Why We Fight

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Fat Cat
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Why We Fight

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:18 pm

Excellent documentary about the military industrial complex, the causes of American warfighting, and the filthy scum like Perle and Wolfowitz that must be eradicated.
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by DrDonkeyLove » Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:45 pm

Where seen, movies, video, TV?
Any particular axe grinding from a lib, conservative, or other perspective?
Mao wrote:Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party

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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:48 pm

I netflix'd it. I would imagine that you would consider it a liberal bias, but it is filled with interviews with McCain, Richard Perle and a dozen former military and intelligence officials, and also the speeches of Dwight Eisenhower.
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by GoDogGo! » Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:43 pm

I recently re-read Eisenhower's entire "military-industrial complex" speech, and the man was the second coming of Nostradamus.
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:51 pm

GoDogGo! wrote:I recently re-read Eisenhower's entire "military-industrial complex" speech, and the man was the second coming of Nostradamus.
Yes, it's pretty amazing that he had that kind of vision and the courage to express it straight into the livingrooms of the American people. His speech actually is at the very core of the movie and it is incredibly prescient. I highly recommend it GDG. It actually makes the point that Eisenhower was one of the people who presided over the American defense buildup in WW2 and understood its corrupting implications. I leave you with one thought: the USA, land of the free home of the brave, now spends more on defense than all of Europe, Russia and China combined.
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Turdacious » Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:56 am

Fat Cat wrote: I leave you with one thought: the USA, land of the free home of the brave, now spends more on defense than all of Europe, Russia and China combined.
Keep in mind that on its face, this is a largely worthless statistic.
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by GoDogGo! » Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:36 am

Fat Cat wrote:
GoDogGo! wrote:I recently re-read Eisenhower's entire "military-industrial complex" speech, and the man was the second coming of Nostradamus.
Yes, it's pretty amazing that he had that kind of vision and the courage to express it straight into the livingrooms of the American people. His speech actually is at the very core of the movie and it is incredibly prescient. I highly recommend it GDG. It actually makes the point that Eisenhower was one of the people who presided over the American defense buildup in WW2 and understood its corrupting implications. I leave you with one thought: the USA, land of the free home of the brave, now spends more on defense than all of Europe, Russia and China combined.
I may have heard an excerpt from it on the radio. Does it contain an interview with a former CIA employee, who left when the Soviet Bloc fell over and all the CIA admins started talking about "We have to find a new enemy?"
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:42 pm

DEATHTURD wrote:
Fat Cat wrote: I leave you with one thought: the USA, land of the free home of the brave, now spends more on defense than all of Europe, Russia and China combined.
Keep in mind that on its face, this is a largely worthless statistic.
No it isn't. Add up how many people that is, compare it to how many people are represented by the US Armed Forces and you can see a huge disparity between per capita defense spending in our country versus the rest of the world.
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:43 pm

GoDogGo! wrote:
Fat Cat wrote:
GoDogGo! wrote:I recently re-read Eisenhower's entire "military-industrial complex" speech, and the man was the second coming of Nostradamus.
Yes, it's pretty amazing that he had that kind of vision and the courage to express it straight into the livingrooms of the American people. His speech actually is at the very core of the movie and it is incredibly prescient. I highly recommend it GDG. It actually makes the point that Eisenhower was one of the people who presided over the American defense buildup in WW2 and understood its corrupting implications. I leave you with one thought: the USA, land of the free home of the brave, now spends more on defense than all of Europe, Russia and China combined.
I may have heard an excerpt from it on the radio. Does it contain an interview with a former CIA employee, who left when the Soviet Bloc fell over and all the CIA admins started talking about "We have to find a new enemy?"
Yes.
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by DrDonkeyLove » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:44 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
DEATHTURD wrote:
Fat Cat wrote: I leave you with one thought: the USA, land of the free home of the brave, now spends more on defense than all of Europe, Russia and China combined.
Keep in mind that on its face, this is a largely worthless statistic.
No it isn't. Add up how many people that is, compare it to how many people are represented by the US Armed Forces and you can see a huge disparity between per capita defense spending in our country versus the rest of the world.
This is one of those things that drives me crazy. I'm not strategically savvy enough to know if the good that's come from our ultra mega worldwide military reach outweighs the negative economics of all of us subsidizing the rest of the free world's freedom. Our tax supported military keeps a lid on lots of world mischief that could really fuck things up for America. OTOH the countries we protect like Canada, S. Korea, Japan, and assorted Euros get to keep more of their GDP at our expense. I guess I'll just go along with whatever Andy says. Except for his love of W, he's usually right.
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:56 pm

The problem is that we are often defending the freedom of corporations to exploit people, as much or more than we are protecting the freedom individuals. For example, if every terrorist magically disappeared from the planet, do you think the government would relinquish the powers it has aggregated, using terrorism as its justification? It seems unlikely, doesn't it? They will just look for a new justification for keeping the military-industrial complex rolling. Or at least, that has been the pattern thus far.
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Pinky » Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:02 pm

Fat Cat wrote:It actually makes the point that Eisenhower was one of the people who presided over the American defense buildup in WW2 and understood its corrupting implications.
All government buildups are corrupting because they all involve the government doling out money. The cost of buying politicians is trivial compared to the money they can dish out.
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:07 pm

That's a good point, Washington (yeah, that one) warned against standing armies and their corrosive influence in his farewell address. Wonder what he'd have to say about our predicament. The interesting thing about Eisenhower was he thought that it was necessary at the time, but he came to understand that it was a deal with the devil, and that the cooperation of government, industry and military could become a Faustian bargain.
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Pinky » Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:16 pm

Washington also warned against getting entangled in other countries' affairs.
"The biggest problems that we’re facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all."

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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:47 pm

Washington was a pretty deep cat.
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by DARTH » Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:34 pm

Remeber Ike wanted to call it The Militrary, Congressional Industrial Complex.

He was not advocating a weak defense or isolationisim, he wanted us to acctually critically look at what weapons and systems were needed and usefull and eliminate POS gear and programs that did more for corperations, congressmen and retireing and retired Generals.




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Re: Why We Fight

Post by GoDogGo! » Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:48 am

COUGHsopreyCOUGH
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Turdacious » Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:00 am

Fat Cat wrote:
DEATHTURD wrote:
Fat Cat wrote: I leave you with one thought: the USA, land of the free home of the brave, now spends more on defense than all of Europe, Russia and China combined.
Keep in mind that on its face, this is a largely worthless statistic.
No it isn't. Add up how many people that is, compare it to how many people are represented by the US Armed Forces and you can see a huge disparity between per capita defense spending in our country versus the rest of the world.
Europe is largely dependent on us for their security. We're footing their bill.
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:51 am

DARTH wrote:Remeber Ike wanted to call it The Militrary, Congressional Industrial Complex.
I did not know that, Darth; but actually the film makes abundantly clear that congress is the third spoke in the wheel of the Man. In comparison to the money to be made, buying politicians is cheap.
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:52 am

DEATHTURD wrote:
Fat Cat wrote:
DEATHTURD wrote:
Fat Cat wrote: I leave you with one thought: the USA, land of the free home of the brave, now spends more on defense than all of Europe, Russia and China combined.
Keep in mind that on its face, this is a largely worthless statistic.
No it isn't. Add up how many people that is, compare it to how many people are represented by the US Armed Forces and you can see a huge disparity between per capita defense spending in our country versus the rest of the world.
Europe is largely dependent on us for their security. We're footing their bill.
And don't you sometimes wonder why? Why both we and they allow that state of affairs to continue?
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by johno » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:27 am

In the last century, Europe fucked up repeatedly, and the US twice sacrificed blood & treasure to help straighten things out. Actually, we sacrificed three times, if you include facing down the USSR.
So now, they and we enjoy a Pax Americana throughout Europe. And much of the Pacific.
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Are full of passionate intensity.

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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Turdacious » Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:05 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
DEATHTURD wrote:
Fat Cat wrote:
DEATHTURD wrote:
Fat Cat wrote: I leave you with one thought: the USA, land of the free home of the brave, now spends more on defense than all of Europe, Russia and China combined.
Keep in mind that on its face, this is a largely worthless statistic.
No it isn't. Add up how many people that is, compare it to how many people are represented by the US Armed Forces and you can see a huge disparity between per capita defense spending in our country versus the rest of the world.
Europe is largely dependent on us for their security. We're footing their bill.
And don't you sometimes wonder why? Why both we and they allow that state of affairs to continue?
I find it interesting that you seem to post about mass atrocities around the world more than anyone here, but you don't seem to think we should do anything to fix these kind of problems.
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule

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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Hebrew Hammer » Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:12 pm

Fatty, you'd also enjoy the documentary on Chamberlain called "Why We Won't Fight," subtitled: "The joy of appeasement, of assuming the rest of the world follows our high-tea etiquette, and of living life without a spine, heart or conscience."

If you'd like to know why we fight, see if in your next year's list of classes at the community college, whether there's a class on St. Augustine, Machiavelli and Hobbes, and if there's another class on 20th century history. Whatever you do, don't get a job and join the ugly capitalist war-mongering machine.
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:48 pm

johno wrote:In the last century, Europe fucked up repeatedly, and the US twice sacrificed blood & treasure to help straighten things out. Actually, we sacrificed three times, if you include facing down the USSR.
So now, they and we enjoy a Pax Americana throughout Europe. And much of the Pacific.
LOL. It's just that simple, right? Sorry man, but it's all about where you are standing. What would you bet the Russians think that THEY sacrificed blood and treasure to sort out the Nazis for us? Even your term is alarming, "Pax Americana" is a play on "Pax Romana", which lasted 200 years and ended in tyranny. I can think of another country that is 200 years in and headed for tyranny. All of you should pay serious attention to the fact that we are not the fucking roman empire and we shouldn't aspire to anything like its bloated, leader worshiping past.
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:55 pm

This post was made by PlainTalk who is currently on your ignore list.

But you just can't bring yourself to ignore me, can you Peter?
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