non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

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dalexan242
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non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

Post by dalexan242 » Wed May 09, 2012 3:06 pm

I did search through past threads and checked out Fatcat's logs, but figured I'd start a thread anyway.

I've built up to six days a week of BJJ (since about August) and am just looking for some kind of very simple, non-hardcore S&C where I can start light and not be all that tempted to go heavy and burn myself out/injure myself by having an ego and putting too much weight on a barbell (so low rep barbell stuff is out). I would normally just ask my BJJ coaches, but our gym is attached to a crossfit box and they tend to push everyone to WODs for BJJ S&C. Eventually I'd like to get in good enough shape to add rosstraining stuff back in while keeping the daily BJJ, but I'd probably die in a week if I tried to do more than three 30-45 min S&C sessions a week.

How bad an idea is it to try to use the ETK ROP as S&C for BJJ? I was considering just starting out with the 24kg KB instead of the 32kg and go through the entire progression to build back up to 32kg. Just looking to see if anyone here had a positive/negative experience with the ROP for BJJ, or would recommend some other minimalist program that used KB and/or bodyweight instead of barbells.

Thanks,
Dan.

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Re: non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

Post by Paradoxes of Defense » Wed May 09, 2012 3:23 pm

Six days a week of bjj, I think the program minimum from ETK would be a better choice than ROP. If you're desperate to do more, do 3 days of each, or add 2 days of something else (e.g. pistols), or something of that sort. But if you're serious about bjj, and it sounds like you are, keep it short and simple, and make sure your S&C doesn't detract from the quality and quantity of your mat time.

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Re: non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

Post by dalexan242 » Wed May 09, 2012 3:35 pm

Thanks, that pretty much is the goal--- just improve conditioning so that I can do more BJJ. I've seen the PM recommended a lot on Dan John's board and I've done it for a couple of weeks at a time in the past, but I never really felt like turkish get-ups really did all that much for me.

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Re: non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

Post by powerlifter54 » Wed May 09, 2012 3:47 pm

dalexan242 wrote:I did search through past threads and checked out Fatcat's logs, but figured I'd start a thread anyway.

I've built up to six days a week of BJJ (since about August) and am just looking for some kind of very simple, non-hardcore S&C where I can start light and not be all that tempted to go heavy and burn myself out/injure myself by having an ego and putting too much weight on a barbell (so low rep barbell stuff is out). I would normally just ask my BJJ coaches, but our gym is attached to a crossfit box and they tend to push everyone to WODs for BJJ S&C. Eventually I'd like to get in good enough shape to add rosstraining stuff back in while keeping the daily BJJ, but I'd probably die in a week if I tried to do more than three 30-45 min S&C sessions a week.

How bad an idea is it to try to use the ETK ROP as S&C for BJJ? I was considering just starting out with the 24kg KB instead of the 32kg and go through the entire progression to build back up to 32kg. Just looking to see if anyone here had a positive/negative experience with the ROP for BJJ, or would recommend some other minimalist program that used KB and/or bodyweight instead of barbells.

Thanks,
Dan.

Quick recommendation: Double KB clean then do a thruster (front squat right into push press). Repeat a few times. Do a few sets as you feel or have time before or after rolling. Finish with some pullups. You will be surprised.
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Re: non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

Post by TomFurman » Wed May 09, 2012 4:06 pm

Program Minimum. Swing. Goblet. Getup. Maybe a pullup. BJJ is enough conditioning. Do you want to be Anasanko or Marcelo Garcia? [Unless you can be Batman, then always be Batman].
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Re: non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

Post by robby mor » Wed May 09, 2012 4:15 pm

Address your weak areas.
Get specific about your own needs.
BJJ x6 a week is conditioning enough.
Stretch daily,foam roll
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Re: non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

Post by Dunn » Wed May 09, 2012 4:35 pm

powerlifter54 wrote:
dalexan242 wrote:I did search through past threads and checked out Fatcat's logs, but figured I'd start a thread anyway.

I've built up to six days a week of BJJ (since about August) and am just looking for some kind of very simple, non-hardcore S&C where I can start light and not be all that tempted to go heavy and burn myself out/injure myself by having an ego and putting too much weight on a barbell (so low rep barbell stuff is out). I would normally just ask my BJJ coaches, but our gym is attached to a crossfit box and they tend to push everyone to WODs for BJJ S&C. Eventually I'd like to get in good enough shape to add rosstraining stuff back in while keeping the daily BJJ, but I'd probably die in a week if I tried to do more than three 30-45 min S&C sessions a week.

How bad an idea is it to try to use the ETK ROP as S&C for BJJ? I was considering just starting out with the 24kg KB instead of the 32kg and go through the entire progression to build back up to 32kg. Just looking to see if anyone here had a positive/negative experience with the ROP for BJJ, or would recommend some other minimalist program that used KB and/or bodyweight instead of barbells.

Thanks,
Dan.

Quick recommendation: Double KB clean then do a thruster (front squat right into push press). Repeat a few times. Do a few sets as you feel or have time before or after rolling. Finish with some pullups. You will be surprised.
This is a great recommendation.

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Re: non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

Post by dalexan242 » Wed May 09, 2012 4:47 pm

I'm 38, so I do spend 15-20 minutes a day outside class doing foam roller/stretching/joint mobility and the hot tub ~4 times a week. Once I noticed my immune system not quite catching up (bruises weren't going away, feeling run down, etc.), I stopped worrying about my weight (~225 lb) and started eating more. Ironically, since I started eating more my training partners have started asking me whether I've been dropping weight.

Right now my weaknesses as a BJJ player are clearly a lack of technique (I'm only a 3-stripe white belt with no other grappling/MA experience other than 8 months of judo), experience and confidence (I basically froze in my first competition, our in-house tournament). I figure there's no point in trying to become a powerlifter (I'm stupid about it so I'll just injure myself), so I just want to improve my conditioning so that I can roll harder, longer and not have my body break down so that I can continue to improve my technique.

I do like pl54's suggestion of just doing a couple of sets of complexes after class and maybe just build up volume slowly. It would probably give my body more time to recover than if I worked out in 2 different sessions a day.

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Re: non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

Post by JimZipCode » Wed May 09, 2012 5:37 pm

Sonnon about 4-5 years ago recommended LCCJ for grapplers, in this thread:

Sonnon - a kettlebell ?

He made about 5 or 6 posts in that thread, all interesting. He & Darth discussed double KB C&J, which they liked even better for grapplers. That's not too different from PL54's recommendation.
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Re: non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

Post by dalexan242 » Wed May 09, 2012 6:06 pm

Thank you for the link, that basically lays out all I would need to do in terms of progression. I guess I could start with the 1-arm thruster and eventually progress to the 2-arm (or not).

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Re: non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

Post by Fat Cat » Wed May 09, 2012 7:10 pm

My opinion is that training A every day is enough, and adding something else "B", so you can do more "A" doesn't really make sense. If you want to train, as you say, "roll harder, longer and not have my body break down so that I can continue to improve my technique" then roll harder and longer, don't try and add another stressor to your system. At some point, the system of just doing more breaks down.

Also, drilling is the way to sharpen technique much more so than rolling. I drill the same pass hundreds of times in a row, which is considerable and specific conditioning, before I ever roll.

I think that you will not listen to me, so let me say as a decent accommodation, Robbie and PL54 ideas have merit. Low volume, focus on weakness, blah blah, etc. But remember that it takes up to three years for your body to fully acclimate to jiu-jitsu and you are still in that adaptive period.
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Re: non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

Post by dalexan242 » Wed May 09, 2012 7:51 pm

My first choice for some extra work would be to try to do some partner drills for 15-20 minutes after class, but my hesitation is that (a) no one currently seems to do that, the people who stay later just roll more, (b) as a white belt I'm not entirely sure how to organize partner drills other than just keep drilling moves that we learned in class, and (c) while I have some regular training partners I don't have any particular one that shows up on a daily basis that has expressed interest in being my "drilling buddy." Hopefully there's a better term for that, because I'm not sure I could come up with something that sounds more gay than "drilling buddy."

Until I sack up and ask someone to do partner drills with me, would you recommend solo drills over kb stuff too? We have a couple of dozen different movement drills that are used in warmups (penetration steps, breakfalls, shrimping, animal movement stuff) or I guess I could just pick 15 minutes worth of stuff from Jason Scully's clips. I guess I'm just not sure how to structure supplemental training and my coaches just seem to recommend crossfit.

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Re: non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

Post by Fat Cat » Wed May 09, 2012 8:15 pm

If the goal is to roll more, why not roll more? Why train something else so that you could, theoretically, roll more?
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Re: non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

Post by Paradoxes of Defense » Wed May 09, 2012 8:30 pm

Realize too that in BJJ, getting better at technique (as Fatcat says, the way to do this is drilling, over and over and over...) IS conditioning. The other day, I went 10 minutes with a noob who was bigger and heavier than me and barely broke a sweat. I went 5 minutes with a purple belt who is considerably smaller and lighter than me, and was drenched in sweat and heart pounding by the end. If you're going to work on something outside of class, work more on strength, less on additional conditioning.

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Re: non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

Post by dalexan242 » Wed May 09, 2012 8:39 pm

I stick around after class and roll with the other people who also stay later, but my BJJ classes are at 7AM or noon and that's usually only about 15 minutes. I was trying to go to some of the evening classes as well, but the trade-off with my wife for adding Saturday classes are that I take mini-me to his evening kids judo on the same day as the evening BJJ classes. I like the Saturday classes a lot better than the evening classes (I find it hard to learn new techniques in the second class of a day and the evening classes are filled with a bunch of guys who only come 1-2 times a week and go balls-out on every roll).

Sorry, not trying to throw up excuses because I understand where you are coming from, but the supplemental work I would be doing is basically at times when no training partners are available. My original goal was to have it be as much strength as conditioning, I just know that I'm pretty stupid about low rep barbell training and I seem unable to just keep the weights light instead of pretending like I'm still as strong as I was 15+ years ago.

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Re: non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

Post by Fat Cat » Wed May 09, 2012 8:43 pm

PoD makes a good point and it's part of what I'm saying. I'm also trying to get at a larger, philosophical point: you can't rush jiujitsu, beyond a certain point. Relson has a saying he repeats like a mantra: Dia a dia...."Day by day." You can't master something in a day. Don't rush. More isn't always better. The guys who rush burn out or get hurt and quit after a few years because NOBODY can push themselves forever and neglect the rest of their life. Ask your self, why aren't you happy with your level of progress now?

The tortoise and the hare...be the tortoise. Not trying to lecture you, I don't know anything about you. I'm just responding to the printed word so don't take it personally.
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Re: non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

Post by dalexan242 » Wed May 09, 2012 8:54 pm

I'm not taking it personally and it's probably what I need to hear (but don't want to admit). I'm making decent progress and with fitness-related stuff I do have a tendency to push myself too hard to quickly and injure myself. Maybe I'd be better off just doing some more mobility or light yoga as supplemental work if I feel the need to occupy myself outside of class.

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Re: non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

Post by Fat Cat » Wed May 09, 2012 9:10 pm

That's what I would say. I do bodybuilding workouts with my wife, hiking with my son, and light yoga aside from jiujitsu because I like them, they're fun, and despite the fact that they really don't contribute to my jiujitsu. That way, when I come to train, I'm enthused and ready to work hard.
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Re: non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

Post by zak-zombie » Wed May 09, 2012 9:25 pm

Fat Cat wrote:PoD makes a good point and it's part of what I'm saying. I'm also trying to get at a larger, philosophical point: you can't rush jiujitsu, beyond a certain point. Relson has a saying he repeats like a mantra: Dia a dia...."Day by day." You can't master something in a day. Don't rush. More isn't always better. The guys who rush burn out or get hurt and quit after a few years because NOBODY can push themselves forever and neglect the rest of their life. Ask your self, why aren't you happy with your level of progress now?

The tortoise and the hare...be the tortoise. Not trying to lecture you, I don't know anything about you. I'm just responding to the printed word so don't take it personally.

What Fat Cat say's here is the truth, and is something I'm experiencing now 4 years of 5-6 days BJJ + other stuff has caught up big time and I have taken some time off to gain some perspective - because really I'm not going to be a world champion or gain notoriety in a small circle of grappler's etc, ask yourself why did you start training in the first place? keep that in mind because it's easy to get sidetracked into trying keep up in the daily arms race of the classes or trying to rush improvement.

Take Fat's advice, you'll be thanking him in the long run.

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Re: non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

Post by Fat Cat » Wed May 09, 2012 10:05 pm

Here's a thought...If mini-Dan is old enough for judo, he's old enough to be your drilling partner. Kill two birds with one stone, more family time + drills.
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Re: non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

Post by dalexan242 » Wed May 09, 2012 10:29 pm

I think he'll be a good training partner in several years, but right now he's only 6 and is about 55 lb. The only bjj we do is a game where he tries to pass my open guard and smack me on the forehead to 'win.' He also has an annoying tendency of punching me in the nuts, which he claims is by accident. The main reason I'm at my current school is that it has all the AM classes that allow me to spend as much time as possible in the evening just being a dad. There are a lot more prestigious schools in the area but I would only be able to go at night.

I'm hoping eventually that he'll want to be my drilling partner. I've rolled a couple of times with my then-coach's 10 year old and I actually got a lot more out of it than I expected.

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Re: non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

Post by Fat Cat » Wed May 09, 2012 11:09 pm

Haha, if he's punching you in the nuts he can't be all bad. It's cool esse, just a thought as I said. You might try some of the Gracie games from Bullyproof with him.
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Re: non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

Post by dalexan242 » Wed May 09, 2012 11:14 pm

Thanks, I'll take a look at the bully-proof stuff, I had thought that it all required multiple kids. I guess I could secretly ninjafy one of his friends, I doubt if the parents would mind all that much.

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Re: non-hardcore KB S&C for BJJ

Post by Fat Cat » Wed May 16, 2012 11:33 pm

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I don't mean to "needle" you "butt" there are other ways to "supplement" your BJJ training and "test" your skills.
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