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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:52 pm 
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Being gone for a fucking week or so puts me so far behind on this shit, it's refreshing.

Find your own path. What matters is that you can live with it. Recognize that the path will change directions. Expect to pay to play.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:54 pm 
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Whatever, snowflake.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:23 pm 
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That's right. In fact, apropos to this discussion, I damaged my neck practicing full power Single Whip--a taijiquan move--and ended up losing feeling in my left hand forever. It can be anything, but if it doesn't help your organism, it's probably not a bad idea to change.
Hey Fat Cat, I thought before you said you messed up the feeling in your hand with kettlenutsacks. Is this the same or different injury? Just curious.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:27 pm 
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I was doing both on the same day, so to this day I have some confusion about what caused it, but I believe it was the lateral whipping motion.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:45 pm 
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Stosh is a good little guy.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:13 pm 
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Someone needs to condense the nonsense.

The take-away here should be that any wise person who wanted to have optimal strength and health at 70 would not train for maximum strength at 25. Or, perhaps, if they did, they would be content to take the longer road to achieving that level of strength in a much more balanced way.

If you take a life-long view of functional health, you train differently. Some of the old martial arts masters knew someone would want to come and kill them even at 70. Guys like Liu Shu Wen were still fighting duels at that age and winning. (something that sounds like some made up story to our modern ears . . . . and skepticism about such things is prudent but it is true in this case) Helio Gracie is another example of training right and living healthy long-term.

Unfortunately I spent half my life trying to be as strong and fit as possible and stupidly worked through injuries and physical dysfunctions. I had some non-workout related injuries that messed my shoulders and knees up for life. I have been able to workout a lot of that and achieve a decent level of fitness, but I've finally 'dialed in' to the things that seem to promote a proper longevity to my training. I feel better, and stronger, for having done it, instead of tight, sore, and in out of alignment.

There will come a time in your life when strength will mean much less, and flexibility, relaxation, and joint mobility will mean much more. Lifting is good if done right, but bad long-term if done incorrectly. Even 'good' things can hurt you, but train so that at 50 you are not simply as strong as the 30 year olds, but also as flexible and pain-free.

I don't want to be the guy at 50 who can bench what the 30 year old can but walks around stiff and uncoordinated with numerous aches and pains that plague his existence. I want to be the guy that athletically outclasses younger people across the board with all things weighed in the balance. (meaning I bring a balance of athletic elements to the table that makes me comparable as a whole to younger people)

There are lots of ways to walk along that path, but the sooner you wise up and recognize that optimizing health and strength at 60 or 70 means changing what you do at 30 or 40, the better you will feel and the longer you'll stay in the S&C game.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:23 pm 
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I agree more and more.

I want to "do" stuff now, and I want to "do" stuff when I'm 70.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:21 pm 
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Damn another great thread.
Birkham yoga: I think one has to take into consideration two things when considering this method of yoga. 1. Climate that you live in. I live in a very dry climate and I see people that do lots of Birkham yoga. They look dried out. Getting rid of fluids in this climate is not good. Could be better in humid climates.
2. Understand one's own body constitution. Some people run cold, Birkham can help. Some people are thick and damp, I think Birkham can help, Some people tend toward the skinny/more fluid deficient type-I thing Birkham can hurt.

From what I understand Birkham utilizes something like 26 postures. This may have changed I don't keep up with the yoga world. If this is still true, this can limit the ability to adapt the practice to the personal needs of the practitioner. Styles should serve the person not vice versa.

From my limited experience I think Iyengar yoga is the stuff. Too much stretching and not enough strength leads to injuries. Too much strength and not enough flexibility does the same. I think Iyengar's focus on both is very good. Plus that is one intense dude. I think he is in his 80's and can still rock it like Ravi Shaknar. Longevity, strength, strength of mind/spirit, flexibility...awesome.

I got into Michael Colgan's stuff and Egoscue's stuff because I was showing pretty obvious dysfunction. These two programs try to get the body to equalize. Colgan's focus is strength and Egoscue's focus is getting everything to line up-good posture. If you add strength to a dysfuntional body you will have dysfunctional strength. This compounds over time and starts to ravage the body.

One last thing. I believe that too much strenuous work can tax one's internal organs. In my experience learning a soft way to train as an adjunctive is very beneficial. Always going hard and then taking a break isn't as beneficial in my opinion as working hard and then working qigong (something simple) neigong (8 piece brocade), taji etc. It is counter intuitive though and sometime hard to grasp that sometimes working softer can be more beneficial than only working hard. 1. it gives greater depth to training and gives the person a dimmer switch so they can match what their body needs each day. 2. It allows for tweaking minute details and feeling more from a calm place. Little tweaks can make a big difference. In other words better body awareness. 3. Organs can be massaged through breathwork/movement and increase their capacity to repair or whatever they have to do. Working super hard puts on strain and then releases the strain when it is over. 8 piece brocade moves the organs around and increases blood flow for healing. Better organ capacity leads to better output later on. 4. Being able to work soft eventually allows one to find rest in strenuous activities.
I think this should be a nuggest. Excellent post, wish I'd said that.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:24 pm 
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My thoughts exactly.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:25 pm 
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Stosh is the pea shooter champion of northwest Sequatchie. Please show a little respect, y'all.
Get it right, Buttwipe. I'm the three-time pea shooter champion of northwest Sequatchie.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:46 am 
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How does traditional bodybuilding fit into all this? I'm talking about good old-fashioned pumping and toning: moderate weights, medium reps, wide variety of exercises, and an emphasis on balance and symmetry. All the stuff we're not supposed to do because "athletes" don't train that way. Mix in a little power work to maintain a good level of strength and you could have a good program for somebody that wants to stay healthy and train for the long term, but wants to do it with iron.

Thoughts?


Last edited by steelydan on Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:53 am 
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How does traditional bodybuilding fit into all this? I'm talking about good old-fashioned pumping and toning: moderate weights, medium reps, wide variety of exercises, and an emphasis on balance and symmetry. All the stuff we weren't supposed to do anymore because "athletes" don't train that way. Mix in a little power work to maintain a good level of strength and you have a good program for somebody that wants to stay healthy and train for the long term, but wants to do it with iron.

Thoughts?
Not a damned thing wrong with what you said. See McCallum, Sipes, Arnold and a slew of other old school bodybuilders for supporting evidence.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:17 am 
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How does traditional bodybuilding fit into all this? I'm talking about good old-fashioned pumping and toning: moderate weights, medium reps, wide variety of exercises, and an emphasis on balance and symmetry. All the stuff we're not supposed to do because "athletes" don't train that way. Mix in a little power work to maintain a good level of strength and you could have a good program for somebody that wants to stay healthy and train for the long term, but wants to do it with iron.

Thoughts?
A lot of people get fucked up with bench pressing and their shoulders, but yeah, traditional bodybuilding while avoiding exercises that mess you up seems a good route.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:10 am 
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Concur. I personally think the healthy bodybuilding paradigm is most constructive. Especially if you place emphasis on leanness and symmetry over bulk and strength.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:36 am 
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Go to Clarence Bass' site to see the longevity benefits of sensible body-building. It's only because modern tastes in bodybuilding revolve around 300lb sted-heads that this activity isn't seen as healthy anymore.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:15 am 
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I'm not sure how or when it happened but this has turned into the most common sense training forum on the web IMO.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:41 am 
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The discussions on IGX about yoga, qigong, IMA, and wellness absolutely destroy everything else I've seen anywhere. And I mean anywhere, mainly because of they are sensibly integrated with western and semi-western approaches and the practical realities of initiating this stuff are covered so well.

The other thing is, most of these books and what not aren't that great at constructively dealing with / using the unavoidable esoteric references.

I've often thought that a wiki database or something should be created about this stuff, and then maybe have someone make a book or two out of it. It would make bag loads of $$$$$$.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:51 am 
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I'm not sure how or when it happened but this has turned into the most common sense training forum on the web IMO.
A broad variety of interests and experience within those interests can be found here. Also, we are consistent with our 'open critique of everything' to include our own and our friends. Achyballers Gone Wild is the most pronounced example on the Training Forum.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:06 pm 
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So then what would be a good template for "well rounded" fitness?

How does this look

Weights/Strength Training - 2 days a week
Yoga/JM work - daily with 2 longer sessions per week
Cardio (walking, jogging, biking, swimming) - 3 times a week.

Adjusted as needed, for example taking strength up to 3 times a week with the cardio dropping down to 2.

For any of them you could rotate every three weeks. Go from three weeks of barbell/DB work to three weeks of clubbell, kettlebell work. Three weeks of "heavy" training to three weeks of bodybuilding.

Try to break out of the "set PR's" mindset and just lift well, adding weight every so often, over the years.

Go from three weeks of jogging to three weeks of swimming or biking. Once again, no records. Just move.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:53 pm 
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Someone needs to condense the nonsense.

The take-away here should be that any wise person who wanted to have optimal strength and health at 70 would not train for maximum strength at 25. Or, perhaps, if they did, they would be content to take the longer road to achieving that level of strength in a much more balanced way.

If you take a life-long view of functional health, you train differently. Some of the old martial arts masters knew someone would want to come and kill them even at 70. Guys like Liu Shu Wen were still fighting duels at that age and winning. (something that sounds like some made up story to our modern ears . . . . and skepticism about such things is prudent but it is true in this case) Helio Gracie is another example of training right and living healthy long-term.

Unfortunately I spent half my life trying to be as strong and fit as possible and stupidly worked through injuries and physical dysfunctions. I had some non-workout related injuries that messed my shoulders and knees up for life. I have been able to workout a lot of that and achieve a decent level of fitness, but I've finally 'dialed in' to the things that seem to promote a proper longevity to my training. I feel better, and stronger, for having done it, instead of tight, sore, and in out of alignment.

There will come a time in your life when strength will mean much less, and flexibility, relaxation, and joint mobility will mean much more. Lifting is good if done right, but bad long-term if done incorrectly. Even 'good' things can hurt you, but train so that at 50 you are not simply as strong as the 30 year olds, but also as flexible and pain-free.

I don't want to be the guy at 50 who can bench what the 30 year old can but walks around stiff and uncoordinated with numerous aches and pains that plague his existence. I want to be the guy that athletically outclasses younger people across the board with all things weighed in the balance. (meaning I bring a balance of athletic elements to the table that makes me comparable as a whole to younger people)

There are lots of ways to walk along that path, but the sooner you wise up and recognize that optimizing health and strength at 60 or 70 means changing what you do at 30 or 40, the better you will feel and the longer you'll stay in the S&C game.
Well said.

Quote:
Quote:
How does traditional bodybuilding fit into all this? I'm talking about good old-fashioned pumping and toning: moderate weights, medium reps, wide variety of exercises, and an emphasis on balance and symmetry. All the stuff we weren't supposed to do anymore because "athletes" don't train that way. Mix in a little power work to maintain a good level of strength and you have a good program for somebody that wants to stay healthy and train for the long term, but wants to do it with iron.

Thoughts?
Not a damned thing wrong with what you said. See McCallum, Sipes, Arnold and a slew of other old school bodybuilders for supporting evidence.
I agree with this as well. What Mak said too. Don't forget the Blonde Bomber! That is a great site loaded with some great info.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:11 pm 
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So then what would be a good template for "well rounded" fitness?

How does this look

Weights/Strength Training - 2 days a week
Yoga/JM work - daily with 2 longer sessions per week
Cardio (walking, jogging, biking, swimming) - 3 times a week.

Adjusted as needed, for example taking strength up to 3 times a week with the cardio dropping down to 2.

For any of them you could rotate every three weeks. Go from three weeks of barbell/DB work to three weeks of clubbell, kettlebell work. Three weeks of "heavy" training to three weeks of bodybuilding.

Try to break out of the "set PR's" mindset and just lift well, adding weight every so often, over the years.

Go from three weeks of jogging to three weeks of swimming or biking. Once again, no records. Just move.
I'm just an injured guy trying to figure out how to put it all together with the help of IGx, but the template that I think I've come up with (work in progress) is by adjusting Ross' 4-on/1-off template:

Day1: 15m joint mobility, 20m escalating density training/"warrior challenge", 5m yoga cooldown
Day2: 15m joint mobility, 30m low-to-medium rep strength training, 10m core training, 5m yoga cooldown
Day3: 15m joint mobility, 30m heavy bag, 20m cardio sprint circuits, 5m yoga cooldown
Day4: 15m joint mobility, 30m thai boxing (shadowboxing), 30m combat conditioning*, 10m core training, 5m yoga cooldown
Day5: 15m joint mobility

Upcoming Tweaks:
-* this 40 day cycle it will be combat conditioning because it is really helping me to recover my hip and back flexibility, as well as overall strength endurance. After this 40 day cycle (or maybe the next one after that) I plan on using Day4 for high-rep KB work. My plan is to just keep using this overall template and then Day4 becomes my ability to switch around to try "different stuff" if I want to-- so this is where I could rotate BB, KB, CB, shot, whatever.
-while I am doing some yoga and my overall flexibility is improving from a combo of the JM, CC and yoga cooldowns, I also plan on doing supplemental YRG workout(s) on the weekend days, since I have more free time then. Evening workouts during the week just aren't going to happen.
-while I'm not sure that there was a consensus as to what constitutes the YRG of Qigong, but I went ahead and ordered the Cohen Qigong Essentials program. I figured I had to pick one of the 30 sources that were reccommended, IGx really needs to go ahead and just endorse one of them for us. Per Mickey's suggestion, I think I'm going to replace half of the JM and yoga cooldowns with the Qigong and see how that feels.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:25 pm 
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-while I'm not sure that there was a consensus as to what constitutes the YRG of Qigong, but I went ahead and ordered the Cohen Qigong Essentials program. I figured I had to pick one of the 30 sources that were reccommended, IGx really needs to go ahead and just endorse one of them for us.
The problem is everyones temperament, flexibility, and to a certain extent the way their strength is organized, is different.

There is no OTW unlike kettleshperes.

I couldn't do the five animals or stand worth a crap until (basically) I did a lot of KB and hindu wrestler calesthentics.

People are recommending "Biss qigong" all of the time around here for beginners. I like that now, but to me that's not a beginner DVD. It's like you aren't DOING much. Some of it is temperament. If you are a CPA desk jockey type that gets off on really dull shit for hours on end you are going to have an advantage.

Do something traditional and figure out how you aren't going to quit. That's all you can do.

Some things are easier to know that you are doing them properly some aren't. Learning taiji off a video sounds hard to me.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:32 pm 
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what do you guys all pay for this stuff? i'm interested... but poor.
Kitosho:

Max out on KB and JS etc.as a flexibility gadget.

Get the YGR vids and fool around with them. If you figure out how not to quit, then I'd say get the DD five animals and the YMAA Eight Brocades. Search here and at DD for the plusses and minuses of all of this.

The main thing is to get into the eastern stuff and to not quit. I f you were really serious about 20 minutes three times a week without quitting, you would be way ahead of most people.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:36 pm 
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This is another good one.
http://astore.amazon.com/wwwthreegeesc- ... 13-8440014

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:57 pm 
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I understand what you're saying, I think the frustration that most of us feel are that we aren't willing or able to find a local instructor (the closest one to me seems to be about 40 minutes away and I'm not willing/able to do that) and are overloaded with options as to how to begin. My comment about IGx endorsing one product was half tongue-in-cheek, but in presenting 30 options I think most of us are left just as confused and lost as if we were presented with no options. YRG's value is that is serves as a gateway into yoga that you can then branch off once you have tried out the basic stuff. But I completely understand what you're saying, so I just kind of threw a dart at one of the products that was mentioned. I figure it's better than nothing. We'll see.


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