How to intellectually destroy a vegetarian by Garm.

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How to intellectually destroy a vegetarian by Garm.

Post by Gav » Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:10 pm

Mahalo, Comrade, for your lucid thoughts and friendly tone.

I will not disagree that it hurts animals to kill them and eat them. Nor do I dispute that I do not 'need' to eat them. I will, however, have to disagree when that is equated to killing or harming people, or the keeping of human slaves. There is also a clear distinction between eating a hamburger and having sex with children, at least in my mind. One does not legally 'own' children as one owns a chicken, cow, or television set. It's illegal to have sex with chickens, too, by the way.

This is the fundamental philosophical difference between our positions – I see no difference, from a legal standpoint, between the steak and the TV. Poor old Bossy may certainly feel pain when she is slaughtered, but that does not diminish my legal right to do so. Nor does it mean that I take must pleasure in the act, which is another problem with such logic. I have killed, butchered, and eaten hundreds of animals. No sexual gratification yet. I certainly take pleasure in eating, as do we all.

So, you and I are back to the single oldest and most fundamental question in philosophy: what is right and what is wrong. While we are both obviously brilliant individuals, I seriously doubt that we will arrive at decisive conclusions. I prefer to stick to the concrete – ownership, in current American society. Ownership is nothing but an abstract legal concept. You are obviously correct in your assertion that there is no quality of the chair that makes it mine. But, I do feel fortunate that I live in a society where what's mine is mine, instead of the King's, the State's, or amorphously unowned.

Bottom line – meat eating is a fact, and it is perfectly legal for me to do so. I choose to exercise my rights on a daily basis, and am happy that there is a long chain of people involved in the process of getting that nice filet to the grocer's shelves. If there were not, I would simply hit the back 40 and harvest a deer or turkey, but the current state of affairs makes it much easier for me. I can concentrate on implementing huge and complex software systems, while others do what they do and the whole economic machine trundles on nicely.

Agriculture, including domestication of animals for food, is the single development in human history that allowed us to create societies. Society is defined by law. Law is always an abstraction, unless we use the law of the jungle, which is perfectly natural. Unfortunately, the law of the jungle is that life eats life, and that the strong take what they want from the weak. Our current system is based on the concept of ownership of property, and the currently discredited various collectivist systems are not. Within what is legal, we leave plenty of wiggle room for individual moral choice. Don't eat meat – I have no interest in the dietary habits of others. Leave mine alone and we have not stepped on each other's toes. The cows and chickens have no rights, and you should direct your efforts to rewording the constitution to include them. Until then, my rights and yours are more important than the nonexistent rights of animals.



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Post by Fat Cat » Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:29 pm

What can i say. You can learn a lot from a Garm.

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