Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by nafod » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:46 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:55 am
nafod wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:38 am
I had real hope for the Russians after the USSR breakup.
And you don’t now? Don’t be crazy.
I’ve always been interested in Russia. I’m Slavic on one side, studied Russian in junior high, read much of the literature, friends with quite a few locals who are from there. Would love to visit there. I’d like to visit the former Stalingrad and walk the battlefields.

But they have issues with governments.
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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by nafod » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:51 pm

He says that Trump is clever enough to understand that NATO is useless for USA defence.
IF NATO was no big deal, Russia wouldn’t spend so much time and effort trying to break it up.

Just like in WWII, if there was war, those countries, military and civilian, would be in the thick of it. Us...just the military. Worth spending the money to make sure the war is over there if it happens, and to be sure we run it.

Alliances are good.
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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by Thud » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:05 pm

DrDonkeyLove wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:44 am
Thud wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:17 pm
DrDonkeyLove wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:46 pm
Anti-Trump deep staters provide "highly classified" info to anti-Trump NYT and potentially help Putin burn a US asset in Russia so the NYT can cast more suspicion that Trump is a Putin/Russian puppet. The ironies here are nth level stuff.
Is this an attempt at moral equivalence?
Help me quantify. How bad is it when a source (lets call him "deep throat") outs a traitor?
Trump is a NYC developer so he has to be neck deep in shenanigans and maybe some of them are Russian - just like Bill & Hillary. Mueller seems immune to political pressure from the right so let the investigation continue and we'll see.

My point is not moral equivalence, more like moral hypocrisy. What appears to be a massively important Russian intelligence source was compromised by someone with a very high security clearance & the NYT and it's not even acknowledged as something quite valuable to the evil Putin. It's despicably funny.

BTW, Nixon wasn't a traitor, he was a petty criminal. Teddy Kennedy, , now there was a traitor.

That's fair, Donk. I don't even know why I pounced on your comment. Truth be told, I hate talking about Trump, I should have never started. I do think he's extremely corrupt though, cannot be trusted with high level intelligence secrets. He wont talk with Mueller but he's fine to go into a locked chamber with the head of the KGB. His own intelligence teams don't trust him. At some point the saner among them will flee the ship and expedite his departure with leaks. The truth must come out for the good of the republic.

Also wasn't really trying to invoke Nixon, or draw an equivalence there, other than to offer it as an example of patriots leaking when they feel the constitution is being usurped. I agree Nixon was a petty thief, especially in contrast to Trump, who I wholly believe has been compromised sufficiently by Russia to be considered and asset -- like Flynn, Manafort, et al.

Going back under my rock now.
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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by Fat Cat » Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:12 am

nafod wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:46 pm
Fat Cat wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:55 am
nafod wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:38 am
I had real hope for the Russians after the USSR breakup.
And you don’t now? Don’t be crazy.
I’ve always been interested in Russia. I’m Slavic on one side, studied Russian in junior high, read much of the literature, friends with quite a few locals who are from there. Would love to visit there. I’d like to visit the former Stalingrad and walk the battlefields.

But they have issues with governments.
Hard to argue with that. I still think that Russia and the United States can have a brilliant future as friendly states. Think about it; neither has something the other side absolutely needs, but both sides have things the other might want. We both have an educated populace, plenty of space, natural resources, etc. There's no real reason for us to be enemies. Nobody wants to be communist anymore, except for some street-shitters in Seattle (thanks Kaz!).

The real story is this, the strategic threat in the world today is China. It's the only country that presents a real threat to the United States and the world order we promote. It just so happens that it is also the only country that poses a threat to the Russian Federation, with which it shares 2,615 miles of border, and whose land, gas, timber, ore, and other resources they would love to get their rice pickin' hands on.

Given that no American has designs on Russian land, and we both share a strategic enemy, I don't see why we shouldn't be friends.
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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by Turdacious » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:55 pm

Putin’s Russia has been on the precipice of a demographic cliff for some time, through little fault of the current regime. When communism collapsed 25 years ago, it took not only the Soviet Union down with it, but also unleashed an unprecedented demographic catastrophe. During the decade-long economic depression of the 1990s under Boris Yeltsin, Russian mortality skyrocketed. Male life expectancy bottomed out at around 59 years. At the same time, fertility plummeted. Few parents chose to have children they could not provide for, leading to a “baby bust” and steep population decline for most of the 1990s. Few girls born in the 1990s means few potential mothers today, producing a natural “echo” that demographers have anticipated for years. What we are witnessing, then, is the beginning of an inevitable long-term shrinkage of the Russian population that, by 2050, will make Russia only the 15th–most–populous country, behind the Philippines and Tanzania.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/10/19/we ... opulation/
As a whole, China has too few young adults relative to the size of older generations, meaning it will not have enough workers to support its pensioners (or children) properly in the future. But some areas will hit demographic trouble earlier and harder than others, with serious implications for economic growth and regional stability. Wang Feng, of the University of California, Irvine, dubs the problem “the Balkanisation of Chinese demography”. The place with the lowest fertility is Beijing, where the rate was 0.71 in 2010. The highest rate that year was in Guangxi, a province in the south bordering Vietnam, where the fertility rate was 1.79. Both rates are below the replacement level...

Ageing matters because pension provision is partly a provincial responsibility in China. The value of the basic state pension is fixed nationally, but provinces set their own contribution rates, administer the money collected and distribute the pensions. How heavy a burden this is depends on a province’s demography. As a rule, the lower the fertility rate, the faster the rise in the dependency ratio (the number of pensioners relative to the number of working people). In relatively fecund Guizhou and Yunnan, the ratio is still falling. In Beijing and Shanghai, it rose by more than four percentage points between 2010 and 2015, more than the national average.
https://www.economist.com/china/2017/09 ... ing-deeper

Two major states that know they are dying demographically, are desperate to stay relevant economically, are capable militarily at a regional level, and are the largest and most important players in the dynamic Asian region = threats to the US. China's probably a bigger threat because a Chinese economic implosion would have a bigger impact on the world economy.
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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by Thud » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:11 pm

Gonna be interesting to see how Trump's blind eye toward hacking of democracy plays out in mid-terms and beyond. Certainly no deterrence for China or other enemies (ie Canada) from joining the fray. Trump would probably welcome the muddying of the waters to distract from the whole "Russia thing" and to validate his assertions it could be others.

Perhaps the good ol' USA will be but a domino in the long game to destabilize the west. Eastern powers attacking the energy grid, communications, banking systems, etc, each blaming the other.

It's not a good time to have flaccid/inept/complicit leadership. But remember, only Trump can fix our problems. Good thing he nominated the a judge who asserts a sitting prez can't be charged with crimes - nice coincidence there. Also good he has a repug majority who might just be willing to overturn the 22nd amendment so we can have our supreme ruler for life.

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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by Gene » Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:06 pm

Why would it benefit Russia to have Trump as President? They would have blackmail material on both candidates.

The Uranium One deal and Ukrainian oligarchs donating to the Clinton Foundation would give them leverage over Hillary. Clinton foundation irregularities in Haiti would be good blackmail material. How about the Benghazi fiasco, which was probably meant to cover shipping weapons to Syria through Turkey? What about the monkey business in Egypt that got Al-Morsi into power? The whole fucking Syria thing under Obama would be great theater.

How about the eight years of the Clinton Presidency? Marc Rich helped to rape Russia of cheap aluminum. Who knows what shady shit Strobe Talbot was up to back then? There were allegations that the Clinton Foundation helped launcher Russian Oligarch money. The foundation got $400,000,000 for doing it. That's what Putin claims.

What the hell are piss videos compared to criminal acts?



Hillary ran a shit campaign. She ran a dirty campaign. She got almost two billion dollars in money from Wall Street. She will be nobody if she doesn't "justify" her loss.
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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by Gene » Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:28 pm

Follow the money. Hillary tried to rig the primaries. She got busted. Maybe the emails cost her the election, but I doubt it. More people stayed home than voted for Trump. She can't be admitting that her campaign was a clusterfuck. Easier to point fingers. Instead of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy, blame the evil Russians. She'll get more money that way.

What did the Russians do? Did they fiddle with voting machines? Any evidence of it? Allegedly they squealed on her. The emails. Is that what we've come to now? Snitches get stitches? So much for this "democracy".
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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by nafod » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:51 am

Gene wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:06 pm
Why would it benefit Russia to have Trump as President?
The basics of blackmail involve the exploitation of greed, stupidity, ego, and sexual appetite. Trump is 4 for 4 on that. He is the easy target. So predictable. So manipulable.

Hillary's been laughing at the repubs for about 20 years. But if the dumbass hadn't used a private server, she'd be President.
What did the Russians do?
The GRU committed a crime by pulling off a Watergate-level break-in in order to get Dem secrets and then reveal them in order to help influence the base and get Trump elected. Duh.
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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by JimZipCode » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:54 am

Gene wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:06 pm
There were allegations that the Clinton Foundation helped launcher Russian Oligarch money.
Yes. Also, there were allegations that Hillary was running a Pedo ring out of a pizza parlor in DC.
And allegations that Hillary had a Christmas tree decorated with syringes and condoms in the White House (in the 90s).

There've been a lot of allegations about the Clintons over the past ~25 yrs.
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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by Gene » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:10 am

nafod wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:51 am
Gene wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:06 pm
Why would it benefit Russia to have Trump as President?
The basics of blackmail involve the exploitation of greed, stupidity, ego, and sexual appetite. Trump is 4 for 4 on that. He is the easy target. So predictable. So manipulable.
You didn't answer the question, Nafod. Let's look at what Trump is doing...

As Commander in Chief he allowed the Pentagon to drop $200 million on the Ukrainian military. Happened a few days ago. What are the Maidans doing? Shelling Russian speaking civilians in Donetsk and Luhansk. That's a very touchy thing with the Russians. I watch Russian town halls, to refine my skills. Many are hopping mad about it.

If Trump were a Russian puppet he would not have given the Maidan money, yes? Yeah, he gave them Javelin missiles too, didn't he?

The US Navy is building an installation in Ochakiv. That's north west of the Russian Sevastopol Navy base. The US Navy has port of call at Odessa. We're dicking around in the Black Sea, close to Crimea. We agreed when the Cold War ended not to expand NATO eastward. Now we're practically up their asses. Again, how is that blackmail working for Putin?

The US is still in Syria. We wasted 500 Russian mercenaries a while back.

We haven't removed one sanction. Trump is bucking the Germans on the Nordstream 1 project, one would think that a Russian puppet could hide between German energy security, yes?

Putin met with Trump. I still remember a certain President who told Dmitri Medvedyev "After I win reelection I'll have more flexibility." Do you remember him, Nafod?

Let me jog your memory...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsFR8DbSRQE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNxEDomUlXw

Holding hands even.... and Dmitri saying, "I'll let Vladimir know". Vladimir whom? Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin maybe?

It's good that world leaders can talk. I appreciated Mr. Obama's work with Iran. For some damn reason Trump has to be enemies with Russia.
nafod wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:51 am
Hillary's been laughing at the repubs for about 20 years. But if the dumbass hadn't used a private server, she'd be President.
If she had run an honest primary she probably would have won the nomination. The Sanders supporters, happy that their man was given a fair shot at the prize, would have come on to vote for her. Hillary lost Pennsylvania by just 110,000 votes. Lots of Sanderistas would have covered it.

For a GRU campaign this one had a lot of help. Elizabeth Warren and Donna Brazile agree on Hillary rigging the DNC.

Here Sen Warren admits it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8qBexfR3r4

Server? Assuming it wasn't Seth Rich or some one else didn't give it up to Wikileaks. A lot of Sanders supporters were angry, Nafod. Ask some of your students this fall about it. I met Sanderistas who voted for Trump to spite Hillary.
nafod wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:51 am
What did the Russians do?
The GRU committed a crime by pulling off a Watergate-level break-in in order to get Dem secrets and then reveal them in order to help influence the base and get Trump elected. Duh.
That's what the indictment says. You sound certain. More so, you sound certain that it mattered. What I don't get is why the Russian Military Intelligence was running the operation. That sounds more like an SVD/MGB area of influence.

Do you really think that Trump's supporters "came out" because of emails? I don't. Hillary has always had strong negatives. She has issues, Nafod. She hates campaigning. She's more comfortable with ideas than reaching people emotionally. That's who she is and why she is not President.

I'd like more proof. Like I'd like proof of the Clinton Foundation money laundering scheme that Jimzipcode mentioned above.
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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by Gene » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:17 am

On Dec 26 1991 the USSR signed off. The Cold War is over. Sorry to disappoint some of you.
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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by Gene » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:32 am

JimZipCode wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:54 am
Gene wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:06 pm
There were allegations that the Clinton Foundation helped launcher Russian Oligarch money.
Yes. Also, there were allegations that Hillary was running a Pedo ring out of a pizza parlor in DC.
And allegations that Hillary had a Christmas tree decorated with syringes and condoms in the White House (in the 90s).

There've been a lot of allegations about the Clintons over the past ~25 yrs.
Been a conviction or two too. He paid a fine of over $90,000 as part of an agreement with Special Prosecutor Ray. He gave "misleading testimony". Mr. Clinton also gave up his law license for five years and paid the legal bill of $25,000.}

http://articles.latimes.com/1999/jul/30/news/mn-61021

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... n_cop.html

Even Snopes said, "Mostly true".

Shame that there weren't any legal proceedings over him selling pardons. Marc Rich being one. I guess now Trump can sell pardons too?



I'd love to know who dropped the hammer at Waco. I get this feeling it wasn't the onsite commander. A lot of us didn't like Vernon Howell. We don't think that mass incineration is how you manage child abuse either.


As I recall the Pizzagate thing involved John Podesta and some friends more than Hillary. Hey, what did you think of Jay Epstein and the "Lolita Express"? He's tight with both Bill and Hill.
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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by nafod » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:48 am

All those things are for show, Gene.

The two things Russia wants to see go under are the EU and NATO. Trump is fully supporting undermining both of those.
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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by Sangoma » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:20 pm

I think friendship in politics works differently from that on the human level. By supporting Maidan Trump is doing Putin a favour: war is good for popularity, military budget swells up (and side streams of money to multiple private pockets along with it), government gets the reason for neglecting infrastructure and social services and so on. The same with Syria: nobody wants the war to finish: America plays the freedom and democracy card while Russians blame America for invading sovereign state. In the meantime both get the same benefits as above. Forgive my cynicism, but I stopped believing in good intentions of politicians long ago.
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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:00 am

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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by Wild Bill » Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:05 am

Yulia Skripal Says She Wants to Return to Russia in First Appearance After Poisoning
https://themoscowtimes.com/news/yulia-s ... ning-61553

Poor naive girl. Brits will shoot her like her father, she already knew too much :(

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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by powerlifter54 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:31 pm

nafod wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:43 pm
I wonder what Trump and Putin talked about for the two hours where no one was with them.
Golf and grandchildren. \:D/
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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by nafod » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:11 pm

powerlifter54 wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:31 pm
nafod wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:43 pm
I wonder what Trump and Putin talked about for the two hours where no one was with them.
Golf and grandchildren. \:D/
Heh

Speaking of children, bet the KGB has swabbed Trump's drinking glass and is submitting results to 23AndMe, AncestryDNA, etc., under "Ronald K Stump".

It's the smart play.
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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by JimZipCode » Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:39 pm

Gene wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:32 am
Been a conviction or two too. He paid a fine of over $90,000 as part of an agreement with Special Prosecutor Ray. He gave "misleading testimony". Mr. Clinton also gave up his law license for five years and paid the legal bill of $25,000.
Thank you for the news flash that Bill Clinton was not completely candid about the Paula Jones affair. Hugely informative.
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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by Gene » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:44 pm

nafod wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:51 pm
He says that Trump is clever enough to understand that NATO is useless for USA defence.
IF NATO was no big deal, Russia wouldn’t spend so much time and effort trying to break it up.

Just like in WWII, if there was war, those countries, military and civilian, would be in the thick of it. Us...just the military. Worth spending the money to make sure the war is over there if it happens, and to be sure we run it.
NATO bombed Serbia, Libya, and Syria. Russia just might have a problem with such offensive behavior.

Only valid reason I can see for NATO is to keep the Europeans from forming their own military, one that may wage war on us in the future. Sooner or later we'll run out of money and have to leave Europe. If we left NATO today we would have more maneuvering room.
nafod wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:51 pm
Alliances are good.
The Swiss seem to do fine without them.

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world; so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs, that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat it, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But, in my opinion, it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies.

Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations, are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest. But even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand; neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing and diversifying by gentle means the streams of commerce, but forcing nothing; establishing (with powers so disposed, in order to give trade a stable course, to define the rights of our merchants, and to enable the government to support them) conventional rules of intercourse, the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary, and liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied, as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that, by such acceptance, it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors, and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion, which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard.
President Washington's farewell address....

We were better off doing it his way.
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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by Gene » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:50 pm

JimZipCode wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:39 pm
Gene wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:32 am
Been a conviction or two too. He paid a fine of over $90,000 as part of an agreement with Special Prosecutor Ray. He gave "misleading testimony". Mr. Clinton also gave up his law license for five years and paid the legal bill of $25,000.
Thank you for the news flash that Bill Clinton was not completely candid about the Paula Jones affair. Hugely informative.
Nice try at the sleight of hand, reframing Mr. Clinton's conviction as a "violation of his privacy".

If Bill really cared he could have fought the charges. He plead guilty in 2001. His wife was starting out her Senate career in early 2001. She had to have negotiating room to deliver "service" to New York business interests so she could run for Prez.

If she had to compromise her Senate career because of lingering Bill bullshit she would have beaten Bill with an Ash Tray or Table lamp.

Tough to get strange when you look like a battered child, yes, Jim?
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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by Turdacious » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:26 am

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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by Gene » Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:59 pm

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Re: Putin pinky-swears he didn't do it

Post by Gene » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:36 pm

nafod wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:48 am
The two things Russia wants to see go under are the EU and NATO. Trump is fully supporting undermining both of those.
Trump isn't undermining anyone. He's playing games to benefit himself politically. If he gets tariffs cut while improving employment this benefits him.

I don't agree that Russia "wants" to get rid of the EU.

The EU keeps the lid on old European grievances. If the EU disappears all of these different European nations are going to compete for trade and energy resources. Pile that atop historical differences and there is a risk of another European land war. The EU gives the big shots a place to make deals. If the Elites are happy you don't get wars.

Everyone wants cheap natural gas. The pipelines have to cross different countries with different tariffs. Life can get hard if piss contests over gas tariffs start. The EU will suppress those piss contests.


NATO? This keeps the EU from forming its own military. If NATO is gone the US goes home. We're camped out in places in Europe and nearby. If we go there is nothing to stop a "European" Army. There is a lot of justification for such an Army. As long as we're over there the justification for a European Army isn't there. They're talking about it but it's not really necessary. Yet.
British leaders have repeatedly blocked efforts to create a European army because of concerns that it would undermine the NATO alliance, the primary defense structure in Europe since 1949.
The Süddeutsche Zeitung reported that it had obtained a copy of a six-page position paper, jointly written by French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian and his German counterpart, Ursula von der Leyen. The document calls for the establishment of a "common and permanent" European military headquarters, as well as the creation of EU military structures, including an EU Logistics Command and an EU Medical Command.
This article is from 2016. There is a small "Eurocorps".

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/8935/european-army

France has nukes. If Britain goes back they have nukes too. If they join a "European Army" then the European Army has strategic and tactical nukes. Germany will probably be in charge, dragging France along with it. Italy will go along out of self interest. The prospect of a German lead Army, with nuclear weapons, terrorizes Russia. They have centuries of hard times dealing with Germans.

If NATO goes we go home. The EU forms its own Military. If the EU goes NATO goes. If the EU goes then we go back to the competition and coalitions that created the big wars of the 20th Century. This time two of them have nukes.

Those nukes could come our way too. They go anywhere, right?

The status quo, minus NATO expansion into their "near abroad" is the best path for Russia. I think it's best for the US.
This space for let

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