gun control

[nafod]

Those kids have no more credibility to impose their gun control opinions than plane crash survivors have to dictate aeronautics to Boeing.

That's a horrible analogy. You'd sue Boeing if ther plane didn't perform as advertised (safely get you from A to B). Here, the product is performing exactly as it is designed perform as a weapon designed to kill lots of people quickly.

Way to miss the point. Which is that being a victim does not grant you any particular wisdom, nor any special insight into a solution.

It does offer you insight into what it is like to actually be in the shooting gallery, and what the level of tolerability of this should be. Your post upstream kind of suggested only the dead ones are victims (the odds of getter nag killed are minuscule). The kids understand it in a way that we don't, that that is not true. They've "seen the elephant " to borrow an analogy from the ground forces in Iraq.

Way to miss the point. Which is that being a victim does not grant you any particular wisdom, nor any special insight into a solution.

It certainly makes you care, which is half the battle.

The gun owning folks have been winning the enthusiasm battle since forever, which makes sense since you really don't form organizations based around not having something. I can't think of any domain where people gather to enjoy not having a thing. The non-skiers of America, or people that hold "I don't have a pickup truck" rallies. The organizing principle for the "gun grabbers" is they don't want to be shot and killed, which is still a poor theme for a club. Now, here's where the government would step in, but of course the government is on the gun owner's side right now.

But the ones who have stared down the shooting end of a barrel of some terrorists are more motivated for sure.

[tough old man]

https://youtu.be/WzHG-ibZaKM

DAMN ASSAULT REVOLVERS TOO.

[johno]

https://youtu.be/WzHG-ibZaKM

DAMN ASSAULT REVOLVERS TOO.

Anyone who knows firearms understands that an "Assault Weapons" ban would accomplish very little.
Perhaps even have unintended consequences.

[tough old man]

I admit to honing my revolver skills lately just as a precaution. You truly never know the power of stupidity in large groups.

[Yes I Have Balls]

Anyone who knows firearms understands that an "Assault Weapons" ban would accomplish very little.
Perhaps even have unintended consequences.

Curious to know what you think could be an unintended consequence of banning from purchase of, say, the AR-15.

[Schlegel]

Anyone who knows firearms understands that an "Assault Weapons" ban would accomplish very little.
Perhaps even have unintended consequences.

Curious to know what you think could be an unintended consequence of banning from purchase of, say, the AR-15.

Rediscovery that anyone who can weld can make a Sten gun.

[johno]

Anyone who knows firearms understands that an "Assault Weapons" ban would accomplish very little.
Perhaps even have unintended consequences.

Curious to know what you think could be an unintended consequence of banning from purchase of, say, the AR-15.

Alternatives, that's what.

Non-AR firearms, as have been used in the Virginia Tech Murders, Columbine, the Aurora Theater Murders, and others, clear back to the Texas Tower Murders in 1966.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shoo ... ted_States

[nafod]

Anyone who knows firearms understands that an "Assault Weapons" ban would accomplish very little.
Perhaps even have unintended consequences.

Curious to know what you think could be an unintended consequence of banning from purchase of, say, the AR-15.

Lower body counts such as you saw at Penn State in 1995, the Virginia Tech Murders, Columbine, the Aurora Theater Murders, and others, clear back to the Texas Tower Murders in 1966, as compared to the Orlando Night Club and the Vegas concert shooting.

[johno]

Lower body counts such as you saw at Penn State in 1995, the Virginia Tech Murders, Columbine, the Aurora Theater Murders, and others, clear back to the Texas Tower Murders in 1966, as compared to the Orlando Night Club and the Vegas concert shooting.

You have high body-count incidents committed both with pistols and with AR's. At various times, the "record" has been held by either.* The weapon is not the determining factor.

In the Las Vegas murders, the key factor was firing on a mass of people who couldn't escape. Don't tell me that ten minutes of unimpeded fire with a deer rifle wouldn't accomplish the same horror.

One 30.06 round every 2 seconds X 10 minutes = up to 300 rounds with a truly devastating round. Could that take 58 lives?



*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shoo ... ted_States

[tough old man]

Because bad guys never get illegal guns......

[Gene]

You're not going to repeat that bullshit about an M4 and AR15 being the "same rifle" again, are you?

You're not going to try to convince me that there is difference between them of any meaningful distinction, are you?

The AR15 used in Parkland would have been a one-for-one swap with the M16A2 I deployed with, for every single mission I was trained for and how I was trained to use it, period. Or with an M4 if they had given me that. Perfect swap.

Convoy protection, day/night fire, room clearing, rapid response drills, assault.

It would have probably been better, since it wouldn't have already had tens of thousands of rounds pumped through it prior to my grubby fingers getting it.

Orwell once said that the hardest things to see are under one's own nose.

Big difference between an AR15 and "your" M16A2 is that selector switch. Burst fire dramatically increases hit probability. I've already discussed the BATF&E but over a certain range burst fire is a real help. Much better than a bump stock or controlled pairs.

Next, you had training in clearance drills. The average civilian goes "what?" when the rounds double feed, stove pipe or the bolt rides over rounds. In contrast you probably remember how to clear each of those maladies quickly.

We civilians don't have armorers who check the condition of key components in the firearm. The gas system being a big one. Military armorers have vast experience with insuring that the rifles work. Most civilians don't clean magazines routinely and that's a huge mistake, especially the characters who drop mags at matches.

There is a reason that your duty weapon was still working after "tens of thousands of rounds". You were part of a vast logistics system.

There is no way in hell that a civilian AR15 is like your M16A2 or M4, legal issues aside.


Since you were kind enough to broach the topic - you have a lot of tactical training too. How many school shooters were Vets?

You with an AR15, which you yourself personally maintained, would be a real problem. You're not the average school shooter, and may not represent any school shooter.

[Gene]

The gun owning folks have been winning the enthusiasm battle since forever, which makes sense since you really don't form organizations based around not having something. I can't think of any domain where people gather to enjoy not having a thing. The non-skiers of America, or people that hold "I don't have a pickup truck" rallies. The organizing principle for the "gun grabbers" is they don't want to be shot and killed, which is still a poor theme for a club. Now, here's where the government would step in, but of course the government is on the gun owner's side right now.

But the ones who have stared down the shooting end of a barrel of some terrorists are more motivated for sure.

There are a lot of people who figure that they know what is best for others. The gun control lobby is full of such people. It's not about public safety, it's the conceited attitude that you know what is best for other adults. Protecting kids is an excuse.

The US Military kills more children from "collateral damage" than all domestic mass shootings combined each year. Thousands of kids die from traffic accidents. Quite a few die in hospitals. Death by gun shot wound is very rare in children under the middle teens.

There are 20,000,000 AR15s in circulation. There are not 20,000,000 mass shootings each year. We have a ban on nerve gas and biological agents for Civilians. I've never missed them around the house. I don't miss my AR15. I could not hunt with it back then. I don't trust the gun control lobby to ease up, they're Cause oriented, and people feed on the Cause. "Doing good has no end". Today it's ugly guns, tomorrow it's handguns.

Gun owner compliance rates in Connecticut and New York after their bans were less than twenty percent. Which means that eighty percent of these people who did not comply or register are unconvicted felons. What did this accomplish? Gave the gun control lobby a warm feeling, advanced their Cause. I know how they thought too.

I'm a reformed Drug Warrior. I wanted to see all drug users in prison. When I heard that Civil Forfeiture was the law of the land I was happy - I figured that Police knew what a drug dealer was and would 'stop' them.

I was helping to protect kids from becoming "addicts". I was making America sober and sane. I really believed this bullshit. I felt potent and powerful. In reality I was a weak minded fool, an idiot. I see the gun control lobby as another form of conceited idiot, making war against tens of millions of Americans who don't bother anyone. So that they can feel good about themselves.

The economics of prohibition are clear - outlaw something, raise the risk of marketing it, so it raises the prices and raises the profits. More profits, more people want to get theirs. This would apply to "ghost guns" and 3D printed magazines too.

I was schooled to mind my own business by the War on Drugs. I don't smoke or drink but could care less what other adults do. I wish others would mind their own business too.

[Gene]

Curious to know what you think could be an unintended consequence of banning from purchase of, say, the AR-15.

Substitution with shotguns. Holmes used one at the theater in Aurora Colorado after his AR15 jammed.

Even a revolver can be used in a mass shooting.

[nafod]

It's not about public safety, it's the conceited attitude that you know what is best for other adults. Protecting kids is an excuse.

Gene, the majority of folks wouldnt care about gun owners running around with assault weapons if they didn't form the centerpiece of the most horrific shootings. Not sure why this is a confusing point to you.

But anyway, those "excuses for conceited folk" are coming of voting age and are thinking the whole school shooting thing is bullshit, and they are going to demand change, and continue to vote the bums out until they can get some bums that will effect change. K-12 of practicing active shooter drills, having false alarms, and watching other schools get shot up will do that to you. It is an experience you and I don't have, and so don't quite understand.

The repubs have the levers of power right now, and are therefore responsible for the outcomes. This is their chance to get out in front of it.

[Gene]

It's not about public safety, it's the conceited attitude that you know what is best for other adults. Protecting kids is an excuse.

Gene, the majority of folks wouldnt care about gun owners running around with assault weapons if they didn't form the centerpiece of the most horrific shootings. Not sure why this is a confusing point to you.

I'm not convinced that a ban on these firearms will curb school shootings. Maybe it's my read of the history on Prohibition, the War on Drugs and the Feinstein ban. They didn't work and in some cases made the problem of violence and suffering even worse.

[Gene]

There are at least twenty million military pattern rifles in private hands. They're just as "deadly" as the stuff in the gun stores. A ban must evolve into confiscation, one follows the other.

The public isn't going to accept bloody confiscation raids, especially when the videos show up on Liveleak and other sites. Children will die in these raids, many more than have died in school shootings.

[Gene]

I figure that the Democrats are using the "assault weapon" ban issue to bully the Republicans into accepting a ban. Such a ban will alienate the Republican's base, giving the Democrats a big majority in Congress.

Trump was right - the Democrats had a chance between 2009 and 2011 to ban ugly guns.

[nafod]

I figure that the Democrats are using the "assault weapon" ban issue to bully the Republicans into accepting a ban. Such a ban will alienate the Republican's base, giving the Democrats a big majority in Congress.

Trump was right - the Democrats had a chance between 2009 and 2011 to ban ugly guns.

In a "Nixon goes to China" sort of way, only the Repubs can do something on this. They can always obstruct the Dems.

[tough old man]

Trump was right - the Democrats had a chance between 2009 and 2011 to ban ugly guns.

BITCH DID YOU JUST CALL MY RIFLE UGLY?

[Sangoma]

It's not about public safety, it's the conceited attitude that you know what is best for other adults. Protecting kids is an excuse.

Gene, the majority of folks wouldnt care about gun owners running around with assault weapons if they didn't form the centerpiece of the most horrific shootings. Not sure why this is a confusing point to you.

I'm not convinced that a ban on these firearms will curb school shootings. Maybe it's my read of the history on Prohibition, the War on Drugs and the Feinstein ban. They didn't work and in some cases made the problem of violence and suffering even worse.

Prohibition style measures work in some circumstances. One, when the incidence of a problem in question is very high. I probably posted something along these lines. When I qualified as a doctor I was doing surgery in a regional hospital in USSR around the time Gorbachev's government was trying to reduce alcohol related issues. When I started doing night calls we had five - ten beaten up drunks in A&E every night, double that on weekends. As prohibition gathered pace this number dropped to couple a week. Mind you, overdoses of potentially inebriating substances had increased, but nowhere near the number of previously observed alcohol related trauma.

Sure, there exist people who can shoot hundred people with a 5-round snubby, but it is waaaaay easier with the automatic assault rifle. You cannot drive a heavy truck without a special license, which involves medical exam, why is it possible to buy a machine gun without special checks and training?

[nafod]

When I qualified as a doctor...

Sangoma prepping patient for knee surgery



It’s a little known fact that Prohibition greatly decreased the incidence of alcoholism and related disease in the population. Here’s a good factoid...

In 1830, on average, Americans consumed 1.7 bottles of hard liquor per week, three times the amount consumed in 2010

Holy shit, that’s a lot of fire water

[Sua Sponte]

It’s a little known fact that Prohibition greatly decreased the incidence of alcoholism and related disease in the population. Here’s a good factoid...

In 1830, on average, Americans consumed 1.7 bottles of hard liquor per week, three times the amount consumed in 2010

Holy shit, that’s a lot of fire water

In 1830 we had X, in 2010 we have Y, therefore Prohibition. Ironclad reasoning. I'm convinced.

[nafod]

It’s a little known fact that Prohibition greatly decreased the incidence of alcoholism and related disease in the population. Here’s a good factoid...

In 1830, on average, Americans consumed 1.7 bottles of hard liquor per week, three times the amount consumed in 2010

Holy shit, that’s a lot of fire water

In 1830 we had X, in 2010 we have Y, therefore Prohibition. Ironclad reasoning. I'm convinced.

Wasn't trying to convince you of anything.

But of course the rise and death of prohibition and its impact on both organized crime and public health is more complicated than folks think. Like everything in life.

Second, alcohol consumption declined dramatically during Prohibition. Cirrhosis death rates for men were 29.5 per 100,000 in 1911 and 10.7 in 1929. Admissions to state mental hospitals for alcoholic psychosis declined from 10.1 per 100,000 in 1919 to 4.7 in 1928.

Arrests for public drunkennness and disorderly conduct declined 50 percent between 1916 and 1922. For the population as a whole, the best estimates are that consumption of alcohol declined by 30 percent to 50 percent.

Third, violent crime did not increase dramatically during Prohibition. Homicide rates rose dramatically from 1900 to 1910 but remained roughly constant during Prohibition's 14 year rule. Organized crime may have become more visible and lurid during Prohibition, but it existed before and after.

Fourth, following the repeal of Prohibition, alcohol consumption increased. Today, alcohol is estimated to be the cause of more than 23,000 motor vehicle deaths and is implicated in more than half of the nation's 20,000 homicides. In contrast, drugs have not yet been persuasively linked to highway fatalities and are believed to account for 10 percent to 20 percent of homicides.

[Sua Sponte]

I don't know the source for what you're posting but I'll take it on faith that you've done you're homework.

Surprised about the absence of increased violence during Prohibition but it did give rise to the Kennedy dynasty so not without wanton loss of life on that account. Not surprised about the other stats but do have to wonder about the impact on any of those variables, plus or minus, due to the temporal overlap with the Great Depression.

The sentences referencing the loss of life due to drunk driving, along with the unstated toll visited upon those who were severely or permanently injured, and the considerable financial costs of the medical and property damage are the salient ones. This despite considerable advances in safety engineering and enhanced law enforcement. Then there all those fatalities and injuries from auto accidents that have nothing to do with drinking, just general dip shittery or the distraction of cell phones at cause. To be sure, the losses exceed losses due to guns, including suicides, and far exceed any school shooting.

Yet, people are unmoved. They don't want their cars any more regulated than they are, say speed limiters or breathalyzer interlocks, chips to monitor activity, surely drunk driving penalties are too lenient and far too many repeat offenders are on the roads, and there's no constitutional issue around it. But, hey, most all of us all drink responsibly and we drive responsibly and only text while driving here and again, what could it hurt, so don't penalize the law abiding citizens....in other words, the same arguments used by law abiding gun owners that are eschewed by the "common sense" thinkers. Making it even more clear this is a much an us good people vs the gun crazies-type political engagement. Not to mention that a midsize SUV traveling down the highway at 85mph carries more kinetic energy than a truck load of 5.56.

There is truth to your statements that the commonly available AR is not meaningfully different than what's carried onto the battle field (since when do aviators train in battle drills?). There is just as much truth in the statements in the enclosed confines these shootings often take place that a bolt gun, a lever, a straight pull, a pump rifle or a long tube shotgun would easily do similar damage. Maybe the count will go down but it will still be high and nobody come that time will argue that the AR ban is working because "the body count would have been 30 rather than 24, we can all be thankful for that." It's then not a stretch for people to believe that an AR ban would readily lead to the ban of other firearms. It's really not.

Firearms are also materially different when one speaks of Prohibition as alcohol is a consumable. Ammunition is a fungible but there are plenty of stock loads around along with the ability to steal from military armories and other sources, that getting 30+ rounds of 5.56 plus along with a lightly used AR will be easily done for most of the rest of our lifetimes. And it really is a bad idea to suddenly make the owners of those 20 million black rifles over night felons by decree.

All that said, I believe to be true what you said earlier; a ban or confiscation or some control is coming, and each time there's a mass shooting the pressure for such will grow and it will just one day happen. Note here I'm not trying to argue that 'there's nothing to be done about it all so why bother.' What I'm arguing is that many truly believe these type shootings represent the preponderate loss of life due to guns and such a ban would put a deep dent in the numbers. This is aided by the incessant repeating of the numbers killed by guns from all causes when these shootings take place as if the mass shootings were representative. These views are held by smart, educated people. What happens when nothing positive happens as a result of the ban?

And I still have to wonder why, with the availability of M1 Carbines through the CMP for decades, an intermediate cartridge semi-auto rifle with large magazine capacity, as well as high-cap 9mm in the form of Browning Hi-Powers, have we suddenly seen what we're seeing in mass shootings. Why not before now? It ain't the characteristic of the guns at root, folks.

I'm reminded of Hollywood's efforts years ago around the AIDS epidemic with the fund raising tours and dinners and what all. But if you wanted to save thousand folds more lives, more quickly, at substantially less cost you'd have attacked malaria. Not sexy, not glamorous, though. Neither is telling parents if they want to increase their children's chance of surviving to the age of majority they'd take away the car keys and access to booze, and prohibit cell phone use in cars of any sort. Nah, my kids are good kids don't cha know, how dare you suggest their privileges be suspended, let's take the right of others.

[Sangoma]

Two books by Johan Hari - on addiction and depression - demonstrate that solutions are often not as obvious as they seem, and often counter-intuitive. For instance, we are led to believe that both are disorders in brain chemistry, but facts do not support this idea. The main reason for addiction is that this folks are trying to anaesthetise some sort of pain in their lives, and the treatment should aim at finding this pain and help the poor sod to manage it in another way. I think mass shootings have the same underlying cause. The problem is, a drug addict mostly harms himself, whereas the shooter kills a few people before his diagnosis can be made.

As the tangent, Rogan's podcast with Hari was quite interesting.