IGX "...overflowing with foulmouthed ignorance."

IGX "...overflowing with foulmouthed ignorance."
It is currently Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:53 am

<


All times are UTC




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Sonnon - a kettlebell ?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:00 am 
Offline
Sergeant Commanding

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:12 am
Posts: 7502
I've heard rumblings about you reccomending the LCCJ with a moderate weight (1.5 pood Kbell for most males) for time for martial artists.

Is this correct?

What was the basis of that reccomendation?

I have added them in this week, & have found a tempo I'm comfortable with, & plan on working up to 10 minutes before I increase tempo. I like it so far.

TIA,

Marc


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:26 am 
Offline
Top
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 7:10 pm
Posts: 1467
LCCJ is nice, not quite as hard as snatches, much less boring than short cycle.

if found it easy to get a good rhythm in LCCJ that I cant find in SC. I can get 8 min in snatch with 24k k 1 switch but it eats my hands and trashes my grip.

_________________
Quote:
People have never really seen true mastery, so they don't even know that they don't have it.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:30 am 
Offline
Sergeant Commanding

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:12 am
Posts: 7502
I've liked how easy the LCCJ has been on my hands & grip. Not a aingle mark or extreme pump on my forearms.
(I grapple all the time in a gi, so I figure I'm getting plenty of grip work there)


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:36 am 
Offline
Sarge
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:01 pm
Posts: 174
Marco,

Yessir, that's right. There are a few things that go into my concentration on the LCCJ over any others:

1. All KB skills are in the LCCJ. If we perfect it, everthing else is just elementary.
2. As a fighter. you live on the edge of over-training since your practice is inherently athletic so economy and efficiency are king and queen. The bigger the bang for the buck the better. Many pros stink in performance because of over-training more than inappropriately training.
3. Snatches are the last skill in the progression to be learned and bitch up the hands and forearms if they're not perfect first - as a fighter you need your hands unripped, forearms unbruised and grip unhampered.
4. They have the most amount of dips than any other exercise's single rep - LCCJ kill the legs, great for your standup grappling and striking work on grounding your leg drive.
5. The rack does your guard good: great development of your Thai plumb, Greco over hooks and western boxing guard "dip to hip" - good for developing both static endurance for keeping the hands at home protecting the melon and keeping the elbows in protecting the ribs. Done for time, they help you where you need it, as the last seconds tick down, when underconditioned fighters lower their guard and expose themselves.
6. The cycling of tension and relaxation: as a fighter, high tension is something you only need to develop as a beginning athlete, but then you need to develop agility - the ability to absorb a shit load of force and like loading a rubber band retranslate it fast in another direction. The four transitions in the LCCJ (upswing catch in rack, rack dip to OH lockout, lockout catch in rack, dump into the spiral-loading swing) are great agility development for fighters really who don't need all of that Parisi prancy footing track and field stuff.
7. the 24kgs are enough total time under tension to create sufficient anaerobic training stress without the dangers of the big boy 32kgs which really are a sport of their own - fighters should just keep those aside for off-season general conditioning (and if you don't periodize, then don't touch the 32s because they don't give submission fighting and high volume striking the chance to fully heal connective tissue fraying.)
8. if you can kick your own ass in 20 minutes, adapt and be more powerful AND recover in time for hard sparring/rolling, then WTF is the purpose of all the other training other than iron masturbation?
9. If you juice, the above doesn't apply. Many fighters juice, and recovery then is injectible. But in lieu of having no balls, liver or adrenal gland in 10 years, then less is more, IMO.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:49 am 
Offline
Lifetime IGer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:26 pm
Posts: 21027
Quote:
If you juice, the above doesn't apply. Many fighters juice, and recovery then is injectible. But in lieu of having no balls, liver or adrenal gland in 10 years, then less is more, IMO.
Maybe oversimplified.

Balls? Unless they are really hammering it, HTPA recovery is not that difficult, especially if they resort to HCG or other gonade secretegogues.

Liver? Fighters + toxic orals just go together. It was suggested that Tyson was using the infamous "Cheque Drops" or Halotestin before his ear biting incident. Injectibles just wouldn't give you that kind of maniacal instant aggression...so, yeah, maybe.

Adrenals? Not real sure on this. I think it'd be very individual and much more likely for a nervous or jumpy kind of fighter

Look at some of the fighters with a lot of longevity, especially foreign fighters and you will see a more therapeutic usage of drugs. Like just over the edge of the maximum normal reading, or maybe just replacement.

I would not be surprised to see fighters going with EPO too, which will vastly improve recovery times. In fact, look to the professional cycling circuit for the cutting edge.

Toss in some GH for overall connective tissue healing, and you are good.

It seems the whole "burn out" on drugs thing is almost an entirely Western, in particular, North American, kind of thing, though I could see a "hard" eastern fighter doing it too.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:59 am 
Offline
Sarge
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:01 pm
Posts: 174
Shaf,

You obviously know more about this than I do. (Don't mean that the way it sounds.)

My only point is that S&C is only supplemental for fighters, and yet there's a whole shitload of overly-extensive programs for "martial arts." Those programs are more for people who don't fight but like to train hard-core. Fighters can't sustain that kind of over-the-top work load. Recovery rate is almost more important than work.

Look at Monson's fight after Santana's prep'ing him with Rhadi for UFC65. Monson gassed faster than a Hummer against a seemingly out-of-shape Silvia. Conditioning should be brief, highly intense and focus on fast recovery. Skill work shouldn't be mixed in with conditioning because form deteriorates. Energy should be fully recovered for intense sparring, so performance leaks can be evaluated by the technical coaches.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:06 am 
Offline
Sergeant Commanding

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:12 am
Posts: 7502
So you're talking dual 24K?

Thanks for taking the time.
I laughed uncontrollably when I saw Monson prepping for Sylvia by pulling a hummer & went to bodog & put $$$$$ on Sylvia, great point.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:09 am 
Offline
Sarge
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:01 pm
Posts: 174
Nope, just one-arm LCCJ. Doubles are still a "high" skill. There's a progression that Valery taught us that really pumps up the lactic threshold quick like. I'll post it if you want.

Shoulda laid down money too. Can't believe he lost to Sylvia on conditioning. Abysmal.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:24 am 
Offline
Sergeant Commanding

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:12 am
Posts: 7502
Please do post. It would be well recieved.

I'll tell you what, after reading Alberto's conditioning, & knowing his JJ pedigree, I'm laying $$$$ on him.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:45 am 
Offline
Sergeant Commanding
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:42 pm
Posts: 8427
Everthing Scott pointed out about the CnJ was pretty convencing and I have shared a few of them for some times.

I do think double CnJs are very bennificial and not 2 fine a skill for many, not all, trainees and I feel the balance of the 2 adds a little safety to a longer set.

But I also stress the point of how bennificial unilateral drills can be when running clients through them.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:28 am 
Offline
Sarge
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:01 pm
Posts: 174
The progression is sequencial: meaning that as soon as you lock down one score, you can move to the next one on your next training day, and keep progressing until you can't complete the step. Stay with the incomplete step until you can complete it (takes about 2-3X to make a progression when you hit one, it seemed like to me and my guys, but I didn't isolate out any of our recovery methods.)

Eric Liford suggested that it was possible to train every day, but I think that suggestion came from the orientation of being a professional kettlebell lifter, rather than from being a fighter for which he suggested that we need to tailor it to meet our ability to recovery for rolling. S&C being supplemental only for fighters.

So, here's the progression:

Start at one arm LCCJ non-stop for 3 minutes with hand switches every 5 reps. Find your base RPM (usually around 8 reps when just beginning this sort of training.) Pace is important for progression so once you find your RPM stick with it.

When you can keep the same RPM for 3 minutes. Add one minute.

Here's where things pick up for awhile and you adapt to the technique. It looks like you develop fast, but I believe it's just your technique catching up to your conditioning as a fighter.

Keep adding one minute each session as long as you can keep the same RPM until you can get to 10 minutes.

At 10 minutes, drop down to 6 minutes, and add one RPM. Repeat the above: add one minute per session until you get to 10 minutes.

At 10 minutes, drop down to 6 minutes and add another RPM. Repeat the above until you're at 12RPMs for 10 minutes.

Then, drop down to 6 minutes and 8RPMs (or whatever your base pace was), then perform one hand switch every 10 reps rather than one switch every 5 reps. Work back up to 12RPMs for 10 minutes.

Here's where Eric suggested we move up in total duration, so we kept adding one minute per session as long as we could complete 12RPMs. And we worked up to 20 minutes.

Then, we dropped back down to 6 minutes and only performed one hand switch for 5 minutes, and then 5 minutes on the other hand - finding our base RPM.

We kept adding one RPM per session until we were up to 10RPMs for 20 minutes. (fixed/edited by Dave per Scott's post below)

Now, that wasn't constant. We did a lot of jumping around. And that was back when we were adding the 32kgs into the mix for over-compensation/over-loading. But it worked me up to 100 reps in 10 minutes of 1-arm LCCJ with the 32kgs and one hand switch. However, the 32kgs beat us up too much and we were getting slow and hurt, so we dropped down to the 24kgs again, and within two weeks we were back on velocity with no aches and pains.

Maybe it sounds complicated, but it's really pretty simple, and there's a lot of flexibility to it. Valery told me that there's no rule to this, only tinkering with how we're feeling that day... but to train as much as possible for only 10-20 minutes. Freaks like Marty did that several times a day, most days of the week. That would kill me because of how much we grapple, but I respect it fo sho.

Anyway, hope it helps. It did wonders for our guys.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:49 am 
Offline
Sergeant Commanding

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:12 am
Posts: 7502
Thanks Scott!
The simplicity & beauty of this progression is fantastic.
I think you're spot on with the technique catching up to the conditioning.
I could have nailed 7 maybe 8 minutes today if I had wanted, after some decent interval conditioning.

Can we nugget this?


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:42 am 
Offline
Gunny

Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:21 am
Posts: 714
Well laid out plan for LC...

_________________
If I knew better... would I be here?


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:16 am 
Offline
Top
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 7:10 pm
Posts: 1467
nuggetized

_________________
Quote:
People have never really seen true mastery, so they don't even know that they don't have it.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:03 pm 
Offline
Sarge
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:01 pm
Posts: 174
Quote:
Everthing Scott pointed out about the CnJ was pretty convencing and I have shared a few of them for some times.

I do think double CnJs are very bennificial and not 2 fine a skill for many, not all, trainees and I feel the balance of the 2 adds a little safety to a longer set.

But I also stress the point of how bennificial unilateral drills can be when running clients through them.
Darth,

Your fighters must be much more coordinated than mine. With my guys, their discipline to work hard is greater than their concern for safety. With doubles, they push themselves to the point of non-dominant failure. So, I get them to focus on singles, and they can remain focused on a solitary goal... which lets them work harder, safer, longer.

Given enough time for technical instruction of conditioning exercises, in a perfect world, the double LCCJ would be my preference, but because they come to training with their heads swimming from their technical coaching in drilling practice and their tactical coaching in sparring and rolling, I only have a few minutes to really get them prepared, and then only a couple performance goals I can sneak in before their bodies shut down their minds in preparation for kicking their own asses.

I don't fault them for this as it works for getting in the ring, so I just try to work with the fighter mindset.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:03 pm 
Offline
Sarge
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:01 pm
Posts: 174
I sent this to Eric, and he pointed out that I had a typo:
"We kept adding one RPM per session until we were up to 20RPMs for 10 minutes. "

On the one hand switch section- it should read:

"We kept adding one RPM per session until we were up to 10RPMs for 20 minutes. "


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:26 pm 
Offline
Sarge
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:01 pm
Posts: 174
I also think that most people I've trained have been incapable of burying both elbows to their iliac crests with double LCCJ. Because of that when they're doing LCCJ they're using too much outward delt raise to hold the bells in rack. Overtime this was translating into exposing their ribs - with an elbow out striking guard, rather than elbows tight in.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:56 pm 
Offline
Sarge
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:01 pm
Posts: 174
I put this to video as well:

The Best Kettlebell Exercise for Fighters


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:54 pm 
Offline
Top
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:26 pm
Posts: 1994
Interesting vid. I don't follow GS, so these questions/comments might have been hashed out elsewhere.

I have not seen the corner grip on the handle before. I have used the center grip / flip over into the deltoid smack for the cleans, what you describe as the powerlifting style. Any value to toughening the shoulders with that, or is it offset by the energy efficiency gain with the corner grip / twist around?

I was expecting more of a deep squat on the jerk, the vid looks like more of a push press. Mind you, I am pleased with that as the plyo nature of the jerk squat is hell on my knees.

Thanks Scott.

_________________
Rain don't change the sun...


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:13 am 
Offline
Sarge
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:01 pm
Posts: 174
"I have not seen the corner grip on the handle before. I have used the center grip / flip over into the deltoid smack for the cleans, what you describe as the powerlifting style. Any value to toughening the shoulders with that, or is it offset by the energy efficiency gain with the corner grip / twist around?"

Well, I'm sure it would toughen you up, but honestly, it's too much abuse for fighting. Bruised forearms don't heal fast enough.

The grip is the limiting factor in kettlebell lifting, from what I've experienced due to technique, not due to the implement. The way Pavel teaches it - the "death grip" - is all about his "inefficiency" premise - more tension. Our grip gets plenty of work just in clinch and ground fighting, so we use kettlebell training more for the power endurance effect (as well as isometric endurance of total time under tension.).

Pavel teaches the rack for some reason like you're constantly arm-wrestling (wrist curling) the weight, which is damn near impossible for time. But with Valery's "corkscrew" technique, managing to last 10 minutes seems possible (not all the time.) Valery's "angled" rack rests on the ulnar bone (the "hip" of the hand as Valery calls it), elbow to hip, locked knee, foot to ground - so it's mostly structure.

It's supposed to rest mostly on "B-C-D" (the "hip" of the hand) below:
Image

When I used to try Pavel's techniques (I was a member of his first kb semmy) for 10 minutes, I'd be forced to break them into sets because of the grip and forearm abuse. But when we use Valery's techniques, we can prevent unnecessary abuse and focus on pushing our lactic anaerobic threshold (not limited by grip and forearm abuse.)

I think that they just wanted to develop a technique for minimizing damage and maximizing performance numbers within the 10 minutes, so their techniques are like surgery - minutia in there that I'm still learning.

I don't know if that addressed what you were actually asking.

"I was expecting more of a deep squat on the jerk, the vid looks like more of a push press. Mind you, I am pleased with that as the plyo nature of the jerk squat is hell on my knees."

Maybe I don't understand push-press in the same way, but the way I see push press is using a single dip to shove the weight to elbow lockout, and a jerk as using the single dip to shove the weight just high enough to make it weightless, and then a second dip to drop under during the free-fall to get elbow lock so structure then stands to elbow and knee lock-out.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:24 am 
Offline
Top
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:26 pm
Posts: 1994
I am a self trained, never seminared KB guy, just the DD tapes. I catch the kb on the forearm on snatches, and I agree with you on the recovery. For cleans, though, I end up taking the hit on the anterior and lateral deltoid, rather than the forearm. I will be trying the corkscrew. Thanks.

_________________
Rain don't change the sun...


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:32 am 
Offline
Sarge
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:01 pm
Posts: 174
Judobrian,

I can't visualize that, but I understand now why you're saying your shoulders are getting beat up. Maybe you're just thicker around the barrel than me. I know when I was about 20lbs heavier, I was getting beat up in the upper arm, but as my mobility increased, I was able to internally rotate the handle faster so that there's no "flip" at all. I think it's a pretty ingenious "accident" of their competition.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:42 am 
Offline
Lifetime IGer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:54 am
Posts: 20331
Location: Upon the eternal throne of the great Republic of Turdistan
Nice video Scott. I'm also a self trained KB guy. Looking back, I do a couple of those things as I get tired (never thought about why). I'll try that corkscrew too. Thanks again.

_________________
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:15 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Commanding
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:13 pm
Posts: 8624
JudoBrian,

I ain't an Olympic lifter, but I think your instincts are correct on the difference of the first knee dip on a KB jerk vs. Olympic lifting variety. The first dip ala the AKC is very subtle, but very powerful. Watch some videos of Valery jerking and see what I mean.

Almost everyone I have spoke with or read has mentioned that the subtle power of the first knee of the jerk is one of the hardest things to get in KB'ing.

IMHO, learning this first dip is most easily facilitated by using a heavier KB. When I was learning the jerk (long cycle), I alternated 7-20 minutes sets of varying RPMs with a lighter bell to get started on the conditioning aspect of the movement. Every third day I would use a set / rep routine with a heavier bell to focus on that first dip.

With a light KB (relatively) it is hard not to turn the jerk into a fancy push press. I think Scott's first dip might be suffering from the lack of weight. Scott is a very powerful athlete and his using a single 16 kg KB in the video.

It took me a long time (still) learning how to actually use the first dip properly with a lighter bell without turning the movement into a fancy push press.

I was surprised again at the openness of Scott with this video. This is great for Rmax and the AKC.

Can't wait for the knee to be taken care of, so I can get back to the one arm long cycle. It is the most fun I have had exercising since 20 rep squats.

Jason


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:25 pm 
Offline
Sarge
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:01 pm
Posts: 174
I think you're absolutely right about the nature of the explosive but subtle dip. It's interesting to me that this was also the difference between how I was taught a duck-under by a former Olympic Greco-Roman team member - my first Sambo coach here in America, and how I was taught by Soviet Sambo/Judo champion - my coach in Russia: the former very deep and powerful and the latter shallow and explosive.

I know that the video was using lightweight (actually 12kg), but that's how the technique should look even with the 32kgs. The interesting thing about watching Valery at the Coaching Cert is that he explicitly states, "watch me use this lighter weight with exactly the same technique."

He then goes on to explain that your technique should remain constant through weight progression, so although you could use the deep heavy squat to accomplish a few more reps, over time, you're just killing yourself because it's about enduring RPMs.

As a result, Valery's very focused on "time tests". He'll drop you low enough weight, duration and speed until you can nail the technique. Then he'll turn up the progression like I outlined only one notch. When you progress, then you can increase a variable. But unlike say a set-scheme where using more is better, the whole AKC approach as I understand it, is to keep practice the same time-scheme until you do more with the less effort. Then, you can progress.

I use the same technique with heavier weight, just not as long or as fast. But look to Valery's clips on how this looks at a professional level. I'm not even an amateur yet.


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited