Why We Fight

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GoDogGo!
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by GoDogGo! » Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:16 pm

If any other proof was needed of this film's premise, Iraq would be it. I said it before and I'll say it again: Iraq is about making bagloads of $$$ for Hallicheney-Bushco and friends. Afghanistan was like shooting a mad dog in the street, and should have taken about as long.

There was a problem there, of course. The job wasn't big enough to justify an enormous military presence and ongoing infrastructure and support, to be provided by a private companies. Nor would it cause enough fuss to cause speculators to drive oil prices up and reap record profits for energy companies. But now, hey! We're building an Iraq embassy big enough to BE SEEN FROM ORBIT. Does this sound like there was ever a need or intention for an exit strategy? Nigga please.

Thank god we don't use the same policy, of creating problems to make money for private companies, domestically. If we did we'd have record numbers of people in prison, and a move to privatize prisons.

Oh, shit.
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Fat Cat
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:31 pm

GDG has outdone me. Good post.
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by johno » Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:54 pm

Fat Cat wrote: All of you should pay serious attention to the fact that we are not the fucking roman empire and we shouldn't aspire to anything like its bloated, leader worshiping past.
1 - I didn't say we should mimic the Roman Empire.
2 - In your idealism, don't minimize the RE's contribution to civilization. Nor the US's.

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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:04 pm

LOL @ calling me an idealist. You are the one trying to compare us to a Platonic imperial form. Just watch the fucking movie and then tell me what you think. As it is, you don't have much purpose here other than to defend some criticisms you imagine me to be making.
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Gene
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Gene » Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:12 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Keynesianism

It's been our official policy since the 1940s.

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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:15 pm

Wiki Article on Military Keynesianism wrote:This is a specific variation on Keynesian economics, developed by English economist John Maynard Keynes. Instances commonly supplied as examples of such policies are Germany in the 1930s and the United States in the 1980s,
Well that's alarming, we pattern our military-industrial complex on Hitler's model. How revealing.
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Pinky
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Pinky » Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:00 pm

The most important part of that wiki link is the discussion of the broken window fallacy.
"The biggest problems that we’re facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all."

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Re: Why We Fight

Post by johno » Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:12 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
DEATHTURD wrote: Europe is largely dependent on us for their security. We're footing their bill.
And don't you sometimes wonder why? Why both we and they allow that state of affairs to continue?
Next time you post a question, remind us that you don't really want an anwer.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:39 pm

What I don't want are stupid answers, which yours was, and further, it was hardly even your answer since all you did was repeat the neocon party line. There is no such thing as Pax Americana, we are currently engaged in two separate national conflicts, a war on terror and a war on drugs. In other words, you have failed to make a single interesting or fact-based point.
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by DrDonkeyLove » Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:39 am

GoDogGo! wrote:If any other proof was needed of this film's premise, Iraq would be it. I said it before and I'll say it again: Iraq is about making bagloads of $$$ for Hallicheney-Bushco and friends. Afghanistan was like shooting a mad dog in the street, and should have taken about as long.

There was a problem there, of course. The job wasn't big enough to justify an enormous military presence and ongoing infrastructure and support, to be provided by a private companies. Nor would it cause enough fuss to cause speculators to drive oil prices up and reap record profits for energy companies. But now, hey! We're building an Iraq embassy big enough to BE SEEN FROM ORBIT. Does this sound like there was ever a need or intention for an exit strategy? Nigga please.

Thank god we don't use the same policy, of creating problems to make money for private companies, domestically. If we did we'd have record numbers of people in prison, and a move to privatize prisons.

Oh, shit.
Mucho truth about the prison situation. You know that moment just before you get the horrible flu where you say 'WTF is going on here, somethings wrong'? I'm starting to get that feeling about America. Thank G-d congress is dealing with the steroids in MLB issue and Britney is getting the help she needs.
Mao wrote:Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party

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GoDogGo!
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by GoDogGo! » Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:05 am

DrDonkeyLove wrote: Mucho truth about the prison situation. You know that moment just before you get the horrible flu where you say 'WTF is going on here, somethings wrong'? I'm starting to get that feeling about America. Thank G-d congress is dealing with the steroids in MLB issue and Britney is getting the help she needs.
The Q of course, is what to do, and I have no fucking idea, other than keep alive, raise my boys, and keep an eye out for countries with no extradition as they approach draftable age. ( I would gladly ship them off to the National Guard if it was, you know, the national guard, but as it stands, I will not throw them into Moloch's furnace.)

For those of you who think that Iraq is about making us more America safer, ask yourself: do you feel more secure?

In case you were wondering why not, it's because war isn't SUPPOSED to make the citizens feel safer. It's supposed to make them feel more afraid.
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by johno » Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:44 am

Fat Cat wrote:There is no such thing as Pax Americana,
You are an infant. Read some history...get some sense of proportion.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

W.B. Yeats

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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Fat Cat » Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:28 am

The American Revolution
1775-1783

The Indian Wars
1775-1890

Shay's Rebellion
1786-1787
Rebellion
Anti-(state)Government Rebels vs. Massachusetts

The Whiskey Rebellion
1794
Rebellion
Anti-Tax Rebels in Western Pennsylvania

Quasi-War With France
1798-1800
Inter-State (Naval) War
France

Fries's Rebellion "The Hot Water War"
1799
Rebellion
Anti-Tax Rebels in Pennsylvania

The Barbary Wars
1800-1815
Inter-State War
The Barbary States
(Tripoli, Algiers & Morocco)

The War of 1812
1812-1815
Inter-State War
Great Britain
The Growing & Troubled Republic

Primary Name of Conflict Dates of Conflict
(U.S. Involvement Only)
Type of Conflict Primary Opponent(s)
of the United States

Mexican-American War
1846-1848
Inter-State War
Mexico

U.S. Slave Rebellions
1800-1865
Slave Rebellions
Various Slave groups

"Bleeding Kansas"
1855-1860
Civil War (state of Kansas)
Pro-Slavery vs. Anti-Slavery Kansans

Brown's Raid on Harper's Ferry
1859
Rebellion
Anti-Slavery Rebels (Led by John Brown)

United States Civil War
1861-1865
Civil War
United States (The North)
vs.
The Confederate States (The South)


U.S. Intervention in Hawaiian Revolution
1893
Internal Rebellion & Foreign Intervention

The Spanish-American War
1898
Inter-State War

U.S. Intervention in Samoan Civil War
1898-1899
Civil War & Foreign Intervention

U.S.-Philippine War
1899-1902
Colonial War, War of Imperialism

Boxer Rebellion
1900
Internal Rebellion & Foreign Intervention
Chinese Government & "Boxer" Rebels

The Moro Wars
1901-1913
Colonial Wars
Philippine Muslim Rebels

U.S. Intervention in Panamanian Revolution
1903
Secessionist Revolution & Foreign Intervention
Colombia

The Banana Wars
1909-1933
Civil Wars & Foreign Intervention
Various Rebel Groups In Central America


U.S. Occupation of Vera Cruz
1914
Inter-State War
Mexico

Pershing's Raid Into Mexico
1916-1917
Inter-State, Border War
Mexican Government & Mexican Rebels ("Bandits")

World War I
1917-1918 (American involvement only)
Inter-State War
Germany

Allied Intervention in Russian Civil War
1919-1921
Civil War & Foreign Intervention
Russian Bolshevik (Soviet) Government

World War II
1941-1945 (American involvement only)
Inter-State War
Germany, Japan & Italy

The Cold War
1945-1991
Global Inter-State Cold War
The Soviet Union & Communist China

The Korean War
1950-1953
Inter-State War
North Korea & China

The Second Indochina War "Vietnam War"
1956-1975
Civil War, Inter-State War
North Vietnam & South Vietnamese "Viet Cong" Rebels

U.S. Intervention in Lebanon
1958
Civil War & Foreign Intervention
No real foe for U.S. Troops landed to support Lebanon Gov.

Dominican Intervention
1965
Civil War & Foreign Intervention
Rebels in the Dominican Republic

The Mayaguez Rescue Operation

News Story 1975 (May 15)
Hostage Rescue & Inter-State Conflict
Khmer Rouge Guerrillas (the new government of Cambodia)

Iranian Hostage Rescue "Desert One" or "Operation Eagle Claw"
1980 (April 25)
Hostage Rescue & Inter-State Conflict
Iran

U.S. Libya Conflict
1981, 1986
Inter-State War
Libya

U.S. Intervention in Lebanon
1982-1984
Civil War,Foreign Intervention & Inter-State War
Syria & Various Muslim and Leftist Lebanese Militias

U.S. Invasion of Grenada
1983
Inter-State War
Marxist Grenadian Faction & Cuba

The Tanker War

"Operation Earnest Will"
1987-1988
Inter-State War
Iran

U.S. Invasion of Panama
1989
Inter-State War
Panama

Second Persian Gulf War "Operation Desert Storm"
1991
Inter-State War
Iraq

"No-Fly Zone" War
1991-2003
Inter-State War
Iraq

U.S. Intervention in Somalia
1992-1994
Civil War & Foreign Intervention
Various Somali Militias

NATO Intervention in Bosnia (Operation Deliberate Force) Summary
1994-1995
Civil War,Foreign Intervention & Inter-State War
Bosnian Serb Rebels

U.S. Occupation of Haiti
1994
Foreign Intervention
Haitian Government

U.S. Embassy bombings and strikes on Afghanistan and Sudan (The bin Laden War)
August, 1998
Terrorist Conflict

"Desert Fox" Campaign (part of U.S./Iraq Conflict)
December, 1998
Inter-State War
Iraq

Kosovo War
1999
Civil War, Foreign Intervention & Inter-State War
Yugoslavia/Serbia

Attack on the USS Cole
October 12, 2000
Terrorist Conflict
Terrorists associated with Osama bin Laden

Attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon
September 11, 2001
Terrorist Conflict
Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida organization

Afghanistan War (Operation Enduring Freedom)
October 7, 2001-Present
War against Terrorism
The Taliban and Osama bin Laden's Al-Qaida organization

Third Persian Gulf War "Operation Iraqi Freedom"
March 19, 2003-Present
Inter-State War
Iraq
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Gene
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Gene » Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:45 am

There was also...

Shay's Rebellion (~1785)
Connecticut - during the Confederation. Mercenaries hired by Boston banking interests to collect rent and then suppress rebellion.

Dorr's Rebellion (~1820)
Rhode Island - Voting rights of non property owners.

Turner's Rebellion (1848)
Slave revolt. Lead to laws that forbade teaching a slave to read and write.

"Pacification" of American Aborigines
~1600 - ongoing

Japan (mid 1800s)
"Opening" Japan.

Korea (1880)
Intervention in Korea to "protect US interests".

Huk Rebellion (~1950)
Suppression of anti US revolt in Philippines.

French Indochina (1946-1954)
Material Support of campaign against Viet Minh.

Guatemala - 1954
CIA sponsored coup against Arbenz Gov't.

El Salvador/HondurasGuatemala
1950-1989
White Hand/CIA operations against "progressive groups" until mid 1960s. Intervention in El Salvadoran Civil War and Guatemalan uprisings.

Cuba - late 1950s.
Covert support of Castro by CIA and organized crime.

Bay of Pigs/Operation Mongoose
1960 to ~1965
Botched invasion that Kennedy hoped would "dispose" of over a thousand highly trained guerrillas who "wanted to go back to Cuba anyhow".

Covert operations continued under control of AG Robert Kennedy. Second largest CIA post in the world based on the campus of the University of Florida at Miami.

UN Operations in Congo Civil War. (~1964)
CIA assistance to suppress Katangan rebels.

Operation White Star/"Secret War"
1963-1975
CIA operations in Laos and Cambodia. More bomb tonnage dropped on Laos than entire tonnage dropped during World War II.

Operation Phoenix
CIA sponsored death squad program in Viet Nam. Director of Phoenix Program, William Colby, later headed CIA. Colby also helped to found National Coalition to Ban Handguns (now part of the Brady Campaign) in conjunction with Rev. Sullivan. Said, "I learned that guns were dangerous in the CIA".

NCBH's twin sister, Handgun Control Inc, was founded by Dow Chemical Salesman Pete Shields with the assistance of CIA employee Edward O. Welles.

These CIA people sure do some awfully interesting things, don't they?


State Department "Assistance" Programs in South America, including assistance to Operation Condor.
1960s to 1980s
US participation in police training to suppress rebellions. Assistance to Pinochet and right wing governments in Argentina and Chile. Support of French advisors to Chilean and Argentine governments based upon "Algerian Model".

Support of Afghan Rebellion (1979 to ~1992)
Covert operation to induce Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Included cooperation of Saudi intelligence and Pakistani ISI. Later some groups were sponsored by ISI and Saudi intelligence for nation building in Afghanistan. Lead to Taliban.

Bombing of Libya in retaliation for Iranian sponsored bombing of discoteque in Berlin. (mid 1980s)

Covert Support for South African Forces in Namibia and Angola (Korvoet). Later direct support to MPLA and UNITA. (mid 1970s to 1988).

ATF/FBI fiasco in Waco TX. 81 adults and children died in a botched attempt to end the stand off at Mt. Carmel in Waco TX. FBI HRT units used "pyrotechnic" rounds to induce the Branch Davidians to surrender. FBI and ATF were later chastened at Congressional hearings for "poor judgment".

Don't recall but there are probably others...

Gene
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Re: Why We Fight

Post by Turdacious » Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:21 pm

@ Twins powers ACTIVATE!
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