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Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:25 pm
by Fat Cat
So, the Strong Endurance shit talk on the other thread got me thinking...what is the IGX hivemind consensus about:

1. the value of KBs for running.
2. the exercises of most value for running.
3. the methodology for using KBs as a running-specific conditioning tool.

I know that Cerutty was all about dat heavy-swing life, but I'm wondering what you all know?

Re: Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:52 pm
by Hanglow Joe
I think kettlebells do add value and supplement running.

Heavy swings or snatches as well as Complexes and Chains. Not the Simple and Sinister bullshit, but 20 swings on the minute for 20-30 minutes help.

So from a conditioning perspective it helps, but in order to get better at running you need to run.

Re: Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:59 pm
by SubClaw
Almost every ‘girevik’ competitor does long, slow distance to supplement their training. So, conversely, long cycle and its many variations must be useful for running too.

Re: Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:11 pm
by Fat Cat
Maaaaayyyybe, but not necessarily. Deadlifting might be good for running, but I don't know many people who think that running is good for deadlifting. What does "good for" mean in terms of KBs and running? In my mind, it should either:

1. Make you run faster.
2. Help you run longer.
3. Reduce chances of injury.

Do you think you can make an argument that kettlebells do any of the above? And if you were trying to get that training effect, how would you approach obtaining it?

Re: Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:05 pm
by Ericc
I ran a 100 mile race while doing long cycle -3-5 times a week. I ran one while doing Simple & Sinister 5 days a week.
I've run one while doing a mix of both, plus body weight stuff.
Probably none of it made any difference specifically but probably most of it helped too.
I do know that I ran my first 50k after several years of heavy GS and very light running - I took about 3 months of specific training ultra training (mainly just double long runs on the weekends) while maintaining my GS routine (AKC - one money set, followed by some heavy one arm stuff) and ended up having a great first race experience and placed pretty well. I maintained this for a year or two all the way through my first 50 miler and after which I made some changes. Things became harder when I added speed work in, extra hill repeats and stuff to make me a better runner. My lifting suffered for sure. So I reached that point where there was a trade off and I chose ultras and did my best just to keep whatever strength I could. In retrospect, I probably could have done fairly well just continuing with the GS with only being a little bit slower overall. Now that I'm doing ultras with less emphasis on time and mainly just going for the finish I hope to gain some strength back. Just my experience.

Re: Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:59 am
by Sangoma
Hypothetically speaking, running entails long runs and intervals. KBs can be used for imitating either, probably more so for high intensity. Probably also for supplementary stuff, strength and power.

My wife was a State level runner in her teens (800m and 400m with hurdles). She remembers doing jumps on two parallel benches with a kettlebell. 16 kg, 10 reps, up to 5 sets. Mind you, her bodyweight was 47-49kg, so it was heavy.

Re: Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:52 pm
by Fat Cat
Box jumps holding a kettlebell sounds rugged AF.

Re: Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:39 pm
by Wild Bill
Stumbled.
He is spear thrower.

Re: Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:44 pm
by Fat Cat
Wild Bill wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:39 pm
Stumbled.
He is spear thrower.
He doesn't look black.

Re: Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:58 pm
by Wild Bill
not for running, but still interesting.
always wanted to throw kettlebell for distance, but never tried :)

Re: Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:55 am
by davidc
There may be a trainer who knows how to use kbs as an effective interval training tool. But I don’t know how to use them to improve running other than doing lots of swings and one armed work when the weather is too bad to run.
OTOH, running is fantastic for GS athletes.

Re: Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:49 pm
by Fat Cat
Ericc wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:05 pm
I ran a 100 mile race while doing long cycle -3-5 times a week. I ran one while doing Simple & Sinister 5 days a week.
I've run one while doing a mix of both, plus body weight stuff.
Probably none of it made any difference specifically but probably most of it helped too.
I do know that I ran my first 50k after several years of heavy GS and very light running - I took about 3 months of specific training ultra training (mainly just double long runs on the weekends) while maintaining my GS routine (AKC - one money set, followed by some heavy one arm stuff) and ended up having a great first race experience and placed pretty well. I maintained this for a year or two all the way through my first 50 miler and after which I made some changes. Things became harder when I added speed work in, extra hill repeats and stuff to make me a better runner. My lifting suffered for sure. So I reached that point where there was a trade off and I chose ultras and did my best just to keep whatever strength I could. In retrospect, I probably could have done fairly well just continuing with the GS with only being a little bit slower overall. Now that I'm doing ultras with less emphasis on time and mainly just going for the finish I hope to gain some strength back. Just my experience.
Ericc, you have very impressive experience as a runner, wow! 100 miles seems pretty impossible to me right now. You say that you are still doing some ultras but when I glanced over your log it seemed like lots of walking and gymnastics...am I reading it wrong?

Re: Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:56 pm
by Dunn
A former DD turned strong sport guy, Britt Buckingham, made pretty good use of timed sets of OA swings to train HR and legs to avoid the impact injuries related to running. Ended up running a marathon without killing his knees with the mileage normally associated with training for one, I’d like to say he did about half the normal mileage that is recommended by most training programs. He still ran, but his volume was much less.

Re: Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:31 am
by Ericc
Fat Cat wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:49 pm
Ericc wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:05 pm
I ran a 100 mile race while doing long cycle -3-5 times a week. I ran one while doing Simple & Sinister 5 days a week.
I've run one while doing a mix of both, plus body weight stuff.
Probably none of it made any difference specifically but probably most of it helped too.
I do know that I ran my first 50k after several years of heavy GS and very light running - I took about 3 months of specific training ultra training (mainly just double long runs on the weekends) while maintaining my GS routine (AKC - one money set, followed by some heavy one arm stuff) and ended up having a great first race experience and placed pretty well. I maintained this for a year or two all the way through my first 50 miler and after which I made some changes. Things became harder when I added speed work in, extra hill repeats and stuff to make me a better runner. My lifting suffered for sure. So I reached that point where there was a trade off and I chose ultras and did my best just to keep whatever strength I could. In retrospect, I probably could have done fairly well just continuing with the GS with only being a little bit slower overall. Now that I'm doing ultras with less emphasis on time and mainly just going for the finish I hope to gain some strength back. Just my experience.
Ericc, you have very impressive experience as a runner, wow! 100 miles seems pretty impossible to me right now. You say that you are still doing some ultras but when I glanced over your log it seemed like lots of walking and gymnastics...am I reading it wrong?
No, you're reading it right. I've been doing ultra/race walking for about a year now - no reason other than trying something new and I've found that I enjoy it a lot. But I still average an an ultra race a month or so and my overall time for the longer stuff has been about the same within an hour or so. I've also found that my running hasn't really suffered at all from the speedwalking. So that's a nice bonus. If you have an interest in ultras please feel free to reach out for some encouragement - it's easier than you think.

Re: Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:04 am
by Fat Cat
Well the mountain that I do most of my running on, the one I just posted pictures of in my log, is where they hold the HURT100 so it's on my mind but I would need to vastly increase my mileage before I would ever consider doing that. That said, I can do the course--or any leg of the course--any time I like, so it would be a cool thing to train even if I never did the whole show. 24+ hours of running seems, I don't know, kinda dumb and kinda awesome at the same time.

Re: Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:35 pm
by Shafpocalypse Now
My $0.02

Several years ago I trained these two middle aged nurses with kettlebells. They came in twice a week and learned the basics except I could never get them to snatch or clean.

Their big thing was running 5Ks.

The first race they did together post KBs was about 5 months after I started working with them. Both PRed by like 3 minutes. Which is great, but they were not fast 5kers.

I can only attribute it to the fact that they worked really hard with the kbs and they just got used to being tired.

Re: Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:25 am
by Gav
Fat Cat wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:04 am
Well the mountain that I do most of my running on, the one I just posted pictures of in my log, is where they hold the HURT100 so it's on my mind but I would need to vastly increase my mileage before I would ever consider doing that. That said, I can do the course--or any leg of the course--any time I like, so it would be a cool thing to train even if I never did the whole show. 24+ hours of running seems, I don't know, kinda dumb and kinda awesome at the same time.
That’s my bucket list race. My surname is Hurt so it seems quite fitting. It’s hard because you have to finish each lap in a certain time. Not many people get to the last lap.

Re: Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:13 pm
by Fat Cat
Let me know if you ever get out here to try it, that's my back yard.

Re: Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:46 pm
by Ripe Turd
Ericc wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:05 pm
I ran a 100 mile race while doing long cycle -3-5 times a week. I ran one while doing Simple & Sinister 5 days a week.
I've run one while doing a mix of both, plus body weight stuff.
Probably none of it made any difference specifically but probably most of it helped too.
I do know that I ran my first 50k after several years of heavy GS and very light running - I took about 3 months of specific training ultra training (mainly just double long runs on the weekends) while maintaining my GS routine (AKC - one money set, followed by some heavy one arm stuff) and ended up having a great first race experience and placed pretty well. I maintained this for a year or two all the way through my first 50 miler and after which I made some changes. Things became harder when I added speed work in, extra hill repeats and stuff to make me a better runner. My lifting suffered for sure. So I reached that point where there was a trade off and I chose ultras and did my best just to keep whatever strength I could. In retrospect, I probably could have done fairly well just continuing with the GS with only being a little bit slower overall. Now that I'm doing ultras with less emphasis on time and mainly just going for the finish I hope to gain some strength back. Just my experience.
What are your thoughts on weight training re: rep ranges? Any particular book/routine you would recommend?

I'm shooting for a few 5-10ks this year, and 1-2 marathons next year. Beginner runner

Re: Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:19 pm
by newguy
I think that when you are looking at kettlebells and running there are two ways to look at it.

The first is using KBs as a direct replacement for runs. Replacing miles with KBs to save the legs/knees from impact. I don't know his name and cannot find the site or postings anymore, but there was a guy who did this. He was an SC coach....Georgia or something? His protocol was switching on the minute and his preferred exercise was the half snatch. And not heavy. 12s or 16s switching on the minute and he worked up to 40....50 minutes. He found success with it. I think at the end he was running once a week and doing the KBs twice? But I do not remember.

My preferred method for replacing miles is the once arm long cycle and switching on the minute. I find I can go a bit heavier and it works more muscles in the legs.

The other way to look at it is to use KBs as your strength training for running. You are not replacing miles. Nothing crazy here. Some heavy sets of swings. Double long cycle. Cleans and presses. A few squats.

I've think that KBs build a good base of strength that can translate to running very well.

Re: Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:17 am
by terra
Nothing really fancy at all Fats...

10 minutes of swings with a single KB around 25% bodyweight. For me this was a 16kg KB... Go one handed alternating or two handed, doesn’t matter.
Barefoot, of course.

Not a runner really, but found that this, or snatches, allowed me run longer, faster and without my old right knee tweak.

I think it was simply because with running, you have to keep running. You don’t run for five sets of five. With running the next stride has to be similar to the last stride AND timed with a certain breath rate... Kind of like how the swings force you to keep going at a cadence, it helps you deal with that feeling of being ‘pushed’ along by your momentum. You can surrender into it with more ease.

Oh, and there was a sense of more push-off at the end of the stride, which gave a nice spring to the gait.probably just a consequence of the swings tendency to open the front of the hip and activate that extra little bit of hip thrust from the glute.

Re: Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:54 pm
by Ericc
Ripe Turd wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:46 pm
Ericc wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:05 pm
I ran a 100 mile race while doing long cycle -3-5 times a week. I ran one while doing Simple & Sinister 5 days a week.
I've run one while doing a mix of both, plus body weight stuff.
Probably none of it made any difference specifically but probably most of it helped too.
I do know that I ran my first 50k after several years of heavy GS and very light running - I took about 3 months of specific training ultra training (mainly just double long runs on the weekends) while maintaining my GS routine (AKC - one money set, followed by some heavy one arm stuff) and ended up having a great first race experience and placed pretty well. I maintained this for a year or two all the way through my first 50 miler and after which I made some changes. Things became harder when I added speed work in, extra hill repeats and stuff to make me a better runner. My lifting suffered for sure. So I reached that point where there was a trade off and I chose ultras and did my best just to keep whatever strength I could. In retrospect, I probably could have done fairly well just continuing with the GS with only being a little bit slower overall. Now that I'm doing ultras with less emphasis on time and mainly just going for the finish I hope to gain some strength back. Just my experience.
What are your thoughts on weight training re: rep ranges? Any particular book/routine you would recommend?

I'm shooting for a few 5-10ks this year, and 1-2 marathons next year. Beginner runner
I think Pavel's Simple & Sinister plan is solid for runners - maybe cut it back to 2-3 days a week for high mile weeks but I've done the full plan, five days a week right up to taper week with no issue. The whole thing is designed as a simple strength plan for athletes and/or first responders who can't afford to be sore or beat up from their workouts - makes it perfect for running in my experience. Good luck with training.

Re: Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:52 am
by Fat Cat
Ericc, I totally agree re: SS, I really, really like it for people who are active doing other things.

Re: Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:20 pm
by Hanglow Joe
SS sucks. There I said it. Most overrated program ever. At best it's a finisher. I tested it with an 88, 2 years ago without doing the program. Not a fan of one hand swings either. Would rather do Two hand swings or snatches.

I run 5 miles 3 days a week because it's summer and I enjoy the nice weather. I don't run on kettlebell days. Currently finishing up Geoff Neupert's The Long Haul and in the final week. Rigged it. Instead of doing the complex for 2.5 minutes straight and then resting. I'm doing an exercise for 30 seconds every 54 seconds. Finish it quicker, more fresh and without bad reps.

Re: Kettlebells for Running

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:42 pm
by Fat Cat
You've said that before, but I think SS is plenty if you're training a hard sport like BJJ four or five times a week. IMHO, of course.