Jujutsu,Jiu Jitsu, Judo, BJJ = American Jujutsu

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DARTH
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Jujutsu,Jiu Jitsu, Judo, BJJ = American Jujutsu

Post by DARTH » Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:58 pm

Been thinking a lot lately about the eventual blending of different Ju Jutsu/Jiu Jitsu styles, how eventually new schools will emerge where the different styles are blended as oppossed to just taught under the same roof.
FMA seems to blend well with our Jujutsu, as it does with BJJ, most notably with the Dog Bros. All the same, I come back to when my Sensei said " In my opinion, the best cross training for Jujutsu is Judo or another style of Jujutsu."
At the time, besides having students that had high ranks in striking arts, we had 2 that also studied Danzan Ryu and one of those also studied BJJ at Yamazaki's. he had a hell of a flow, standing and on the ground.
In the last few months, I have been doing 2 things that realy reinforce my hypothesis about this.
1- Besides just generally spending more time training Jujutsu/MA in general, I have really been spending my extra training time and time when I am leading class, on throws and groundfighting.
Besides previous cross training with Judo and BJJ types , we have several people with some BJJ and Judo exp. and the reading and clip watching I've been doing, things from BJJ are definitely creeping into my style on the ground, as well as a Judo influence standing up.
2- I have been doing some cross training with a Wally Jay/ Remy Presass Instructor named Bruce Chui. We have been playing with Small Circle joint locks and Arnis intercepts and disarms.
It's stuff like this, coupled with the rise of MMA, and a resurgence of the self defense market that will give rise to American JuJutsu.
In some cases it will be too little of this and too little of that, and will be not much more than a marketing tool.
In other cases it will be a good MMA blend under the JiuJitsu banner.
What I envision is a place where the modern, forward looking arts of BJJ and Judo is taught, as well a blend of modern / traditional combat Jujutsu and Traditional Japanese JuJutsu under the same roof. With time and open, ego less crosstrainig, the separate instructors will create something new, and more importantly, their students will be a new kind of Jujutsuka.
Bringing it all full circle and pointed forward.

We all ( The different styles of JuJutsu/JiuJitsu that are not a subset of bad Karate) hold separate pieces of the same large puzzle.
Not that we are useless at what each other style specializes in but looking into the different styles for what they are best at, and the little gems you would not expect in certain areas blends your formal with our latter and a new level is reached. Example, BJJ is much better at positioning in an unarmed groundfight, but our locks are far more painful ( according to those who have been in both many times), so we can add to them, and they can help us get in a better position, more efficiently, to use our techniques. They gain a nasty new submission. Win-win except for their opponents.
We tend to be a better at weapons defense and grappling with weapons, as well as staying on our feet. BJJ guys have their ways of frustratiing your throw attempts, and making it a groundfight. Smalll Circle is better at getting a guy to the ground with out undue damage.
Many of the right people are coming into the scene before me and this seems to scream out to me as something I should play a part in spurring along.

My 3 1/2 year old is all Jujutsu this and Jujutsu that, and instead of raising him up with a particular bias or slant, I ( If he wants it) want to give him the means and instructors to make him a complete Jujutsuka.
From a root in the throws and balance play of Judo and the grappling, flow and gameplay of BJJ, both also good nonlethal, non hating competitive outlets. When he is older ( o.k. some dirty shit before hand =) I'll introduce him to Icho Yama Ryu's and Small Circles Military/Law Enforcement slant as well as Aiki Jujutsu's sensitivity and mindset.
Imagine such a Jujutsuka, after 15-20 years of the former, standing at a Dr. estimated 6' 3-" 230-240#s. with years of Kbelling and summer hikes behind him?
Not a Brizillian Jiu Jitsu player or Japanese JuJustsuka, but an American Jujutsuka. A 1 man melting pot of pain and damage.


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Post by Hagbard » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:11 pm

Thanks for my new sig. Good points, too.
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Post by DARTH » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:17 pm

But he will be an upstanding and curtious guy all the same, because being a 1 man melting pot of pain and damage makes it easier to remain civil, to that last instint when civilaty takes a hike.
To me that is a main goal of a modern, non military Jujutsuka.
You cant walk around as Barny Badass, and expect to get far, or not ambushed ( No mater how good you are, 3-5 guys , with a plan can fucking kill or cripple you.)along with generally disliked as an asshole.




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Post by Fat Cat » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:33 pm

Good post, D-Lo. Have you ever checked out Dave Camarillo? He's a world class judoka who now has a BB in BJJ as well. Tough hombre.
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Post by DARTH » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:42 pm

Cat,

I have not as of yet, but I will.

Your seeing more of this, Tim Cartmell is a BJJ BB, so now is Rhadi Fergison,
Chad LeBraun has a BB in traditional JJ as well as one from Renzo, he now is part of Team Lloyd Irving. Look at Battys post, their Judo and BJJ guys cross train all the time.
Question- I notice diferent BJJ orgs have radically different time in grades to reach BB. I have heard of some that take about 5 years ( same in our art) and other guys who run schools and the nine yards and are still Purple Belts after almost 10 years. Seems a bit too long. I'm not cool with the TKD 2-3 year plan, as it waters down what a Shodan is, but some BJJ Orgs. stretch it way to far and have guys that should be BBs, run schools but are still Purples.
JMO
Your opinion on this?




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Post by Fat Cat » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:47 pm

I think having high standards is great. Relson averages about 10-12 years for faixa preta (BB). For someone to claim "mastery" is pretty audacious, and you had better back it up.
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Post by DARTH » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:55 pm

So a BB means Mastery in BJJ, as opposed to The real beginning as in Jujutsu then? If it's meant to mean more ( Kind of like a Britt Pound and a Dollar are not trying to be the same thing) than it does in JJ, then I see the point in it taken so long.
I am all for standards. After 5 years on Lamond's mats, you are ready for the next step, which is your new beginning, as an instructor as well as a practitioner. You are not held up as a master, but as someone who has learned the basics, and should teach them to the underbelts, so that you, as a Shodan grow as well. Our Nidan (2nd Dan) sounds like your BB.
You make Black, and I will come to Hawaii to see it.




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Post by cqc10 » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:58 pm

Ten years is considered a good length of time for 'real' skill in many martial arts. (perhaps not 'mastery', but genuine skill)

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Post by Dazed » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:03 pm

It was the same timeline in my Kenpo, 5-6 years for 1st Black. The "real" Kenpo started at that point.
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Post by Fat Cat » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:04 pm

SITH COACH DARTH wrote:So a BB means Mastery in BJJ, as opposed to The real beginning as in Jujutsu then? If it's meant to mean more ( Kind of like a Britt Pound and a Dollar are not trying to be the same thing) than it does in JJ, then I see the point in it taken so long...
Yes, it is different than in judo. A BB makes you a "professor" of jiuijtsu. Because in the old days, if you walked around with GJJ black belt you could be damned sure that everyone would be gunning for you. I personally think that it is good to keep standards so high. Every BB I have rolled with, save one, was an utter badass.
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Post by cqc10 » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:05 pm

Makena is a one man smoking pot of pain and damage.

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Post by cqc10 » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:09 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
SITH COACH DARTH wrote:So a BB means Mastery in BJJ, as opposed to The real beginning as in Jujutsu then? If it's meant to mean more ( Kind of like a Britt Pound and a Dollar are not trying to be the same thing) than it does in JJ, then I see the point in it taken so long...
Yes, it is different than in judo. A BB makes you a "professor" of jiuijtsu. Because in the old days, if you walked around with GJJ black belt you could be damned sure that everyone would be gunning for you. I personally think that it is good to keep standards so high. Every BB I have rolled with, save one, was an utter badass.
I've rolled with a couple of BB's in BJJ and they were indeed badasses. They were on a completely different level. I've fought many black belts in other styles who may have been 'good', but really nothing extraordinary.

The only person I've met who seemed to have "BJJ BB level skill" in their own respective style is my Bagua instructor.

In his case, and in the case of the BJJ BBs, they were so far beyond my skill level that I was nothing to them . . . which is humbling since I've got about 20 years off and on in MA.

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Post by DARTH » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:11 pm

Just checked out Camirrilo's site, awsome stuff. I'm going to send him an email to make introductions and what not.
He is doing what I am talking about, and he seems to have the outlook that you should not dismiss a traditional technique right off.
It's why I believe the curiculim of Icho Yama Ryu, should be unaltered at it's core. In other words, it's good to come up with new answers to new problems, as adaption is important and keeps your art relavent, but the traditional techniques still hold the basis for the princeples new techniques spring from. Techniques that might not be the best, on the street, while wearing street cloths, might work great when your a Marine wearing 40-60#s of gear, and you and a Jawa turn the corner into each other to close to use your M-4. Part of Bristol's heavy emphasis on Koryu in the original MCMAP, I would gather come from this type of thinking. It also might be usefull when the Cops are wearing full body armour in 20 years.
Traditional JJ was meant for armoured warfare, and armoured warfare is making a comeback. Our troops and others will look more like StormTroopers than our WW2 Forefathers.
Another reason is that different bodies lean towards different techniques, and even if a technique is not great for me, it might be a go to technique for someone else. As an instructor, I have a responsability to preserve as much as Lamond's and his teachers teachings as I can. wheter a not I like a particular technique is not important.
I modify techniques to my own needs, but I always remember the original.
Obsorb what is usefull and discard what is not is true of my personal fighting style, but not my overall outlook as a Jujutsu instructor.




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Post by drwillis » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:12 pm

my Bagua instructor.
You still working with Stan? or did you ever start?[/quote]

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Post by cqc10 » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:14 pm

drwillis wrote:
my Bagua instructor.
You still working with Stan? or did you ever start?
[/quote]

Yep . . . still working with Stan . . I've had a really screwed up knee for awhile that has slowed me down, but I'm still working with him.

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Post by drwillis » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:17 pm

One thing I regret is never getting started with it. Of course with the knee problem I had going on, it would not have lasted long.
Does he have a place now or is it still at his home?
I would like to get in touch with him now that my knee is getting better.

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Post by cqc10 » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:19 pm

drwillis wrote:One thing I regret is never getting started with it. Of course with the knee problem I had going on, it would not have lasted long.
Does he have a place now or is it still at his home?
I would like to get in touch with him now that my knee is getting better.
He's had a place for almost two years now. I was taking several hours a week of private lessons up until about February when my knee gave out. I actually am starting back tomorrow after a 4 month break.

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Post by drwillis » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:32 pm

Ya, I just sent him an email because I know he was touchy about this stuff. Anyway, we'll see.
I would like to start working out there because the guy knows his shit.

BTW, what did you do to your knee?
Me, surgically replaced ACL, surgically repaired PCL, most cartiledge removed from back of my knee cap and other removed in various places.

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Post by Fat Cat » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:32 pm

Glad to hear that Addis.
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Post by Fat Cat » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:33 pm

cqc10 wrote:Makena is...one man smoking pot
Yes.
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Post by cqc10 » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:35 pm

drwillis wrote:Ya, I just sent him an email because I know he was touchy about this stuff. Anyway, we'll see.
I would like to start working out there because the guy knows his shit.

BTW, what did you do to your knee?
Me, surgically replaced ACL, surgically repaired PCL, most cartiledge removed from back of my knee cap and other removed in various places.
I took a flying leap from a deer stand. 8^) Had knee surgery last November. I had no tears, but lots of scarring and floating chips of cartilage were present.

He doesn't care about making money teaching, and only does it because its his passion. If he likes you and you bust your ass, he'll keep on sharing. If you're a slacker, he won't waste his time.

Stan is a super freak though . . one of the scariest people I've ever met.

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Post by cqc10 » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:36 pm

Fat Cat wrote:Glad to hear that Addis.
I'm hoping it goes well. My knee is definitely better, but its not where it needs to be. If the patellar tendon will calm back down enough, I can get back on the mat too, but BJJ is probably 1-2 months away for me I'm afraid.

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Post by drwillis » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:41 pm

He seemed to like me and knows my work ethic from my previous MA experiences and other ventures. We'll see what he says.
CMA will be a good change for me since all my previous experience is Korean and Japanese.

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Post by DARTH » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:53 pm

An aside

One of our guys started his MA training in a Wing Chun school.
He said at one point, they got an instructor who was a Bagua stylist.
He see's many simularities b/n Bagua and Daito Ryu.




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Post by DARTH » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:56 pm

I should not leave out Jujutsu's Basterd Son, SAMBO in this either.
Add their leg attacks to the above Ubber Jujutsuka and see what you get.




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