance.

In other words, you are completely wrong and once you have grappled with the mixture of shame and self-recrimination you no doubt are experiencing, you will--like a butterfly--emerge anew with a better understanding of the subject.
So let me get this straight.....Valery Fedorenko.......a human being whose body was built for GS.....who has been training in GS since he was 13....world class GS athlete......uses GS technique to achieve a lot of reps in a GS specific exercise....

And what is this proving? Exactly?

No. Not one person in the RKC/SF world can approach that. Neither can any black belt. Any NFL player. Any ballerina....

Who cares?

Face it...you are arguing the wrong side......

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 38222
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:32 pm

I am never wrong when I'm right. There is nothing you can do with a kettlebell that GSers can't do better. Juggling, body re-composition, etc. It's not all relative. That's why a guy who has excelled at GS can do non-GS things with a KB that no one else can approach.
Image
"Prepare your hearts as a fortress, for there will be no other." -Francisco Pizarro González

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6706
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by Sangoma » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:38 pm

newguy wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:25 pm
Well.......not to jump into another kettlebell war and I don't particularly care....... but you cannot state that there is a "fixed" form for kettlebell work......

Form and function. What are you trying to achieve? Your form will follow.....
What does it matter one rep versus 100?
A lot.
A person all out sprinting 100 yards is going to have different form from someone trying to run 26.2 miles.
A powerlifter looking to squat 1 max rep in comp will have different form than a bodybuilder doing sets of 20 to build the legs.

GS is a very specific outcome and the form has evolved to be the best for that particular outcome.
But what if my outcome isn't to snatch as many reps as I can in 10 minutes with one hand switch?
Maybe my form will be different......
It's not that there is a fixed form for kettle bell lifts, but some basic principles stay the same. Mark RIppetoe once said that lifting more weight is not necessarily an indication of being stronger, and I think it is a good way to look at Hard Style. Sure, you will lift more weight by squatting deep, not passing the bell behind your knees and accelerating the bell right from the bottom dead point during snatch. And it will be fine because it is only for a few reps. But then what's the point? It's similar to muscling your way in crawl in the swimming pool - you are even likely to beat more technical but weaker swimmers. But again, what's the point? I am guessing your squat will look the same if you do one or twenty reps. Same with the deadlift and bench and other lifts. Why should snatch, jerk or long cycle be different. I am not being overly pedantic, but basic principles should be constant, like not pressing the snatch overhead.

For the sake of moving more weight hardstylers break even their own commandments. Dan John and many others have been driving the point of swing being a hinge movement. Yet, many dudes on SF squat in heavy swing, and when you question it they come up with explanations why it is ok to do it if the bell is heavy. I say this is bullshit. A swing is a swing, heavy or light.
Image

User avatar
newguy
Top
Posts: 1952
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:32 am

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by newguy » Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:27 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:32 pm
I am never wrong when I'm right. There is nothing you can do with a kettlebell that GSers can't do better. Juggling, body re-composition, etc. It's not all relative. That's why a guy who has excelled at GS can do non-GS things with a KB that no one else can approach.
Who are these GS guys doing non GS things with KBs that no one else can approach? And who are the no one elses? Is an elite GS athlete really going to put up more double 48 kg strict presses than an olympic lifter? Do we really know this?

But even more....who cares? That is not the point of the argument. The point of the argument is this -
Form follows function. What are you trying to achieve? When you set your goal your form will adapt to meet the goal. A person who is curling to increase bicep size utilizing sets of 10 will have much different form than someone trying to do a max cheat curl.

Someone using the KBs to build overall strength and endurance along with size and muscularity in the shoulders will use a different form than what modern GS advocates. The GS tempo press is not the best press for most people. The ETK form for one arm press is better. The KB 2 hand swing, hardstyle, is a better swing than the GS 1 minute swing Valery taught me.

The fact that elite athletes can do elite things is beside the point. The point is form.

User avatar
newguy
Top
Posts: 1952
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:32 am

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by newguy » Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:35 am

Sangoma wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:38 pm
newguy wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:25 pm
Well.......not to jump into another kettlebell war and I don't particularly care....... but you cannot state that there is a "fixed" form for kettlebell work......

Form and function. What are you trying to achieve? Your form will follow.....
What does it matter one rep versus 100?
A lot.
A person all out sprinting 100 yards is going to have different form from someone trying to run 26.2 miles.
A powerlifter looking to squat 1 max rep in comp will have different form than a bodybuilder doing sets of 20 to build the legs.

GS is a very specific outcome and the form has evolved to be the best for that particular outcome.
But what if my outcome isn't to snatch as many reps as I can in 10 minutes with one hand switch?
Maybe my form will be different......
It's not that there is a fixed form for kettle bell lifts, but some basic principles stay the same. Mark RIppetoe once said that lifting more weight is not necessarily an indication of being stronger, and I think it is a good way to look at Hard Style. Sure, you will lift more weight by squatting deep, not passing the bell behind your knees and accelerating the bell right from the bottom dead point during snatch. And it will be fine because it is only for a few reps. But then what's the point? It's similar to muscling your way in crawl in the swimming pool - you are even likely to beat more technical but weaker swimmers. But again, what's the point? I am guessing your squat will look the same if you do one or twenty reps. Same with the deadlift and bench and other lifts. Why should snatch, jerk or long cycle be different. I am not being overly pedantic, but basic principles should be constant, like not pressing the snatch overhead.

For the sake of moving more weight hardstylers break even their own commandments. Dan John and many others have been driving the point of swing being a hinge movement. Yet, many dudes on SF squat in heavy swing, and when you question it they come up with explanations why it is ok to do it if the bell is heavy. I say this is bullshit. A swing is a swing, heavy or light.
I think you are saying something different though.....maybe even backwards?

GS form evolved. Modern GS form is not what you find originally. As the rules of the sport became fixed, the form evolved to allow you to achieve more reps. There is nothing natural or necessary when it comes to the rounded back and elbows to the hips except for the fact that it allows you get more reps using less energy.

And in that regards....what is the point? Outside of the dictates of sport....there is no point.

I am not saying there is anything "wrong" with GS form. It is fine. I know it. I learned. But it is not essential to getting results with kettlebells. I no longer even attempt to round the back and properly place the elbows. Why? Because there is no point. I am not a GS athlete. I can do my LC in ladders of 4,6,10. I can do one arm snatches in sets of 20, setting the bell down between sets. I can do my jerks in sets of 10........

GS form is a set specialized techniques for a specialized result.

Hanglow Joe
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 436
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:12 pm
Location: North of Vag
Contact:

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by Hanglow Joe » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:26 am

I just saw Gorilla Girevek on instagram yesterday double snatch 48's. Unbelievable.

User avatar
Wild Bill
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 5481
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:26 am

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by Wild Bill » Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:48 pm

Each barbell 80kg


Ivan Markov, new star. Quite muscled for girevik.
Image

Hanglow Joe
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 436
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:12 pm
Location: North of Vag
Contact:

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by Hanglow Joe » Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:51 pm

Here is non-essential kettlebelling. On StrongFirst Instagram there was a lady who was doing sets of 4 two hand swings every 30 seconds with a 32kg for 70 minutes. What a colossal waste of time. I would die of boredom.

Hanglow Joe
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 436
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:12 pm
Location: North of Vag
Contact:

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by Hanglow Joe » Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:03 pm

JUST LOL. A sucker born every minute


Second Wind by Pavel
Russian Breathing & Relaxation Techniques for Superior Performance

REGISTER NOW to attend Second Wind in Seattle
Date: November 9-10, 2019 in Seattle, WA, USA
Price: $795

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 38222
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:28 pm

newguy wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:27 am
Who are these GS guys doing non GS things with KBs that no one else can approach? And who are the no one elses? Is an elite GS athlete really going to put up more double 48 kg strict presses than an olympic lifter? Do we really know this?


newguy wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:27 am
But even more....who cares? That is not the point of the argument. The point of the argument is this -
Form follows function. What are you trying to achieve? When you set your goal your form will adapt to meet the goal. A person who is curling to increase bicep size utilizing sets of 10 will have much different form than someone trying to do a max cheat curl.
This is too banal to argue. Some things are relative, but not everything. More weight is more weight, more reps are more reps, more volume is more volume. GS guys can do all of the above, measurably exceeding HS performances. Even Pavhole admits, "strength is a skill" and they have more skill, period.
newguy wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:27 am
Someone using the KBs to build overall strength and endurance along with size and muscularity in the shoulders will use a different form than what modern GS advocates. The GS tempo press is not the best press for most people. The ETK form for one arm press is better. The KB 2 hand swing, hardstyle, is a better swing than the GS 1 minute swing Valery taught me.

The fact that elite athletes can do elite things is beside the point. The point is form.
OK, I bite. Why is the GS press not good for most people, but the ETK one is? If you have a given person, lifting a given weight--say 24 kg--why isn't more reps and longer sets better? More time under tension, more volume, more everything. I can't follow your logic.
Image
"Prepare your hearts as a fortress, for there will be no other." -Francisco Pizarro González

User avatar
Wild Bill
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 5481
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:26 am

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by Wild Bill » Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:01 pm

Hanglow Joe wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:03 pm
Price: $795
wow :)

User avatar
newguy
Top
Posts: 1952
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:32 am

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by newguy » Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:21 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:28 pm
newguy wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:27 am
Who are these GS guys doing non GS things with KBs that no one else can approach? And who are the no one elses? Is an elite GS athlete really going to put up more double 48 kg strict presses than an olympic lifter? Do we really know this?


newguy wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:27 am
But even more....who cares? That is not the point of the argument. The point of the argument is this -
Form follows function. What are you trying to achieve? When you set your goal your form will adapt to meet the goal. A person who is curling to increase bicep size utilizing sets of 10 will have much different form than someone trying to do a max cheat curl.
This is too banal to argue. Some things are relative, but not everything. More weight is more weight, more reps are more reps, more volume is more volume. GS guys can do all of the above, measurably exceeding HS performances. Even Pavhole admits, "strength is a skill" and they have more skill, period.
newguy wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:27 am
Someone using the KBs to build overall strength and endurance along with size and muscularity in the shoulders will use a different form than what modern GS advocates. The GS tempo press is not the best press for most people. The ETK form for one arm press is better. The KB 2 hand swing, hardstyle, is a better swing than the GS 1 minute swing Valery taught me.

The fact that elite athletes can do elite things is beside the point. The point is form.
OK, I bite. Why is the GS press not good for most people, but the ETK one is? If you have a given person, lifting a given weight--say 24 kg--why isn't more reps and longer sets better? More time under tension, more volume, more everything. I can't follow your logic.
More weight is more weight, more reps are more reps, more volume is more volume. - Patently untrue and it makes me question if you have ever attempted to build muscle or might. Outside the confines of sport, weight is a means to an end, not the end in and of itself. The weight is a tool to generate tension. You can alter your form to add more weight, and at the same time lessen the tension involved. There is a reason Valery is not strict pressing the 32 for 911 times. He is not strong enough. And there is a reason his shoulders are not the 8th and 9th wonders of the world.....
I can muscle up curls with a "heavy" dumbbell. I can get more impact in my biceps when I lessen the weight and do incline curls......weight is means to and end.

GS guys can do all of the above, measurably exceeding HS performances - This is meaningless. GS athletes at this time are professional, elite athletes. Why wouldn't they be able to perform at a high level? It is literally their job because that is what they can do (perform at an elite level). Their bodies are genetically suited for GS lifting. Their elbows hit their hips. They spend hours a day training endurance/strength. They hone their technique to use the least amount of effort possible in their lifting in order to get in as many fluid reps as possible. Wouldn't it be fairly ludicrous if they couldn't do these things better than what are essentially professional trainers?

Why is the GS press not good for most people, but the ETK one is? If you have a given person, lifting a given weight--say 24 kg--why isn't more reps and longer sets better? More time under tension, more volume, more everything. I can't follow your logic. - At this point I am convinced you are trolling and simply longing for the glory days of the KB wars. And I hear you. Those were grand times.

Have you ever spent any time with the GS (tempo) press? Any honest, serious time? It takes almost (not all) but almost all of the work off the shoulder. As an expression of a certain technique, it is outstanding As an exercise....there is no point. Most people who decide to do a press are looking to....I don't know...PRESS a weight. And probably to get bigger and stronger shoulders. The GS press doesn't do any of that. It is legit one of the most useless exercises in existence. The ETK press is at least a press. You will put muscle on your shoulders and tris and arms. (I do not highly value one arm presses.)

Listen - I am not devaluing the strength and conditioning of GS athletes. They are amazing athletes. Beyond amazing. But they are not amazing athletes because of GS technique. GS technique is means to express physical qualities they have developed through countless hours of training. They are beasts because they have trained to be beasts. Not because they make sure their elbows touch the hips and open their hands at the top of the snatch.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 38222
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:54 pm

Relax. I'm enjoying the discussion and not trolling, so take it in a positive light. Fighting is what we do here, newguy.
newguy wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:21 pm
More weight is more weight, more reps are more reps, more volume is more volume. - Patently untrue and it makes me question if you have ever attempted to build muscle or might. Outside the confines of sport, weight is a means to an end, not the end in and of itself. The weight is a tool to generate tension. You can alter your form to add more weight, and at the same time lessen the tension involved. There is a reason Valery is not strict pressing the 32 for 911 times. He is not strong enough. And there is a reason his shoulders are not the 8th and 9th wonders of the world.....
I can muscle up curls with a "heavy" dumbbell. I can get more impact in my biceps when I lessen the weight and do incline curls......weight is means to and end.
I think, at least numerically speaking, what I said in bold is true. But, what you say is true enough: outside of weightlifting contests, it's a means to an end. But if that's true, how is it not the case that more weight, more reps, more volume doesn't accomplish those ends better? Maybe V.F. can't strict press a 32 kg bell for 911 reps, but I would be willing to be that he can strict press one more times than any HS instructor anywhere.
newguy wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:21 pm
GS guys can do all of the above, measurably exceeding HS performances - This is meaningless. GS athletes at this time are professional, elite athletes. Why wouldn't they be able to perform at a high level? It is literally their job because that is what they can do (perform at an elite level). Their bodies are genetically suited for GS lifting. Their elbows hit their hips. They spend hours a day training endurance/strength. They hone their technique to use the least amount of effort possible in their lifting in order to get in as many fluid reps as possible. Wouldn't it be fairly ludicrous if they couldn't do these things better than what are essentially professional trainers?
This does not compute. You say that of course GS guys are elite and can outperform HS guys because they're pros, but then you say that HS guys are "essentially professional trainers". Apples to apples, pros against pros...isn't that a perfect basis for comparison. I don't see a bunch of HS guys that are way more jacked than GS guys of similar weight classes, do you?
newguy wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:21 pm
Why is the GS press not good for most people, but the ETK one is? If you have a given person, lifting a given weight--say 24 kg--why isn't more reps and longer sets better? More time under tension, more volume, more everything. I can't follow your logic. - At this point I am convinced you are trolling and simply longing for the glory days of the KB wars. And I hear you. Those were grand times.
Image
newguy wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:21 pm
Have you ever spent any time with the GS (tempo) press? Any honest, serious time? It takes almost (not all) but almost all of the work off the shoulder. As an expression of a certain technique, it is outstanding As an exercise....there is no point. Most people who decide to do a press are looking to....I don't know...PRESS a weight. And probably to get bigger and stronger shoulders. The GS press doesn't do any of that. It is legit one of the most useless exercises in existence. The ETK press is at least a press. You will put muscle on your shoulders and tris and arms. (I do not highly value one arm presses.)
I have done just a little bit, enough for me to develop a very high estimation of the guys who really excel at it. I have posted over a decade of workout logs here, if you're curious about my training. To me, part of the skill of strength is improving your technique so that you recruit more muscle to perform a given movement. That's not a bug, it's a feature. Here's video from the 1960 Olympics in Rome of weightlifters doing the Clean and Press:



All of these guys are recruiting as much muscle as possible, using a specialized set of techniques, but they all still have massive shoulders and are undeniably strong even in movements unrelated to their sport.
newguy wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:21 pm
Listen - I am not devaluing the strength and conditioning of GS athletes. They are amazing athletes. Beyond amazing. But they are not amazing athletes because of GS technique. GS technique is means to express physical qualities they have developed through countless hours of training. They are beasts because they have trained to be beasts. Not because they make sure their elbows touch the hips and open their hands at the top of the snatch.
GS-style training can build attributes, not just display existing ones, and it's more effective than HS. FIGHT ME.
Image
"Prepare your hearts as a fortress, for there will be no other." -Francisco Pizarro González

User avatar
newguy
Top
Posts: 1952
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:32 am

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by newguy » Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:54 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:54 pm
Relax. I'm enjoying the discussion and not trolling, so take it in a positive light. Fighting is what we do here, newguy.
newguy wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:21 pm
More weight is more weight, more reps are more reps, more volume is more volume. - Patently untrue and it makes me question if you have ever attempted to build muscle or might. Outside the confines of sport, weight is a means to an end, not the end in and of itself. The weight is a tool to generate tension. You can alter your form to add more weight, and at the same time lessen the tension involved. There is a reason Valery is not strict pressing the 32 for 911 times. He is not strong enough. And there is a reason his shoulders are not the 8th and 9th wonders of the world.....
I can muscle up curls with a "heavy" dumbbell. I can get more impact in my biceps when I lessen the weight and do incline curls......weight is means to and end.
I think, at least numerically speaking, what I said in bold is true. But, what you say is true enough: outside of weightlifting contests, it's a means to an end. But if that's true, how is it not the case that more weight, more reps, more volume doesn't accomplish those ends better? Maybe V.F. can't strict press a 32 kg bell for 911 reps, but I would be willing to be that he can strict press one more times than any HS instructor anywhere.
newguy wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:21 pm
GS guys can do all of the above, measurably exceeding HS performances - This is meaningless. GS athletes at this time are professional, elite athletes. Why wouldn't they be able to perform at a high level? It is literally their job because that is what they can do (perform at an elite level). Their bodies are genetically suited for GS lifting. Their elbows hit their hips. They spend hours a day training endurance/strength. They hone their technique to use the least amount of effort possible in their lifting in order to get in as many fluid reps as possible. Wouldn't it be fairly ludicrous if they couldn't do these things better than what are essentially professional trainers?
This does not compute. You say that of course GS guys are elite and can outperform HS guys because they're pros, but then you say that HS guys are "essentially professional trainers". Apples to apples, pros against pros...isn't that a perfect basis for comparison. I don't see a bunch of HS guys that are way more jacked than GS guys of similar weight classes, do you?
newguy wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:21 pm
Why is the GS press not good for most people, but the ETK one is? If you have a given person, lifting a given weight--say 24 kg--why isn't more reps and longer sets better? More time under tension, more volume, more everything. I can't follow your logic. - At this point I am convinced you are trolling and simply longing for the glory days of the KB wars. And I hear you. Those were grand times.
Image
newguy wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:21 pm
Have you ever spent any time with the GS (tempo) press? Any honest, serious time? It takes almost (not all) but almost all of the work off the shoulder. As an expression of a certain technique, it is outstanding As an exercise....there is no point. Most people who decide to do a press are looking to....I don't know...PRESS a weight. And probably to get bigger and stronger shoulders. The GS press doesn't do any of that. It is legit one of the most useless exercises in existence. The ETK press is at least a press. You will put muscle on your shoulders and tris and arms. (I do not highly value one arm presses.)
I have done just a little bit, enough for me to develop a very high estimation of the guys who really excel at it. I have posted over a decade of workout logs here, if you're curious about my training. To me, part of the skill of strength is improving your technique so that you recruit more muscle to perform a given movement. That's not a bug, it's a feature. Here's video from the 1960 Olympics in Rome of weightlifters doing the Clean and Press:



All of these guys are recruiting as much muscle as possible, using a specialized set of techniques, but they all still have massive shoulders and are undeniably strong even in movements unrelated to their sport.
newguy wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:21 pm
Listen - I am not devaluing the strength and conditioning of GS athletes. They are amazing athletes. Beyond amazing. But they are not amazing athletes because of GS technique. GS technique is means to express physical qualities they have developed through countless hours of training. They are beasts because they have trained to be beasts. Not because they make sure their elbows touch the hips and open their hands at the top of the snatch.
GS-style training can build attributes, not just display existing ones, and it's more effective than HS. FIGHT ME.
----

But if that's true, how is it not the case that more weight, more reps, more volume doesn't accomplish those ends better? Maybe V.F. can't strict press a 32 kg bell for 911 reps, but I would be willing to be that he can strict press one more times than any HS instructor anywhere.

1. Because more weight, more reps, more volume does not necessarily build more muscle. At some point volume is detrimental to muscle growth. To use a tired analogy, look at a marathon runner vs. a sprinter. There is a limit to the amount of volume that will build muscle. This is not completely clear cut. The amount of volume per set, per session, etc. comes into play. But volume can limit muscular growth. This is just true. And at the same time, there is a limit to the amount of weight that, without maintaining a certain form, will transfer tension into the muscle.
Look - this is not an argument. This is fact. It goes way back to McCallum and the keys to progress and even before that. It was what Pavel acknowledged when he said the key to building muscle was a pump with a heavy weight (although he was wrong about the heavy weight.) It's what Wendler meant when he said he'd done good mornings with 500 pounds but got more out of them using 135 (or something like that.) At some point the weight becomes heavy enough that you aren't using the muscle. It is counter intuitive but that does not make it less true. Less weight can lead to more tension on the muscle. At some point the volume becomes high enough that you can no longer generate adequate tension to build muscle. Or it becomes high enough that the muscle can no longer tolerate the load and technique has to be changed.

And before you point to the muscular GS athletes.....they are doing a lot of other training. Which I will get to. And no. I would not bet that Valery could strict press 32s more times than strength athletes. I would not make that bet at all.

2. This does not compute. You say that of course GS guys are elite and can outperform HS guys because they're pros, but then you say that HS guys are "essentially professional trainers". Apples to apples, pros against pros...isn't that a perfect basis for comparison. I don't see a bunch of HS guys that are way more jacked than GS guys of similar weight classes, do you?
Of course this computes and you know it. Who spends more time training? And MMA fighter or their coach? Who spends more time training? A professional athlete or a professional trainer (personal trainer, coach, etc.) Professional trainers spend their time training people. Yes. GS guys are jacked. So are professional soccer players. So are weightlifters in the middle weight classes. And boxers. And MMA fighters. You know who else is jacked? High end high school football players.
Of course GS athletes can out perform a lot of athletes. GS training is the fucking shit. It is unbelievable. I attended a "pro training" day with Valery and the team. It was four hours. And it was supposed to be followed up with a 5 to 10k run. And that was not really a full day of training. If I did that day in, day out, I would be jacked and able to out perform a lot of people.

These are elite athletes. Comparing them to anything other than other elite athletes are meaningless. And they are jacked. They are lifting weights. They are doing jump squats. They are doing specialized exercises. All day every day.

3. I have done just a little bit, enough for me to develop a very high estimation of the guys who really excel at it. I have posted over a decade of workout logs here, if you're curious about my training. To me, part of the skill of strength is improving your technique so that you recruit more muscle to perform a given movement. That's not a bug, it's a feature. Here's video from the 1960 Olympics in Rome of weightlifters doing the Clean and Press:......All of these guys are recruiting as much muscle as possible, using a specialized set of techniques, but they all still have massive shoulders and are undeniably strong even in movements unrelated to their sport.

You are well versed enough in the history of the game to know that when the clean and press was a competition event the training of weightlifters was different. The amount of pressing and special exercises put muscle on the shoulders. Incline presses off the boards. Kettlebell presses. Sets of five. Bench presses even. And again, you are using elite athletes. These guys get jacked from mowing the lawn. And now they use specialized bodybuilding exercises to build the muscles. And they use these with lower weights and bodybuilding sets and rep schemes.

I absolutely agree with you that improving technique to improve recruitment of muscle matters.....but I am going to give away a secret I've been working on recently. You can also improve the recruitment of muscle to enhance strength and technique. And you can only do this when you drop the weight enough to actually focus on using the muscle. This not necessarily a part of this discussion, but it sort of fits.

4. GS-style training can build attributes, not just display existing ones, and it's more effective than HS. FIGHT ME.
I agree 100 percent. But, having been taught GS technique directly from Valery Fedorenko himself. Having attened the pro day. All of that......you can do GS style training without needing strict GS techniques. And GS techniques can and will inhibit the development of muscle unless supplemented with other training methods (which GS athletes do.) I am not arguing against the training and training parameters of GS. I am arguing that defining the use of kettlebells solely through the lens of modern GS technique is neither necessary nor beneficial.

My point in all of this is to free the kettlebell from limiting dogma. This idea that you have to know "GS" technique and have "GS" form to benefit from KB jerks is bullshit. You can use good old regular jerk form and get a kick ass workout and development. You do not need "GS" technique to jerk! You can jerk like an american and it will be a great jerk.

I no longer kick my hip the the side to support the elbow in one arm LC. Because I switch on the minute. And that does great things for my running.

I find that the KB clean and press done strictly is a great exercise. The hard style two hand swing rocks. The get up, minus a hip thrust, is a manly demonstration of strength and grace.

Stop opening your hand and going limp when you hit the snatch. Hit the snatch hard. Own the snatch. Own. The. Snatch.

I am shocked that you are arguing against owning the snatch.

The KB is the tool of the people and I am giving it back to the people. All of you elitists and bourgeoisie will be toppled.

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6706
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by Sangoma » Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:08 am

newguy wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:35 am
I think you are saying something different though.....maybe even backwards?
As is well known on this forum this is not unusual when I am involved in a conversation.

But let me illustrate something. One guy on SF asks about his snatch form. Someone replies - too much squat, so that the lift is turned from a hinge movement to a squat one. Several orthodox members: it's ok if you are moving a large weight.

For me this is the same as saying: if you are squatting big weights it's ok to good morning out of the hole and round your lower back. See my point? As I said, there are basic principles of a lift that should not be changed, no matter what the goals are. At the same time some other aspects can be changed. In case of a KB snatch - it should remain a hinge lift, but you don't have to do several things that make it economical for the purposes of GS. So it's ok to reverse the bell from the bottom position (as opposed to when it passed to the front in GS), have the arm turned frontal at the top (as opposed to saggital in GS), use different lowering technique etc.

You will get the same comments from HSers if you try advocate more engagement of calf muscles in clean and jerk, as well as deflecting the trunk backwards in jerk, or engaging the calves when you drop the bells onto the chest (as opposed to bending the knees). The argument is the same, different goals for HS etc. I don't see how engaging more muscles and generating more power is serving HS better.

But then again, I guess for each his own. I am glad though to see old fights reincarnated on IGx. Even without the involvement of the female members of each other families in the debate it is still lively. \:D/
Image

User avatar
Wild Bill
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 5481
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:26 am

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by Wild Bill » Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:19 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:54 pm

Image
Great pic :))

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 38222
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:38 pm

newguy wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:54 am
But if that's true, how is it not the case that more weight, more reps, more volume doesn't accomplish those ends better? Maybe V.F. can't strict press a 32 kg bell for 911 reps, but I would be willing to be that he can strict press one more times than any HS instructor anywhere.

1. Because more weight, more reps, more volume does not necessarily build more muscle. At some point volume is detrimental to muscle growth. To use a tired analogy, look at a marathon runner vs. a sprinter. There is a limit to the amount of volume that will build muscle. This is not completely clear cut. The amount of volume per set, per session, etc. comes into play. But volume can limit muscular growth. This is just true. And at the same time, there is a limit to the amount of weight that, without maintaining a certain form, will transfer tension into the muscle.
Look - this is not an argument. This is fact. It goes way back to McCallum and the keys to progress and even before that. It was what Pavel acknowledged when he said the key to building muscle was a pump with a heavy weight (although he was wrong about the heavy weight.) It's what Wendler meant when he said he'd done good mornings with 500 pounds but got more out of them using 135 (or something like that.) At some point the weight becomes heavy enough that you aren't using the muscle. It is counter intuitive but that does not make it less true. Less weight can lead to more tension on the muscle. At some point the volume becomes high enough that you can no longer generate adequate tension to build muscle. Or it becomes high enough that the muscle can no longer tolerate the load and technique has to be changed.

And before you point to the muscular GS athletes.....they are doing a lot of other training. Which I will get to. And no. I would not bet that Valery could strict press 32s more times than strength athletes. I would not make that bet at all.

2. This does not compute. You say that of course GS guys are elite and can outperform HS guys because they're pros, but then you say that HS guys are "essentially professional trainers". Apples to apples, pros against pros...isn't that a perfect basis for comparison. I don't see a bunch of HS guys that are way more jacked than GS guys of similar weight classes, do you?
Of course this computes and you know it. Who spends more time training? And MMA fighter or their coach? Who spends more time training? A professional athlete or a professional trainer (personal trainer, coach, etc.) Professional trainers spend their time training people. Yes. GS guys are jacked. So are professional soccer players. So are weightlifters in the middle weight classes. And boxers. And MMA fighters. You know who else is jacked? High end high school football players.
Of course GS athletes can out perform a lot of athletes. GS training is the fucking shit. It is unbelievable. I attended a "pro training" day with Valery and the team. It was four hours. And it was supposed to be followed up with a 5 to 10k run. And that was not really a full day of training. If I did that day in, day out, I would be jacked and able to out perform a lot of people.

These are elite athletes. Comparing them to anything other than other elite athletes are meaningless. And they are jacked. They are lifting weights. They are doing jump squats. They are doing specialized exercises. All day every day.

3. I have done just a little bit, enough for me to develop a very high estimation of the guys who really excel at it. I have posted over a decade of workout logs here, if you're curious about my training. To me, part of the skill of strength is improving your technique so that you recruit more muscle to perform a given movement. That's not a bug, it's a feature. Here's video from the 1960 Olympics in Rome of weightlifters doing the Clean and Press:......All of these guys are recruiting as much muscle as possible, using a specialized set of techniques, but they all still have massive shoulders and are undeniably strong even in movements unrelated to their sport.

You are well versed enough in the history of the game to know that when the clean and press was a competition event the training of weightlifters was different. The amount of pressing and special exercises put muscle on the shoulders. Incline presses off the boards. Kettlebell presses. Sets of five. Bench presses even. And again, you are using elite athletes. These guys get jacked from mowing the lawn. And now they use specialized bodybuilding exercises to build the muscles. And they use these with lower weights and bodybuilding sets and rep schemes.

I absolutely agree with you that improving technique to improve recruitment of muscle matters.....but I am going to give away a secret I've been working on recently. You can also improve the recruitment of muscle to enhance strength and technique. And you can only do this when you drop the weight enough to actually focus on using the muscle. This not necessarily a part of this discussion, but it sort of fits.

4. GS-style training can build attributes, not just display existing ones, and it's more effective than HS. FIGHT ME.
I agree 100 percent. But, having been taught GS technique directly from Valery Fedorenko himself. Having attened the pro day. All of that......you can do GS style training without needing strict GS techniques. And GS techniques can and will inhibit the development of muscle unless supplemented with other training methods (which GS athletes do.) I am not arguing against the training and training parameters of GS. I am arguing that defining the use of kettlebells solely through the lens of modern GS technique is neither necessary nor beneficial.

My point in all of this is to free the kettlebell from limiting dogma. This idea that you have to know "GS" technique and have "GS" form to benefit from KB jerks is bullshit. You can use good old regular jerk form and get a kick ass workout and development. You do not need "GS" technique to jerk! You can jerk like an american and it will be a great jerk.

I no longer kick my hip the the side to support the elbow in one arm LC. Because I switch on the minute. And that does great things for my running.

I find that the KB clean and press done strictly is a great exercise. The hard style two hand swing rocks. The get up, minus a hip thrust, is a manly demonstration of strength and grace.

Stop opening your hand and going limp when you hit the snatch. Hit the snatch hard. Own the snatch. Own. The. Snatch.

I am shocked that you are arguing against owning the snatch.

The KB is the tool of the people and I am giving it back to the people. All of you elitists and bourgeoisie will be toppled.
Image
Image
"Prepare your hearts as a fortress, for there will be no other." -Francisco Pizarro González

User avatar
newguy
Top
Posts: 1952
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:32 am

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by newguy » Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:34 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:38 pm
newguy wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:54 am
But if that's true, how is it not the case that more weight, more reps, more volume doesn't accomplish those ends better? Maybe V.F. can't strict press a 32 kg bell for 911 reps, but I would be willing to be that he can strict press one more times than any HS instructor anywhere.

1. Because more weight, more reps, more volume does not necessarily build more muscle. At some point volume is detrimental to muscle growth. To use a tired analogy, look at a marathon runner vs. a sprinter. There is a limit to the amount of volume that will build muscle. This is not completely clear cut. The amount of volume per set, per session, etc. comes into play. But volume can limit muscular growth. This is just true. And at the same time, there is a limit to the amount of weight that, without maintaining a certain form, will transfer tension into the muscle.
Look - this is not an argument. This is fact. It goes way back to McCallum and the keys to progress and even before that. It was what Pavel acknowledged when he said the key to building muscle was a pump with a heavy weight (although he was wrong about the heavy weight.) It's what Wendler meant when he said he'd done good mornings with 500 pounds but got more out of them using 135 (or something like that.) At some point the weight becomes heavy enough that you aren't using the muscle. It is counter intuitive but that does not make it less true. Less weight can lead to more tension on the muscle. At some point the volume becomes high enough that you can no longer generate adequate tension to build muscle. Or it becomes high enough that the muscle can no longer tolerate the load and technique has to be changed.

And before you point to the muscular GS athletes.....they are doing a lot of other training. Which I will get to. And no. I would not bet that Valery could strict press 32s more times than strength athletes. I would not make that bet at all.

2. This does not compute. You say that of course GS guys are elite and can outperform HS guys because they're pros, but then you say that HS guys are "essentially professional trainers". Apples to apples, pros against pros...isn't that a perfect basis for comparison. I don't see a bunch of HS guys that are way more jacked than GS guys of similar weight classes, do you?
Of course this computes and you know it. Who spends more time training? And MMA fighter or their coach? Who spends more time training? A professional athlete or a professional trainer (personal trainer, coach, etc.) Professional trainers spend their time training people. Yes. GS guys are jacked. So are professional soccer players. So are weightlifters in the middle weight classes. And boxers. And MMA fighters. You know who else is jacked? High end high school football players.
Of course GS athletes can out perform a lot of athletes. GS training is the fucking shit. It is unbelievable. I attended a "pro training" day with Valery and the team. It was four hours. And it was supposed to be followed up with a 5 to 10k run. And that was not really a full day of training. If I did that day in, day out, I would be jacked and able to out perform a lot of people.

These are elite athletes. Comparing them to anything other than other elite athletes are meaningless. And they are jacked. They are lifting weights. They are doing jump squats. They are doing specialized exercises. All day every day.

3. I have done just a little bit, enough for me to develop a very high estimation of the guys who really excel at it. I have posted over a decade of workout logs here, if you're curious about my training. To me, part of the skill of strength is improving your technique so that you recruit more muscle to perform a given movement. That's not a bug, it's a feature. Here's video from the 1960 Olympics in Rome of weightlifters doing the Clean and Press:......All of these guys are recruiting as much muscle as possible, using a specialized set of techniques, but they all still have massive shoulders and are undeniably strong even in movements unrelated to their sport.

You are well versed enough in the history of the game to know that when the clean and press was a competition event the training of weightlifters was different. The amount of pressing and special exercises put muscle on the shoulders. Incline presses off the boards. Kettlebell presses. Sets of five. Bench presses even. And again, you are using elite athletes. These guys get jacked from mowing the lawn. And now they use specialized bodybuilding exercises to build the muscles. And they use these with lower weights and bodybuilding sets and rep schemes.

I absolutely agree with you that improving technique to improve recruitment of muscle matters.....but I am going to give away a secret I've been working on recently. You can also improve the recruitment of muscle to enhance strength and technique. And you can only do this when you drop the weight enough to actually focus on using the muscle. This not necessarily a part of this discussion, but it sort of fits.

4. GS-style training can build attributes, not just display existing ones, and it's more effective than HS. FIGHT ME.
I agree 100 percent. But, having been taught GS technique directly from Valery Fedorenko himself. Having attened the pro day. All of that......you can do GS style training without needing strict GS techniques. And GS techniques can and will inhibit the development of muscle unless supplemented with other training methods (which GS athletes do.) I am not arguing against the training and training parameters of GS. I am arguing that defining the use of kettlebells solely through the lens of modern GS technique is neither necessary nor beneficial.

My point in all of this is to free the kettlebell from limiting dogma. This idea that you have to know "GS" technique and have "GS" form to benefit from KB jerks is bullshit. You can use good old regular jerk form and get a kick ass workout and development. You do not need "GS" technique to jerk! You can jerk like an american and it will be a great jerk.

I no longer kick my hip the the side to support the elbow in one arm LC. Because I switch on the minute. And that does great things for my running.

I find that the KB clean and press done strictly is a great exercise. The hard style two hand swing rocks. The get up, minus a hip thrust, is a manly demonstration of strength and grace.

Stop opening your hand and going limp when you hit the snatch. Hit the snatch hard. Own the snatch. Own. The. Snatch.

I am shocked that you are arguing against owning the snatch.

The KB is the tool of the people and I am giving it back to the people. All of you elitists and bourgeoisie will be toppled.
Image
Damn it.

User avatar
newguy
Top
Posts: 1952
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:32 am

Re: Essential Kettlebelling

Post by newguy » Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:46 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:08 am
newguy wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:35 am
I think you are saying something different though.....maybe even backwards?
As is well known on this forum this is not unusual when I am involved in a conversation.

But let me illustrate something. One guy on SF asks about his snatch form. Someone replies - too much squat, so that the lift is turned from a hinge movement to a squat one. Several orthodox members: it's ok if you are moving a large weight.

For me this is the same as saying: if you are squatting big weights it's ok to good morning out of the hole and round your lower back. See my point? As I said, there are basic principles of a lift that should not be changed, no matter what the goals are. At the same time some other aspects can be changed. In case of a KB snatch - it should remain a hinge lift, but you don't have to do several things that make it economical for the purposes of GS. So it's ok to reverse the bell from the bottom position (as opposed to when it passed to the front in GS), have the arm turned frontal at the top (as opposed to saggital in GS), use different lowering technique etc.

You will get the same comments from HSers if you try advocate more engagement of calf muscles in clean and jerk, as well as deflecting the trunk backwards in jerk, or engaging the calves when you drop the bells onto the chest (as opposed to bending the knees). The argument is the same, different goals for HS etc. I don't see how engaging more muscles and generating more power is serving HS better.

But then again, I guess for each his own. I am glad though to see old fights reincarnated on IGx. Even without the involvement of the female members of each other families in the debate it is still lively. \:D/
I agree with more of what you are saying than not.
it should remain a hinge lift, but you don't have to do several things that make it economical for the purposes of GS. So it's ok to reverse the bell from the bottom position (as opposed to when it passed to the front in GS), have the arm turned frontal at the top (as opposed to saggital in GS), use different lowering technique etc
That is essentially my point. There are aspects of GS technique that you do not need to learn/do and you can still train very effectively.

Post Reply