Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

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Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:54 pm

The findings were dramatic: The risk of experiencing these events was roughly 50 percent lower for those who lifted weights occasionally, compared with those who never did — even when they were not doing the recommended endurance exercise. People who lifted twice a week, for about an hour or so in total, had the greatest declines in risk.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/04/well ... troke.html

TL/DR; two 30 minute weight training workouts a week reduce the risk of heart attacks and stroke by 50 percent.
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Re: Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by syaigh » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:44 pm

And also hastens recovery from cardiac events. There is actually a lot of evidence that weight training, not cardio (although one shouldn't avoid it), is incredibly effective for improving health and recovering from catastrophic health events. I have some research, lemme look through it and I'll post. And fwiw, heavy weight training can significantly reverse osteoporosis in post-menopausal women (for those of you who are married to women or had one give birth to you).
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Re: Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:33 pm

syaigh wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:44 pm
And also hastens recovery from cardiac events. There is actually a lot of evidence that weight training, not cardio (although one shouldn't avoid it), is incredibly effective for improving health and recovering from catastrophic health events. I have some research, lemme look through it and I'll post. And fwiw, heavy weight training can significantly reverse osteoporosis in post-menopausal women (for those of you who are married to women or had one give birth to you).
By all means post it. The best popular publication I've seen with the case for resistance training is in The Barbell Prescription by Sullivan and Baker.

What I wonder is does this apply to other forms of resistance training, such as gymnastics or calisthenics.
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Re: Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by Wild Bill » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:54 am

But weight training increases blood pressure.
I remember read statistics about blood pressure in different sports. Highest was among weightlifters and lowest was among gymnasts.
But even gymnasts had blood pressure a little higher than those who do not train at all.
Edited
Here it is in Russian, maybe Smet will say is it legit or not https://sportsp.ru/library.php?Bodibilding_i_AD

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Re: Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by Kirk » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:48 am

My cardiologist has recommended that I not lift heavy any more (if I was honest I might admit that this caused me to shed some tears on the drive home). I've got some "mild" stretching of my aorta. Who knows if this is from lifting heavy or just generally having mild hypertension. My blood pressure went up to 220/100 during the stress test (with echo). I just started a drug to control the blood pressure. I just got this report and started the drug on Friday.

I'm not sure how to handle the idea of not lifting heavy any more or even how to interpret that. I haven't really been lifting heavy for a while now. I recently did trap bar deadlifts for 12x410 but I don't know if that counts as "heavy" or what that does in terms of spiking my blood pressure. 12 is a lot of reps to me (as a former powerlifter I can barely count to 3). I know I had a bit of a tomato face but I'm sure I could have gotten some more reps. Where is the line for 'better safe than sorry (aka, dead)'?

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Re: Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by Ryan » Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:08 pm

As someone who works in cardiopulmonary rehab, weight training can improve heart function, but the adaptations are different from aerobic work. The lowering in risk isn't so much from improved heart function, but improved skeletal muscle function (strength) reducing the workload on the heart during physical activity.
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Re: Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by Ryan » Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:12 pm

Kirk wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:48 am
My cardiologist has recommended that I not lift heavy any more (if I was honest I might admit that this caused me to shed some tears on the drive home). I've got some "mild" stretching of my aorta. Who knows if this is from lifting heavy or just generally having mild hypertension. My blood pressure went up to 220/100 during the stress test (with echo). I just started a drug to control the blood pressure. I just got this report and started the drug on Friday.

I'm not sure how to handle the idea of not lifting heavy any more or even how to interpret that. I haven't really been lifting heavy for a while now. I recently did trap bar deadlifts for 12x410 but I don't know if that counts as "heavy" or what that does in terms of spiking my blood pressure. 12 is a lot of reps to me (as a former powerlifter I can barely count to 3). I know I had a bit of a tomato face but I'm sure I could have gotten some more reps. Where is the line for 'better safe than sorry (aka, dead)'?
I would say light enough so you don't perform a valsalva maneuver (holding your breath and trying to push out). That blood pressure response could possibly indicate a lack of aerobic development. You might want to prioritize Maffetone style aerobic work for awhile.
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Re: Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by Kirk » Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:59 pm

Ryan wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:12 pm
I would say light enough so you don't perform a valsalva maneuver (holding your breath and trying to push out). That blood pressure response could possibly indicate a lack of aerobic development. You might want to prioritize Maffetone style aerobic work for awhile.
Holding my breath and pushing out have been programmed into me from thousands of reps. It'll take some practice to stop doing that.

As far as aerobic development goes I have been running for years and have only missed running 5 days since mid 2013 (currently averaging over 40 miles per week). I went quite a bit longer on the stress test than they expected and stopped by choice when I saw that my heart rate wasn't going any higher (I was wanting to see what my max is and was looking forward to doing it in a controlled environment with an MD there).

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Re: Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by Ryan » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:36 pm

Kirk wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:59 pm
Ryan wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:12 pm
I would say light enough so you don't perform a valsalva maneuver (holding your breath and trying to push out). That blood pressure response could possibly indicate a lack of aerobic development. You might want to prioritize Maffetone style aerobic work for awhile.
Holding my breath and pushing out have been programmed into me from thousands of reps. It'll take some practice to stop doing that.

As far as aerobic development goes I have been running for years and have only missed running 5 days since mid 2013 (currently averaging over 40 miles per week). I went quite a bit longer on the stress test than they expected and stopped by choice when I saw that my heart rate wasn't going any higher (I was wanting to see what my max is and was looking forward to doing it in a controlled environment with an MD there).
That's good. I'm assuming you monitor your HR while running. For BP control you want to keep your heart rate response LOW. I wouldn't recommend going over 70% of max HR if you're looking to improve your BP. That's why walking is so good for BP.
Last edited by Ryan on Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by Ryan » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:39 pm

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Re: Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:54 pm

Ryan wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:08 pm
As someone who works in cardiopulmonary rehab, weight training can improve heart function, but the adaptations are different from aerobic work. The lowering in risk isn't so much from improved heart function, but improved skeletal muscle function (strength) reducing the workload on the heart during physical activity.
Cool discussion. Could you say a little bit more about how improved muscle function reduces the cardiac load? I remember Maxwell saying something about that regarding lower-body movements promoting circulation.
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Re: Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by Ryan » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:48 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:54 pm
Ryan wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:08 pm
As someone who works in cardiopulmonary rehab, weight training can improve heart function, but the adaptations are different from aerobic work. The lowering in risk isn't so much from improved heart function, but improved skeletal muscle function (strength) reducing the workload on the heart during physical activity.
Cool discussion. Could you say a little bit more about how improved muscle function reduces the cardiac load? I remember Maxwell saying something about that regarding lower-body movements promoting circulation.

Let's put it this way, who's heart/CV system is going to work harder with a given weight? The person squatting 100 lbs for 12 reps who's max is 200 lbs or the one who's max is 300lbs?

Lower body training (not just strength training) promotes venous blood return to the heart (especially the calves).

As far as the heart, strength training thickens the heart muscle walls and allows it to squeeze harder. Good in some situations, not good in others. Over time this can lead to stiffening of the heart wall and not allow for the ventricle to relax and fill with blood properly.

This is where proper aerobic training comes in. The size of the chamber (left ventricle) will increase and allow the heart to fill with more blood due to relaxing more when filling. This is known as increased stroke volume and typically results in lower resting heart rate.

The heart must maintain cardiac output which equals stroke volume x heart rate. Increase stroke volume and heart rate will drop to maintain the same cardiac output.
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Re: Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:08 pm

Thanks Ryan. So it's not an either/or, both resistance training and aerobic training have their place.
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Re: Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by Ryan » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:09 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:08 pm
Thanks Ryan. So it's not an either/or, both resistance training and aerobic training have their place.
Exactly. They each have a role.
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Re: Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by Cayenne » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:14 pm

Ryan wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:12 pm

I would say light enough so you don't perform a valsalva maneuver (holding your breath and trying to push out).
Ryan, thank you for the info. Is what you're describing the same as Pavel's teaching about, when in the strain portion of the lift, releasing the breath through pursed lips and emitting a "tssss..." sound?

If that is correct, then what you are suggesting is a level of exertion that does not necessitate such breathing, yes? So, smooth inhalation / exhalation?

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Re: Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by dead man walking » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:07 pm

Ryan wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:09 pm
Fat Cat wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:08 pm
Thanks Ryan. So it's not an either/or, both resistance training and aerobic training have their place.
Exactly. They each have a role.
aerobic increases heart size. lifting increases thickness of heart wall. rowing does both.

so I read.
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Re: Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by Kirk » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:55 pm

So, not looking for any internet diagnosis here but I received my stress test result in the mail yesterday (had already talked to the cardiologist over the phone) and just thought I'd throw the results and conclusions up here. The cardiologist was positive and it looks pretty good to me, seemingly with the only issue being elevated blood pressure. I am going to work on learning to lift without all the intra-abdominal pressure, keeping weights lower, and have been prescribed something to bring my BP down.

11/30/2018
Bruce protocol 12:34
METS 14.40
Peak HR 171
Peak BP 220/100

Baseline echocardiogram conclusions
1. Nondilated left ventricle with mild hypertrophy and normal systolic function
2. The right ventricle is normal in size and contracts normally
3. Normal cardiac valves
4. The aortic root is mildly dilated

Stress echocardiogram conclusions
1. Above average functional capacity
2. At peak stress there is normal hyperdynamic response of all myocardial segments (LVEF 80%)
3. This is a negative stress echocardiogram, suggesting a low likelihood of hemodynamically significant coronary artery disease.

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Re: Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by Ryan » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:53 am

Cayenne wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:14 pm
Ryan wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:12 pm

I would say light enough so you don't perform a valsalva maneuver (holding your breath and trying to push out).
Ryan, thank you for the info. Is what you're describing the same as Pavel's teaching about, when in the strain portion of the lift, releasing the breath through pursed lips and emitting a "tssss..." sound?

If that is correct, then what you are suggesting is a level of exertion that does not necessitate such breathing, yes? So, smooth inhalation / exhalation?
Correct.
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Re: Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by Ryan » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:09 pm

Kirk wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:55 pm
The aortic root is mildly dilated.
Keep an eye on that. Another possible byproduct of high blood pressure/ valsalva during lifting.
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Re: Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by Kirk » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:34 pm

Ryan wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:09 pm
Kirk wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:55 pm
The aortic root is mildly dilated.
Keep an eye on that. Another possible byproduct of high blood pressure/ valsalva during lifting.
Yeah, this seems to be the big thing for me and monitoring it is on the plan. It also showed up in the ct scan that was done earlier this year (where they used the term, "aneurysm", and freaked my wife out real quick). Thanks!

I did some upper body lifting while trying to kind of breathe normally. It definitely reduces how much I can use. For upper back exercises I typically squeeze my shoulder blades together and pause. I can't pause for long at all lifting this way. I'll just have to adjust as I definitely don't want the dilation to increase and particularly don't want a rupture...

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Re: Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:41 pm

Cayenne wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:14 pm
Ryan wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:12 pm

I would say light enough so you don't perform a valsalva maneuver (holding your breath and trying to push out).
Ryan, thank you for the info. Is what you're describing the same as Pavel's teaching about, when in the strain portion of the lift, releasing the breath through pursed lips and emitting a "tssss..." sound?

If that is correct, then what you are suggesting is a level of exertion that does not necessitate such breathing, yes? So, smooth inhalation / exhalation?
\
Interesting that all the old bodybuilders recommend lifting like this: smooth, complete reps with no "strain" (i.e., valsalva maneuver).
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Re: Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by Cayenne » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:20 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:41 pm
Cayenne wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:14 pm
Ryan wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:12 pm

I would say light enough so you don't perform a valsalva maneuver (holding your breath and trying to push out).
Ryan, thank you for the info. Is what you're describing the same as Pavel's teaching about, when in the strain portion of the lift, releasing the breath through pursed lips and emitting a "tssss..." sound?

If that is correct, then what you are suggesting is a level of exertion that does not necessitate such breathing, yes? So, smooth inhalation / exhalation?
\
Interesting that all the old bodybuilders recommend lifting like this: smooth, complete reps with no "strain" (i.e., valsalva maneuver).
This past May I had what was diagnosed as a TIA / mini-stroke.

For several minutes I had trouble putting a sentence together ("word salad") and I was told I had a slight face-droop on one side.

I was given TPA ("clot buster") and spent 2 days in hospital for tests and observation.

Ultimately, symptoms were "cryptogenic" (Of unknown origin).

I am almost 59 years old, about 5'11", 180ish.

Until that day, every physical and blood test of my life ended with, "whatever you're doing, keep doing it".

Karate as a youth and in young adulthood, long distance jogging (up to a couple marathons) as a young adult, race walking which turned into HeavyHand walking, a few years of Aikido, swimming laps, using C2 rower, daily KB swings, little bouts of lifting but never stuck with it long enough to get very far, yeah, I guess that's about it.

One thing that was different that morning was that I was pulling a hex bar for some modified DLs.

Very light for anyone else here, and not much of an effort for me, (225lbs) but I had not done it in awhile and figured maybe I'd ease into a GTG habit.

I used Pavel's "Tsss...." method of tightening up and releasing the pressure like a tire with a hole.

I related this one difference to all the docs, not in that level of detail, but I think I did mention valsalva.

No one correlated it with anything.

Just sayin...

Thanks for the info Ryan!

Wishing you best of health Kirk.

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Re: Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by SubClaw » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:58 am

Ryan wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:09 pm
Kirk wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:55 pm
The aortic root is mildly dilated.
Keep an eye on that. Another possible byproduct of high blood pressure/ valsalva during lifting.
Avoiding the Valsalva maneouver might be the perfect auto-regulation tool (unless you are into strength sports). If you are forced to use it, maybe the load is way too heavy and you would be better off using lighter weights (from a health standpoint).

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Re: Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by Kirk » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:50 pm

Cayenne wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:20 pm
Wishing you best of health Kirk.
Thanks! I'm turning 50 in a month so I'm hoping to get another 30-40 years out of this heart ;)
SubClaw wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:58 am
Avoiding the Valsalva maneouver might be the perfect auto-regulation tool (unless you are into strength sports). If you are forced to use it, maybe the load is way too heavy and you would be better off using lighter weights (from a health standpoint).
Yeah, that's the plan. I'm heading to the gym right now to try out regular breathing with trap bar deadlifts. It should be interesting...

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Re: Weight Training, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

Post by SubClaw » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:15 pm

Kirk wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:50 pm
Yeah, that's the plan. I'm heading to the gym right now to try out regular breathing with trap bar deadlifts. It should be interesting...
Please, report back after a few sessions. I'm pretty interested in the subject.

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