Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by ultracool » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:20 pm

Micky:

PM me your email. I have an excellent article by this guy about standing in pdf. format. I'll send it tomorrow.

http://www.amazon.com/Demystifying-Tai- ... 643&sr=8-1

http://www.geocities.com/tukylam/


This guy is the best on the subject, IMO.

I was very lucky to get to see an incredible Chen demonstration, once. Find an influence like a Cohen lecture or a serious IMA guy or a for real TCM healer.

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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by Mickey O'neil » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:22 pm

cqc10 wrote:
ultracool wrote:I never used the TV, myself. I just suffered. I was motivated by health problems and meeting a very powerful Xingy acupuncture guy.

Cohen gives the hard sell on standing. It's worth reading.
Me neither. I was told to go do certain exercises a certain way and I just did it. (and I think that was better for my mind)

Hey Mickey -

This might be a good read for you.
http://www.qi-journal.com/Qigong.asp?-T ... aguaQigong

Park Bok Nam teaches breathing, qiqong movement, and concentration separately and then combines them once you get them each down. This isn't how I learned, but there is something to be said for the exercises. Play around with it and PM me if you have questions.
Thanks CQC10, I'll do that.

Ultra/CQC, does Cohen have a qigong dvd follow along that goes for a certain number of days? I think steamboatwillie was doing this for a while and Cohen rings a bell.

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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by ultracool » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:31 pm

Cohen has a DVD about standing but I think it's not published anymore. You need to have a pro look at you any way IMO. Just a little. It won't cost a ton.
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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by groundfighter2005 » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:32 pm

This is a much needed thread, so much talk about qigong and IMA on here, we need a starter guide, cause im just a lousy BJJ guy, so i don't what the hell you guys are talking about half the time
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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by ultracool » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:34 pm

groundfighter2005 wrote:This is a much needed thread, so much talk about qigong and IMA on here, we need a starter guide, cause im just a lousy BJJ guy, so i don't what the hell you guys are talking about half the time
Search DD and IGX like crazy. It will be worth it.
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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by Batboy2/75 » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:39 pm

In a conversation with Steve Cotter the following was said about the health aspects of internal MA like Taiji, Bagua, and Hsing-I. If your are not performing the forms with martial intent you are not getting the maximum health benefits these forms provide.

That is why some of the internal arts have specific separate qigong sets. To impart health until the student masters the martial forms with martial intent. In general.
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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by Mickey O'neil » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:45 pm

I was going to check this place out. http://www.magictortoise.com/index.htm There is another called kungfubricks.com that I got off of ymaa.com but I can't get the site to work. http://www.ymaa.com/training/schools/ymaa-carolina

"Ciarán is a student of Dr. Yang, Jwing-ming, who’s QiGong background is heavily influenced by the traditions of BaiHeQuan (or White Crane Kung Fu), ..." - this was from a hit on google

What do you guys think of either of these guys?

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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by cqc10 » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:21 am

Batboy2/75 wrote:In a conversation with Steve Cotter the following was said about the health aspects of internal MA like Taiji, Bagua, and Hsing-I. If your are not performing the forms with martial intent you are not getting the maximum health benefits these forms provide.

That is why some of the internal arts have specific separate qigong sets. To impart health until the student masters the martial forms with martial intent. In general.
This is absolutely correct. There are complexities of movement that must be done right, and it takes time to properly combine movement, breathing, and intent.

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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by Mickey O'neil » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:08 am

cqc10 wrote:
Batboy2/75 wrote:In a conversation with Steve Cotter the following was said about the health aspects of internal MA like Taiji, Bagua, and Hsing-I. If your are not performing the forms with martial intent you are not getting the maximum health benefits these forms provide.

That is why some of the internal arts have specific separate qigong sets. To impart health until the student masters the martial forms with martial intent. In general.
This is absolutely correct. There are complexities of movement that must be done right, and it takes time to properly combine movement, breathing, and intent.
Can you explain martial intent? How do you have martial intent with standing qigong? Even with moving (Little Nine Heaven, etc.)?

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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by GoDogGo! » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:22 am

Mickey O'neil wrote: Can you explain martial intent? How do you have martial intent with standing qigong? Even with moving (Little Nine Heaven, etc.)?
I think he meant that the qigong fills in the gap of benefit until you develop proper form and martial intent in your IMA practice.
BTW, this is exactly what my tai chi instructor in Providence said. "Do it the correct, martially-effective way, or it has less benefit."

Anyway, Brocades question for Ultracool or whoever wants to answer: when you expand your Brocades practice, are you just doing more reps of each of the 8?
In "The Way of Energy" the author mentions doing it w/ isometric tension, which I have never done.

Also, in what way were the toe raises (which I guess is the first exercise, "Raising Both Hands to Heaven" or whatever?) difficult?
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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by Mickey O'neil » Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:51 am

Mickey O'neil wrote:
cqc10 wrote:
ultracool wrote:I never used the TV, myself. I just suffered. I was motivated by health problems and meeting a very powerful Xingy acupuncture guy.

Cohen gives the hard sell on standing. It's worth reading.
Me neither. I was told to go do certain exercises a certain way and I just did it. (and I think that was better for my mind)

Hey Mickey -

This might be a good read for you.
http://www.qi-journal.com/Qigong.asp?-T ... aguaQigong

Park Bok Nam teaches breathing, qiqong movement, and concentration separately and then combines them once you get them each down. This isn't how I learned, but there is something to be said for the exercises. Play around with it and PM me if you have questions.
Thanks CQC10, I'll do that.

Ultra/CQC, does Cohen have a qigong dvd follow along that goes for a certain number of days? I think steamboatwillie was doing this for a while and Cohen rings a bell.
This is what I was talking about:
http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Qigong- ... 1591790905

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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by Hagbard » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:36 pm

Mick,

Magic Tortoise is just fine for your purposes, I took some classes with Lao Ma when I was in Raleigh. One of my homies still studies with him, or did last time I spoke with him a year or so ago.
?

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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by Hagbard » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:42 pm

Mick,

WRT "no mind". It comes out eventually as a result of long practice of qigong. If this is an important element for you, you may be better served by studying zen methods, which attack this as a primary focus.

HC
?

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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by Mickey O'neil » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:48 pm

Hagbard-
Thanks for the heads up. I'll check out MT. Does Lao Ma teach qigong or just tai chi? When I went to the qigong therapy page it showed Jay Dunbar as the instructor. It would be great if it's Lao Ma as well cuz he only lives a few miles away from me. Not that it matters a whole lot since MT isn't that far away either.

The only reason I was worried about the empty mind was that I thought it should be coming quicker. I'm not so worried about it now that I have been told otherwise. I do read and try to apply zen as well. "Zen Mind, Beginner Mind" in particular as well as a few others.

Thank you for your response.

Edit: I see they also offer Five Animal Frolics.

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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by LG Elf Ftr/Wizard 7/17 » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:14 pm

I think I'm more confused than when I posted the question initially. Should I start with just one thing, such as the Eight Pieces of Brocade, or should I integrate it with FC's recommended Simplified Tai Chi Chuan? Likewise, add in the Way of Energy?
If so, how would you recommend that it all be pieced together? A little standing practice, like Mick does, daily? And then maybe twice weekly sessions of the qigong and tai chi each, done on different days?
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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by Dazed » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:15 pm

These recurring fucking posts are like my mom telling me to eat my fucking vegetables.
I don't want to.
Do it.
Why?
It's good for you!

Last long thread about this I bought the 8 brocades book and DVD. It seemed like the bare-bones DIY YRG IGX approved starting point. It looks like this thread will be the one to actually get me to try it.

After this weekend though... :rolleyes:
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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by cqc10 » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:28 pm

Token Hetero wrote:I think I'm more confused than when I posted the question initially. Should I start with just one thing, such as the Eight Pieces of Brocade, or should I integrate it with FC's recommended Simplified Tai Chi Chuan? Likewise, add in the Way of Energy?
If so, how would you recommend that it all be pieced together? A little standing practice, like Mick does, daily? And then maybe twice weekly sessions of the qigong and tai chi each, done on different days?
What is your goal? What problem are you trying to solve?

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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by Hagbard » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:08 pm

Mickey O'neil wrote:Hagbard-
Thanks for the heads up. I'll check out MT. Does Lao Ma teach qigong or just tai chi? When I went to the qigong therapy page it showed Jay Dunbar as the instructor. It would be great if it's Lao Ma as well cuz he only lives a few miles away from me. Not that it matters a whole lot since MT isn't that far away either.

The only reason I was worried about the empty mind was that I thought it should be coming quicker. I'm not so worried about it now that I have been told otherwise. I do read and try to apply zen as well. "Zen Mind, Beginner Mind" in particular as well as a few others.

Thank you for your response.

Edit: I see they also offer Five Animal Frolics.
Never met Jay, Lao Ma was mostly teaching a "wudang" taiji set but he started each class with 8 pieces of brocade. I'm sure he could help with the qigong.
?

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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by Mickey O'neil » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:16 pm

Hagbard wrote:
Mickey O'neil wrote:Hagbard-
Thanks for the heads up. I'll check out MT. Does Lao Ma teach qigong or just tai chi? When I went to the qigong therapy page it showed Jay Dunbar as the instructor. It would be great if it's Lao Ma as well cuz he only lives a few miles away from me. Not that it matters a whole lot since MT isn't that far away either.

The only reason I was worried about the empty mind was that I thought it should be coming quicker. I'm not so worried about it now that I have been told otherwise. I do read and try to apply zen as well. "Zen Mind, Beginner Mind" in particular as well as a few others.

Thank you for your response.

Edit: I see they also offer Five Animal Frolics.
Never met Jay, Lao Ma was mostly teaching a "wudang" taiji set but he started each class with 8 pieces of brocade. I'm sure he could help with the qigong.
Thanks HC.

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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:29 pm

ultracool wrote:
Jack wrote:
Fat Cat wrote:Taiji is qigong.
Qigong is a facet of Taiji - no?
Tai chi is technically a subset of qigong.

Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's books have venn diagrams that explain this.

A school of tai chi will have it's own unique qigong practices to support the form or martial aspects. The tai chi form is a qigong practice, too.
So sorry, but there is a clarification necessary here. Taijiquan, when performed in its yindao way, has all the benefits of qigong and is thus described as such. However, taijiquan, the fighting art, really is something completely different and has more in common with wrestling or boxing than qigong. This shouldn't be confusing, if you think that both meditation and athletics can have medical benefit. However I think it is reductionist to say that taijiquan is merely a subset of qigong. Taijiquan is a type of northern Chinese martial art.
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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by cqc10 » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:45 pm

Mak is right in his clarification.

Martial Tai Chi form practice may look very similar to qiqong-focused tai chi, but it's not. The big difference is that many alignment issues MUST be followed in the martial approach because failure to do so will result in getting thrown or hit. The intent is also different. The form is mastered, but its only one small piece of the whole development path that goes from movement, to push-hands, to free-sparring. (roughly that's the progression)

You can feel good doing tai chi and have it very wrong 'martially'.

A friend of mine spent 2 years doing tai chi and recently when we spent time together I had to break the news to him that he had very bad problems in terms of martial carry over. These are objective and demonstrable issues that can be revealed.

Bagua has the same sort of problems. Someone can hold the animal postures and walk the circle and even do a palm change and have it feel good. (from a qiqong perspective) Usually, however, the good feelings mask limb and body placement problems that rob you of your ability to express power.

Martially practiced IMA has the benefit of imparting fantastic structural soundness and greater qiqong-benefit than qiqong-focused IMA. The person who doesn't care about fighting but cares very much about their health would do well do learn the movements 'martially' in order to maximize the health benefit.

This should NOT confuse the issue for people here wanting basic qiqong. The basics are very good and well worth the time investment. Just do it. Don't worry about whether its 'as' good as something else. Doing basic qiqong regularly is a thousand times better than none at all, and doing proper IMA as described above adds a measure of extra benefit. Find something you can stick to and just do it.

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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by ultracool » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:49 pm

Batboy2/75 wrote:In a conversation with Steve Cotter the following was said about the health aspects of internal MA like Taiji, Bagua, and Hsing-I. If your are not performing the forms with martial intent you are not getting the maximum health benefits these forms provide.

That is why some of the internal arts have specific separate qigong sets. To impart health until the student masters the martial forms with martial intent. In general.
Also, I've seen information that a 100% slow, non-vigorous, tai chi or qigong practice isn't as good as a practice like real IMA that has quick, fast, vigorous "internal practices" like IMA is supposed to have.
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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by ultracool » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:52 pm

GoDogGo! wrote:
Anyway, Brocades question for Ultracool or whoever wants to answer: when you expand your Brocades practice, are you just doing more reps of each of the 8?
I haven't done this. There are some instructions for the internal part that you might look at or get training in.
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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by ultracool » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:58 pm

GoDogGo! wrote: In "The Way of Energy" the author mentions doing it w/ isometric tension, which I have never done.
I am confused on this myself. The yiquan guys do it "hard style" and they ridicule the way I do it as "al dente."

If you just want to be healthy, "al dente" is fine IMO, but I think the other way might be overall better, but WTF do I know?

This is a very cool video of a very old guy doing yiquan.
http://www.amazon.com/Tao-Yi-Chuan-D-Ma ... 339&sr=1-1
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Re: Qigong/Tai Chi for Regular Guys

Post by ultracool » Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:01 pm

GoDogGo! wrote:[
Also, in what way were the toe raises (which I guess is the first exercise, "Raising Both Hands to Heaven" or whatever?) difficult?
If you do the YMAA version for 40 minutes, you go up and down on your toes for three seconds at a crack, 100 times. It's easy now, but it was a real bitch for a long time. YMMV. It works the kidney 1 point.
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