A fireside chat with Eduardo Bravo and Joshua Barnett

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Fat Cat
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A fireside chat with Eduardo Bravo and Joshua Barnett

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:17 pm

From: EddieBravo Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 4 days ago
10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu, President
Member Since: 5/9/02
Posts: 4096

Nope, never trained her, but she's come up to me a couple of times at GrapplersQuest to tell me she's read my books and that she's a big fan of the twister and she also said that some of her training partners call her "the twistette" :)

Way to go Shayna! Perfect technique! :)



From: EddieBravo Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 4 days ago
10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu, President
Member Since: 5/9/02
Posts: 4097

"Thanks for invented the move Eddie!"

I didn't invent the move, it's an old wrestling move called the guillotine, I just invented a bunch of set ups that make the move work in jiu jitsu and mma.

Rigan and Jean Jacques kept calling it the twister way back in the day because the guillotine name was already taken in jiu jitsu :)




From: EddieBravo Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 23 hours ago
10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu, President
Member Since: 5/9/02
Posts: 4109


"Did you actually say Catch Wrestling sucks?"

I don't think I ever said catch wrestling sucks.

I said that yes, it has been around way before UFC 1, and yes there are many legit submissions in catch, but the transitions and set ups from catch are way inferior to bjj, that's why they had to fake matches back in the days of carnival wrestling.

Weak set ups equal very few finishes, which equals very boring matches, unless they picked some schlub out of a carnival crowd to challenge the star carnival pro wreslter.

Even 85 year old catch wreslter "Lil Dinosaur" told me himself that no one played guard back then, he said the guard was a position no one worked on in his camp because he felt there was nothing there.

Now how can you have a superior grappling style if it doesn't include a guard with attacks and a guard that is hard to pass?

To me, that is a style with a big glaring hole right there.

If the Gracies hadn't spent most of their time working on passing guard, attacking from the mount, perfecting back control and making the guard more dangerous, today's mma would not exist. We would still only have fake pancrase matches with terrible technique. All you gotta do is watch those old Japanese pancrase and shooto fights to see how primitive the grappling was.

The bottom line all the catch wrestling and judo guys have to remember is, the Gracies brought old judo and catch techniques to a level where you don't have to fake fights anymore to avoid 3 hour stale mates. You have to give it up to Helio. I don't agree with ALOT of things Helio says about modern day jiu jitsu for MMA, but the fact remains that it wasn't for the Gracies, no one would know you I am or Josh Barnett or Quincy.

Why is there a huge "brazilian" jiu jitsu scene in Japan if it's all just judo and catch? The Japanese recognize that the brazilian style of judo and catch is by far the best form of grappling for mma, otherwise they would just keeping doing judo and catch like they had been doing for hundreds of years.


"What are your thoughts on this skills of Mr Barnett?"

I think Josh's grappling skills are top 10 among heavyweights in mma. He's got great leg locks and his guard is pretty dangerous for a big guy.

I don't blame him for talking shit on the rubber guard, it's not his fault that he hasn't sparred with a 250 pound rubber guard master yet.

When it comes to submissions, mma figters usually only want to learn from guys that can submit them. If a small guy cant submit them they are usually not interested in learing from him. But when it comes to boxing, that is not the case for some reason. Look at most heavyweight boxers, they are usually trained by little old guys that could never land any of those combinations that they teach on the fighter they are training.

But for some reason, big guys in mma aren't too interested in learning submissions from small guys.



From: Josh Barnett Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 14 hours ago
Member Since: 1/31/08
Posts: 227


Eddie,

"I said that yes, it has been around way before UFC 1, and yes there are many legit submissions in catch, but the transitions and set ups from catch are way inferior to bjj, that's why they had to fake matches back in the days of carnival wrestling."

- They had worked matches because that way you could insure the outcomes you wanted and the entertainment factor. How often do we read complaints about lame, boring fights in MMA? It happens sometimes but when you work it you can keep that from happening and keep people paying. It had nothing to do with "inferior" setups. That's BS.

"Weak set ups equal very few finishes, which equals very boring matches, unless they picked some schlub out of a carnival crowd to challenge the star carnival pro wreslter."

-No. What you got was two highly accomplished wrestlers often not being able to finish the other in an exciting fashion. Sound like ADCC or any other high level grappling even anyone? Happen's all the time in those.

"Now how can you have a superior grappling style if it doesn't include a guard with attacks and a guard that is hard to pass?

To me, that is a style with a big glaring hole right there."

-There wasn't a need for the "guard" or "bottom leg scissors" because you could be pinned under the rules of standard catch or pro wrestling matches. With the advent of MMA in the modern era, the modern catch wrestler adapts. Sakuraba, Tamura and others haven't had a huge disadvantage and neither have I.

"If the Gracies hadn't spent most of their time working on passing guard, attacking from the mount, perfecting back control and making the guard more dangerous, today's mma would not exist. We would still only have fake pancrase matches with terrible technique. All you gotta do is watch those old Japanese pancrase and shooto fights to see how primitive the grappling was.

The bottom line all the catch wrestling and judo guys have to remember is, the Gracies brought old judo and catch techniques to a level where you don't have to fake fights anymore to avoid 3 hour stale mates. You have to give it up to Helio. I don't agree with ALOT of things Helio says about modern day jiu jitsu for MMA, but the fact remains that it wasn't for the Gracies, no one would know you I am or Josh Barnett or Quincy.

Why is there a huge "brazilian" jiu jitsu scene in Japan if it's all just judo and catch? The Japanese recognize that the brazilian style of judo and catch is by far the best form of grappling for mma, otherwise they would just keeping doing judo and catch like they had been doing for hundreds of years."

-If catch hadn't been around Maeda never would have went to Brazil to pro wrestle and the Gracies would never have learned Judo so right there, without pro wrestling and catch there would be no BJJ.

You don't have to "fake fights" and they had plenty of long ass matches in BJJ and Vale Tudo also. Was it because BJJ was inferior? No. It was even related. Did BJJ guys need to throw matches in Abu Dhabi because now the committe has a whole section it in the rules after some incidents. No, I won't name names. That's unprofessional and if you want to figure out go re-watch 'em.

There is big BJJ scene in Japan for the same reason as any: it is popular for one reason or another. Because Rogan and others refer to all grappling as Jiu Jitsu. Becaus of the Gracies in the beginning. But it isn't because it is the "superior" art. It is just another form of grappling which more and more starts to resemble wrestling and catch with the setups, rides, and takedown work that wasn't there 4-5 years ago. Sounds like adapation to me. Just like we catch guys do to counter BJJ dogma and general tactics.

"I don't blame him for talking shit on the rubber guard, it's not his fault that he hasn't sparred with a 250 pound rubber guard master yet.

When it comes to submissions, mma figters usually only want to learn from guys that can submit them. If a small guy cant submit them they are usually not interested in learing from him. But when it comes to boxing, that is not the case for some reason. Look at most heavyweight boxers, they are usually trained by little old guys that could never land any of those combinations that they teach on the fighter they are training.

But for some reason, big guys in mma aren't too interested in learning submissions from small guys."

-ALL my submisison work came from smaller partners. I was almost always the biggest guy wherever I was and having another decent heavyweight around was a luxury. This why my game is more dynamic and open and doesn't seem like most heavyweights. Matt Hume was a lot smaller than me and we rolled all the time. Ivan, Roman Roytberg, Reese Andy, and others all were smaller which is why sometimes I would wrestle two at a time. Yep. Imagine having to wrestle Ivan Salaverry and Reese Andy at the same time.

I have never met a 250lb rubber guard master I suppose but it won't make a difference. I can't comment on what your criteria for a "master" would be but I have wrestled with guys of varying sizes that have tried to use rubber guard and haven't been successful. Does that mean it should be discarded? No. Absolutley not. It is another option and tool to be used but it isn't a magic bullet for wreslting as some would imply sometimes.

I never really talked shit on it but you have said many disparaging things about catch not only in yor recent post but with shit like "Dark Planet" and in your rants against Tony C.

I'll just come right out say it that while you are a more than competant teacher and wrestler your opinion on catch is shit. It holds little merit, has almost no foundation and is inconsequential other than that you are a popular known figure in grappling and people pay attention to what you say. I really don't care for your attitude towards catch wrestling and visa-vie myself as a representitive of it. I speak for no one but myself on this as well.

Josh


From: EddieBravo Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 13 hours ago
10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu, President
Member Since: 5/9/02
Posts: 4110

"There wasn't a need for the "guard" or "bottom leg scissors" because you could be pinned under the rules of standard catch or pro wrestling matches. With the advent of MMA in the modern era, the modern catch wrestler adapts. Sakuraba, Tamura and others haven't had a huge disadvantage and neither have I."

That's exactly what I was talking about. Catch is a style of grappling without a guard. The adapting part was crucial and coincidently happened right after the Gracies showed the world how important the guard is and how it looks after years of concentrating on it. Sakuraba even traveled half way around the world to Beverly Hills Jiu Jitsu to check out this Brazilian style of judo.

"If catch hadn't been around Maeda never would have went to Brazil to pro wrestle and the Gracies would never have learned Judo so right there, without pro wrestling and catch there would be no BJJ."

You can also say if it wasn't for caveman style of fighting no style would exist either. The Gracies, and for me, the Machados, never left that part of the story out from the history of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. We all knew about the Japanese master that taught Carlos who then taught Helio who then started to morph the style. It's not some secret story that the Gracies try to keep hidden, we all aware of the significance of Maeda. But why can't hardcore American Judo guys and catch guys admit to the great significance of the Brazilian style of grappling? The Japanese appreciate it, that's for sure, look at all the BJJ academys in Japan.

"I'll just come right out say it that while you are a more than competant teacher and wrestler your opinion on catch is shit."

"Dinosaur", I think his name is Billy Wicks or Robinson, I forget his real name, told me that there is no guard in catch. Couple that with the fact that catch wrestling turned into fake pro wrestling and you can say I know a little about catch.

"I have wrestled with guys of varying sizes that have tried to use rubber guard and haven't been successful. Does that mean it should be discarded? No. Absolutley not. It is another option and tool to be used but it isn't a magic bullet for wreslting as some would imply sometimes."

Well, I, nor any of my students ever said that the rubber guard is a "magic bullet", I only say that it works alot better than any other guard I have tried, especially when punches are added. But I am surpried that you would even say that the rubber guard is "another option and tool" based on what I heard you said in Seattle last weekend, so I am pleased that now you are even considering the rubber guard as an option, I think you would be good at it.


From: Josh Barnett Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 12 hours ago
Member Since: 1/31/08
Posts: 228


So you are basing something on what you "heard" I said?

Well, rubber guard in as much as anything is just another move Moves are moves and how you use them is more about what makes a style than anything else. I personally don't like it but I understand it and feel confident in it enough to help others who wish to use it. I don't disregard anything as you never know when you might face it or when you might need it for coaching.

I have also seen too many people disclocate patellas or do ligament damage to their knees from rubberguard to really endorse it either. High level grapplers at that mind you male and female alike. That's my opinion.

It was Pops Wicks and that's fine he says there is no guard in catch but John Pesek and Joe Stecher both used "the guard" or a derivitive of it and were successful catch wrestlers. Now I doubt it looked anything like a typical BJJ guard but it was a way of using the legs off your back.

No one denies that the Gracies didnt influenece and help popularize modern grappling. Just that BJJ is the alpha and omega in terms or grappling. My stance is that your attacks are unfounded and ignorant.

I don't care for most fundementals of BJJ but applaud anything that a) gets people to wrestle b) anything that helps people to be active and in better shape c) encourages atheltic endeavor. My solution to that is to stick to what I have been taught and in what I believe wrestling is and teach it as such. I don't train or use BJJ and that's that. It's influence is only in that it exists so therefore I need to understand it to deal with it.

If it wasn't for the overall density and complexity of society now-a-days you can bet your ass MMA would be worked just like pro wrestling was. When you control the outcome you can manipulate your audience into shelling out the most. Dont think for a second promoters wouldnt be doing it if they could and if it was 50-70 years ago the MMA scene would be full of works too.

Catch Wrestling can develop a fighter that can hang with any other art on the ground and makes a great base for fighting. One doesn't need to train in BJJ to be a great submission artist. That's what I proclaim and I stick to it.

Josh



From: EddieBravo Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 8 hours ago
10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu, President
Member Since: 5/9/02
Posts: 4111

"Shayna rules for correctly identifying the move as the COBRA TWIST~! on Sherdog radio."

You can call it the guillotine, cobra twist, abdominal stretch or by it's newest name the twister, but Shayna came up to me at Grapplersquest to tell me that she loves the twister, we took a picture, she thanked me for putting out my book, and then she proceeded to put her next opponent, Jeff Glover's ex girlfriend in the twister, oh I mean the cobra twist, about 20 minutes later, it was pretty damn awesome.

Shayna, are you calling it the cobra twist now because of Josh? Be honest :)

That's way cool, call it what you want, it's just a little funny to me that's all, but I understand you gotta respect your coach :)

Oh, and are you hitting the cobra twist from side control ever?

Good luck in the career Cobra Twisette! :)


From: EddieBravo Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 20 minutes ago
10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu, President
Member Since: 5/9/02
Posts: 4112

"The guy has had how many years to proven even a fraction of his claims, and he has done what with it?"

To be a fighter today on the big stage like the UFC, you have to your striking, wrestling, jiu jitsu, cardio, and strength all in prime condition, especially your will to fight. You can't accomplish shit with just jiu jitsu alone.

To have a chance at a UFC belt nowadays, you have to had a lifetime of wrestling, or striking, or judo, or jiu jitsu just to start with. Then you have to spend at least another 4 or 5 years catching up with the other styles to begin filling up your holes.

Most of the Brazilians that are entering the UFC right now are lifelong jiu jitsu players who have been working on their striking and wrestliing for a few years.

Look at the top ten of the 155 or 170 divisions in the UFC, they are filled with guys who have wrestled all thier lives.

I have had my school open for 5 years. But it takes at LEAST 5 years of mad training to master jiu jitsu. I have no black belts yet. It takes a long time to develope a UFC champion, 5 years is just the beginning of that quest.

Gerald Strebendt is one of my brown belts with an amazing rubber guard, but his striking and wrestling never got to where they needed to be. After some moderate success in mma, he retired to do private security in Iraq for a few years but recently started his comeback trail.

Jason Chambers has great overall jiu jitsu but lacks the flexibility to be a rubber guard master. His stand up and wrestling skills are decent but his desire to be an actor in Hollywood outshines his will to train like a Forrest Griffin. He landed the job as the host for Human Weapon and is now officially retired from mma.

Scott Epstein is another brown belt in my system and even tho he is 3-0 in mma, he still needs alot of work on his wrestling and striking. Scott has a world class squeeze with darce's, rnc's, arm triangles, north south, and various other chokes and his rubber guard is pretty damn good but he still needs to work on the flexibility of his knees and hips.

Dan Hardy, dangerous kickboxer from the UK, has been training with me for about 2 years and just got his blue belt. His stiking is pretty damn good, but his wrestling and jiu jitsu still needs time but he's already getting offers from the big shows so keep an eye out.

Conor Heun is a purple belt in the 10thpjj system and has been wrestling his whole life. He's 7-2 in mma and is currently getting pretty good media attention since his big win on EliteXC over Chute Boxe's Marlon Mathias. Conor's rubber guard still needs work but he has no flexibility issues at all. He's flexible as fuck. He just needs a little more time before he's killing people with his guard Shinya Aoki style. And of course, Conor's stiking is his biggest hole to fill.

It's gonna take a little more time before you see my guys pulling off rubber guard techniques in the big shows but it's gonna happen. Conor and Dan Hardy will probably be the first.

I got Sean Bollinger and Shegecki Matsuda, both my best rubber guard players getting ready to make their mma debuts. Sean is almost a black belt with a wicked guard and is a natural at striking. Shigecki is an undefeated japanese pro boxer with an insane guard. Both need to work on their wrestling bad tho.

Then there's the mma fighters from different camps, who were already famous when they learned the 10thpjj system. Fighters that have had a lifetime of combat sport experience under their belts before entering into mma. Shinya Aoki was a black belt in judo and jiu jitsu AND had alot of mma experience before learning the rubber guard. He took that shit and ran with it.

Dean Lister was already an ADCC champion and a black belt in jiu jitsu before he used the rubber guard in the ufc.

Matt Horwich has been to my school several times to tune up his rubber guard and is actually at my school all this week. He was already an accomplished mma fighter in the IFL when he started implimenting the rubber guard into his game.

Then you got a whole bunch of c and b level mma fighters that I've never met emailing me about how effective the rubber guard is in their mma fights. Youtube "rubber guard" and see how it's spreading all over the world like a virus.


"Shayna: Most definitely. Corn rows and the twister, the two things people remember me by."

don't forget your butt :)
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"Prepare your hearts as a fortress, for there will be no other." -Francisco Pizarro González

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