Tom Furman - Silat

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cqc10
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Tom Furman - Silat

Post by cqc10 » Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:36 pm

Tom - I've tried to research a little on Silat and try to get a sense of what it's all about.

I was wondering if you could briefly state why you like it so much and what it has to offer? It sounds like it's where most of your energy over the years has been spent and I was curious what you felt its strengths really were.

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Post by TomFurman » Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:42 am

I was exposed to Indonesian arts in my teens since my first martial arts experience after middle school wrestling, was Willy Wetzel's Poekulon Tjimande. There are alot of stories about this man,...and I know the truth. I verified it with Uncle Bill and Victor DeThouars privately. They knew I was not a bullshitter when I told them the stories. I spent most of my teens training contact in a boxing ring using modified Wing Chun,(James Yimm Lee's book), boxing,(from Rochester Boxing Club and reading about Karate's Joe Lewis using it in the early 70's), and kicking from many sources. We also fought with shinai and the old Safe-T-Face headgear, and hockey gloves. We sparred with padded nunchuks as well. I had wrestled in middle school, so doing takedowns for the ground and pound was normal street fighting in Western PA, where wrestling is very strong. We began to incorporate knees and elbows from reading about Thais and from Bando influence.

After being in Florida a while, I wanted to jet charge my learning so I traveled to the Smokey Mountain Camp. I trained from 7am till 10pm for seven straight days with Dan Inosanto, Master Chai, Larry Hartsell, Burt Poe, Tim Tackett, Cliff Stewart, Cliff Lenderman, Graciela Casillas, Francis Fong, and also Catch Wrestler Tim Geohagin.
Previous to this Guru Inosanto published an article about Penjak Silat and Paul DeThouars. I couldn't figure out why Dan would study this art since he had like 27 Filipino instructors, 7 Wing Chun instructors, many Tai Chi instructors, and had been a student of Ed Parker and Bruce Lee. Dan was just highly impressed with the efficiency, angulation, destructive output, leverage, and knowledge of anatomical weakness presented by Pendekar Paul. It was alot for me to deal with. Of the group, Master Chai's training, Dan's Kali-Silat, and Cliff Stewart's WAR impressed me.

When I got back home, I later attended what would be an Inosanto seminar, but he had an ear infection and could not travel. So Burt Richardson and Paul DeThouars attended. Pendekar Paul was INCREDIBLE.
He tossed us like ragdolls, coached a Thai fighter on power kicking, countered a cop in a demo trying to cuff him, and walked out of every lock we could get him in. He threw me on cement and I bounced. He actually showed us what mastery of motion and a combat mindset can do. Brilliant. He felt like Rickson Gracie did on the ground when I rolled with him, but this was standup. Imagine walking on ice with about a 200lb sandbag on your shoulder. This is how unstable you feel with the Pendekar.

Well this sent my brain on fire. I attended every seminar with Dan Inosanto (over 100 hours), trained with Cass Magda, Herman Suwanda, Uncle Bill DeThouars, and Harold Koning(privately). I watched hours of video tape and trained with my training partner Victor Rivera in Palm Beach applying this technology. I continue to train with Bruno Cruicchi as he trains with the silent, but deadly, Tristan Sutrisno.

Silat---
Strong Points--comprehensive, weapons, hands, elbows, knees, kicks, locking, ground, strategy, multiple opponents, and deep, deep, deep.

Weaknesses--Not too much sparring in the beginning, no counter for counter groundwork, not enough contact (Thai Pad) work. Lots of backyard training and old school diplomacy (you can get kicked out without notice).

The Cure--Train for strength and old school endurance. Roll like a Jits guy, do Pad work like a Thai, weapons spar with contact, and do tactical work with firearms, assault, and scenario based training. (including guns).

I am working on the cure now. I don't speak for all silat, but many of them try to avoid things like Jits rolling, hard cardio work, and the reality of the anaerobic stress of Thai training ala Buakaw. There are many traditionalists. The Djuru, Sambut, and other traditional practices have their place as DVD's of combative data, but you gotta sweat first.

My philosophy is ROKSilat
R=Reactions (sprawling vs a tackle, spear vs a punch)
O=Options (strategies, and training methods)
K=Kinetics (mechanics, anatomy, physics, anatomy)
Silat means "To Fight"
Thus "ROKSilat" also,,....it "rocks alot" ;-))

Hope this helps. I wish you CMA guys other than Makena who writes with incredible detail and heart, would explain how Pakua and Hsing I deal with modern violence. Batboy has done wonders with explaining his approach of training with Steve C and the suggestion of a Westside like approach of Boxing and doing Judo.

How 'bout it CQC10 ?? Didn't Tom Kier beat some sense into you with Kali and Silat?? :)
"There is only one God, and he doesn't dress like that". - - Captain America

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Post by bill fox » Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:49 pm

When can we expect "THE DVD"!?
"my body stayin' vicious, I be up in the gym, just workin' on my fitness"

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Post by Trip » Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:10 pm

I wish you CMA guys other than Makena who writes with incredible detail and heart
Well, I won't pretend to write with FC's eloquence, but I will try to expound.

I train Hsing-I with Allen Pittman and his student "Big Al" Carroll. Pittman studied with R. Smith and been to Taiwan to study with the Hung brothers, written several books and been the subject of one or two. His form is impeccable and he is able to issue great power. When training with him we work mostly form and traditional applications.

Big Al is a former heavyweight pro boxer and he is big. Big Al is the Yang part of the equation. We train form and applications, but a lot of work is done with focus mitts and various pads. Big Al is great for coming up with various applications.

I have not done any FC type sparring with either one of these guys, but my years of judo and aikido randori give me a pretty good feel for what will work and what won't. Some of the people who we train with like to hit and be hit, many do not. At 6'4" and 225# I have to practice at the level of who I am training with.

Hsing-I offers a great offensive mentality, straight in, crush, demolish, etc in the 5 fists and also offers a wealth of movement practice, joint mobility, stretching and strengthening in the animals.

It fits me and many of the people I train with have become good friends.

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Post by cqc10 » Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:08 pm

This is an amazing response Tom and I greatly appreciate you taking the time to provide such helpful information. One reason I asked the question is that after watching all of Cliff Stewart's WAR clips on his website, and seeing other Silat application clips on the web, I notice many similarities to bagua. The similarities seem to exist in the strategy, angulation, and targets on the opponents body. The body movement is quite different, and how we move and generate power is different too, but its very interesting stuff.
TomFurman wrote:When I got back home, I later attended what would be an Inosanto seminar, but he had an ear infection and could not travel. So Burt Richardson and Paul DeThouars attended. Pendekar Paul was INCREDIBLE. He tossed us like ragdolls, coached a Thai fighter on power kicking, countered a cop in a demo trying to cuff him, and walked out of every lock we could get him in. He threw me on cement and I bounced. He actually showed us what mastery of motion and a combat mindset can do. Brilliant. He felt like Rickson Gracie did on the ground when I rolled with him, but this was standup. Imagine walking on ice with about a 200lb sandbag on your shoulder. This is how unstable you feel with the Pendekar.
This is nearly identical to my experience when I met my bagua instructor. He seemed to be able to uproot and unbalance me effortlessly. He could literally end up behind me before I knew what happened. It absolutely blew my mind. He wasn't meeting my attacks with direct force. He was using knees, elbows, and palm strikes but they seemed to appear out of nowhere after he uprooted me. You couldn't seem to stand in a stable manner because you were always so 'casually' unbalanced.
TomFurman wrote: Silat---
Strong Points--comprehensive, weapons, hands, elbows, knees, kicks, locking, ground, strategy, multiple opponents, and deep, deep, deep.

Weaknesses--Not too much sparring in the beginning, no counter for counter groundwork, not enough contact (Thai Pad) work. Lots of backyard training and old school diplomacy (you can get kicked out without notice).

The Cure--Train for strength and old school endurance. Roll like a Jits guy, do Pad work like a Thai, weapons spar with contact, and do tactical work with firearms, assault, and scenario based training. (including guns).
The strong points and weaknesses you mentioned are the same with bagua.

Your cure is what interest me. This has been my quest in my own training. The last few years I have really gained an appreciation for the power of some of the traditional training methodologies. Taught correctly, it REALLY can develop some amazing attributes. However, without strong conditioning of the body, pad work, and sparring, you aren't going to be able to bring it all together when you need it.

You have to learn to be so 'soft' with bagua. It is maddening trying to learn to utilize your body so efficiently. My instructor, however, does understand how much strength matters. It takes awhile to develop a proper bagua body, but once done, you can now express your bodies strength along the proper biomechanically efficient pathways. (targeting, of course, the subtle and often hidden physiological weaknesses of your opponent)

I condition like a MMA guy would. (kb swings, sledgehammer work, bw drills, etc) I combine that with bagua specific exercises that train body movement while also strengthening the body.

I do 2-man work, push hands, and other traditional drills, but I also do pad work and sparring when I am able. I was cross-training last year in BJJ. This allowed me to learn and improve on my ground game while also casually trying out some bagua.

Bagua is so deep. After one year of bagua, I realized that my previous two decades of training in other styles never got below the surface. It was humbling to realize how shallow my skill truly was. I was never 'great', but I was always one of the better ones in class. Finding out how effortlessly someone like my instructor could take me out was a shock, but it also prepared me to start over in some respects and learn like a kid again.

Knee problems the last year have hindered a lot of this but I think I'm on the rebound. (found a very good acupuncturist who has worked miracles so far)
TomFurman wrote:Hope this helps. I wish you CMA guys other than Makena who writes with incredible detail and heart, would explain how Pakua and Hsing I deal with modern violence. Batboy has done wonders with explaining his approach of training with Steve C and the suggestion of a Westside like approach of Boxing and doing Judo.

How 'bout it CQC10 ?? Didn't Tom Kier beat some sense into you with Kali and Silat?? :)
HA . . Tom Kier is a scary guy. That was where I first started to notice some distinct similarities with bagua. :-)

Now you know why I want your DVD so bad. 8^)

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Post by Dave » Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:16 pm

Bagua is so deep. After one year of bagua, I realized that my previous two decades of training in other styles never got below the surface. It was humbling to realize how shallow my skill truly was. I was never 'great', but I was always one of the better ones in class. Finding out how effortlessly someone like my instructor could take me out was a shock, but it also prepared me to start over in some respects and learn like a kid again.
Yes.
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Post by Mickey O'neil » Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:21 pm

This is a great thread. I am a total newbie when it comes to MA and IMA but I am very interested in both. Lots of good info here.

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Post by Hagbard » Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:25 pm

TOM

STOP EDITING AND GIVE US THE GODDAMNED 'CURE' ALREADY!

thank you,

Ralph

PS great posts.
?

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Post by Dave » Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:26 pm

Nuggetized
Fat Cat wrote: People have never really seen true mastery, so they don't even know that they don't have it.

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Post by GoDogGo! » Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:04 pm

Hagbard Celine wrote:TOM

STOP EDITING AND GIVE US THE GODDAMNED 'CURE' ALREADY!
Seconded. "Perfect" is the enemy of "done."

GDG!
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Post by Fat Cat » Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:11 pm

Great thread. =D>
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