Strong Endurance

The only place you can learns about balls.

Moderators: Dux, seeahill

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6495
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:35 am

I agree. If I only could do one.
Image

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6495
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:25 pm

Al Ciampa, one of the Strong First guys, on their podcast talking about Aerobic Alactic training (A&A).

https://www.strongfirst.com/podcast-epi ... al-ciampa/
Image

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6495
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:24 am

I've been lurking on Strong First forum and website. Strong Endurance is kept in deep secret, to the point of actually being funny. I guess they will milk everything out of seminars and then come out with the book.

In any case, the method is not that complicated. I went once more through Khozhurkin's book, the part that deals with training. The idea is still as mentioned before: lift for short sets avoiding lactate production, rest sufficiently, repeat for prolonged period of time. You can gauge the intensity and recovery by Maffetone HR estimate - don't exceed it during the set and let HR go 20 - 25 beats/min below it. Some of SF posters use snatches, and from what I can gather there are numerous protocols in the seminar manual using one or two lifts doing essentially the same thing, working out for an hour at lowish HR.

Or, you can work in series. For example, five sets of 10 snatches, rest one minute between, then longer rest, repeat five sets and so on. It makes sense if you decide to work with heavier load. From my experience with GS fatigue tends to add up from set to set if you lift heavy, so in order to avoid lactate accumulation (which I think is the cause of accumulated fatigue) you have to take longer breaks from time to time.

The progression is decreasing rest between series, decreasing rest between sets and increasing reps per set. In Khozhurkin's book which is devoted to pullups the goal is to do 50 - 60 pullups in four minutes. For GPP it makes sense to stick to increasing work capacity over an hour - increased load and maybe cadence, keeping rest intervals the same while maintaining the same low(ish) hear rate.

I am planning to try this with double KB jerks, my favorite lift. Not sure yet with 16 or 20 kg (have to try). Or maybe snatches, they may be easier to use with the HR monitor.
Image

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6495
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:47 am

Video summary of the method.



This dude has a thread on StrongFirst forum: https://www.strongfirst.com/community/t ... bic.10381/

His progression is to doing the same work - 20+ sets of 5 reps - in less time and lower heart rate. I understand currently he is snatching 48 kg.
Image

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6495
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:13 am

I tried this today, except with 20 kg... Snatching more or less on the minute, depending on my heart rate, which I tried to keep under 130. It's quite interesting actually: aerbic system switches on with a bit of a delay, about ten minutes. So durther into the workout the heart rate tends to stay lower and rest intervals become shorter. My HR monitor is not optimal, it's Mio that you wear on the writs, not very reliable when you move a lot and contract the muscles of the forearm where Mio sits.

Anyway, 10 crisp sets of five per hand, about 16 - 20 minutes total. Will try next time with 22 kg.
Image

User avatar
Mickey O'neil
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 21943
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:49 pm
Location: The Pale Blue Dot

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Mickey O'neil » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:45 pm

I may try this.

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6495
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:53 pm

Have to edit images before posting
Image

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6495
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:53 am

Screenshot of the Polar Beat app - summaries of the workout I posted earlier
Attachments
PolarHR.jpg
PolarHR.jpg (41.43 KiB) Viewed 1017 times
Image

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6495
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:55 am

Another screenshot. 259 kcal in 30 minutes without really pushing myself. The proverbial birds, cardio and lifting in one.
Attachments
PolarHR1.jpg
PolarHR1.jpg (42.46 KiB) Viewed 1016 times
Image

User avatar
Shafpocalypse Now
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 21053
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:26 pm

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Mon May 06, 2019 12:50 pm

It is hilarious how they are keeping this shit under wraps.

Check out Mark Rifkin's blog as you can find examples of what he's doing for it in some of his workouts.

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6495
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Tue May 07, 2019 3:11 am

True, that place is super secretive. And their free handouts are pretty slim, considering what others put out.

At the end of the day it comes to this:

1. Estimate MAF HR = 180 - age
2. Choose 1 - 5 lifts that get your heart rate up
3. Lift until your HR gets to MAF
4. Rest until HR goes down to MAF - 15 or 20 beats/min
5. Repeat. The same lift or more in a circuit.
6. Aim at long workout, at least 30 minutes.
Image

Hanglow Joe
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 413
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:12 pm
Location: North of Vag
Contact:

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Hanglow Joe » Sat May 11, 2019 11:20 am

I can't believe Rif still does a blog and films his sets. Good for him, though, I laughed out loud when he was commenting on his "CNS". Give me a break. I was waiting for the Z Health techniques he was using not to burn out.

I have zero interest in that A + A stuff. I'd much rather do MetCon with kettlebells. Quicker and packs more of a punch.

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6495
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Wed May 15, 2019 11:55 pm

I'd much rather do MetCon with kettlebells. Quicker and packs more of a punch
Depends on the goals, as per previous two pages of the thread.
Image

User avatar
Shafpocalypse Now
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 21053
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:26 pm

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Fri May 17, 2019 3:01 pm

SubClaw wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:28 am
I’m talking out of my ass here, but...

Since I discovered ‘girevoy sport’, I always thought it was the “perfect” way to train for the martial artist. But, for the life of me, I can’t figure out how to make it work for non ballistic exercises.

I mean, a ten minute set of LCCJ is hard as fuck, but the fatigue is widely spread all over the body, so you can actually keep going. How could you make that work with, say, squats, pull ups or any other grinds?

Maybe re-cleaning the bells before each squat would be a feasible way to stay “fresh”, I don’t know. Or alternating opposing exercises, like a lower body push (squats) and an upper body pull (pull ups).

For some reason, an old video from Boris’ YouTube channel comes to mind...
You use a safety squat bar for squats.
You look at an analog clock.
You do one squat every 5 seconds. It is a rest/pause method for sure, but you are always under load.
You do this for minutes at a time. 10-12 is pretty solid and you build some pretty interesting physical endurance.

The SSB can just sit on your traps, you don't have to hold it there, but the handles are easy to hold onto.
There are postural muscles challenged by the bar being on your back for minutes at a time.
It's extremely scalable. I've done 155x12:00 with a rep every 5 seconds. I've done 275 for 5:00. I've had a trainee do start with 65# for 2 sets of 3 minutes and progressed her to 115# for 8 minutes, she weighed 120 lbs.

When I start this cycle again, I set weight and total time. For me, it's 155 (bar + 2 45# plates) and 8:00 total time.
If detrained, I might start off with 4 sets of 2:00
If in decent shape, I might start off with 1 set of 5:00 and 1 set of 3:00. There is no right way.

If I really want to extend the time, I may switch to doing 1 rep every 10 seconds towards the end.

User avatar
Shafpocalypse Now
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 21053
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:26 pm

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Fri May 17, 2019 3:03 pm

Also, your feet will burn doing this, they are not used to being under a static load like this. Make sure you don't let them collapse. I often do this barefoot

Ripe Turd
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 413
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:34 pm

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Ripe Turd » Fri May 17, 2019 5:18 pm

How don't get how this is any different from density training that Ethan Reeves was using more than 10 years ago?

Boris
Top
Posts: 1511
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:54 am

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Boris » Sun May 19, 2019 12:19 am

I can never remember names and protocols anymore - I thought EDT from Charles Staley was, generally 15 minutes of two exercises, just going for as many reps as you can do well. Ethan Reeves, I thought was, for example, having a rep target and timing how long it took you to get there.

I've been doing a lot of higher rep squats and some EDT stuff (a la Charles Staley) lately. I bought a HR monitor early this year and have been playing with it as well. I think my old-school photo bucket account is closed, so I don't know where to upload and link pics so that they can be viewed here - suggestions?

Ripe Turd
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 413
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:34 pm

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Ripe Turd » Sun May 19, 2019 3:18 pm

From Dragondoor forum, 2002 :

Ethan Reeve :

Let start by saying that strength training is
something you should do because it is fun. I also strongly believe there are many ways to accomplish goals. So, pick the method you will have fun with or be creative after gaining all the knowledge you can acquire at the time. With that in mind I can attack questions from the perspective of a sport coach, strength coach of athletes, an old retired athlete, and more importantly a middle aged guy with no particular goals other than just trying to keep in a little shape. "Density Training" is something I started doing back in the 1970's and have done with many athletes. I have found it also to be successful for non-athletes, middle-aged.I will answer your questions one at a time.
1. You decide what you want from lifting or bodyweight cals. Do you prefer to reach further for a higher goal or just workout and have fun?
2. Let's say your max reps on the chins is 5RM.And you want to be able to do 12 reps in one set.I would want you to do 24 reps for your total volume.You would do 12 sets of 2 in 12 mins.Meaning you start a new set every 60 secs. When this becomes easy you do 8x3's in 8 mins.When this is easy do 6 sets of 4 reps in 6 mins.Then do 5 sets of 5 reps. When this is easy do 4 sets of 6 reps in 4 mins. I recommend doing this 2-3 times per week. Some prefer to to bodyweight cals everyday. This works as long as the volume isn't too high. How can you tell when it's too high. Are you enjoying the workout? Is the workout fun? I'm not talking about having a pizza party having fun. What I say is do you enjoy using your body in motion, flexing, sweating, etc,? Workout because it's fun and because you've gotten a sense of accomplishment from it.Don't workout so many times per week because some authority says to. Only you know your body and your circumstances. We have great strength authorities on this forum. Listen and see if what someone says has merit for you. I get visits from tons of strength and sport coaches every year. They ask for what we do with our athletes. I wouldn't expect anyone to train their athletes exactly as I do. Every college strength coach trains their athletes differently. I listen to all of them. I also listen to everyone on this forum and every high school coach that visits us. But I will make the ultimate decision on how to train the athletes I work with.
3. I have our athletes do "density training" with olympic lifts. However, the difference is you can modify the resisitance with olympic lifting where as with bodyweight cals you can't unless you add weight to chins, pushups, hindu squats, etc. I prefer doing low reps in olympic lifts . I would use "density training " for kettlebells also. Here are some keys for all bodyweight, kettlebells, and olympic lifts when doing "density Training": 1. Rest no less than 30 secs. between sets 2. when the reps in a set exceed 30 secs. then rest one or more minutes between sets. 3. do not take a set to failure, you should always have a little left in you.
The US Women's Rowing I worked that did so well with our rowing combos on olympic lifts did 10 of these combos in twenty five minutes. Each set of the combo lasted between 40-55-secs. each depending on the athlete.So, we started a new set every 2 1/2 mins. After their 3rd set their heartrate stayed above 176 throughout the rest of the 7 combos and some were as high as 208 to 220. Were they having fun? Probably not! But their sense of accomplishment was high and there ultimate goal was gold medals in the world championships in which they were highly successful.I had the responsibility to modify their strength workouts so as not to overtrain.
I hope this has helped!
In Strength,
Ethan Reeve

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6495
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Sat May 25, 2019 3:43 am

EDT has been around for a long time. Probably because it works. Some coaches recommend waving the total volume from session to session (light, moderate and hard sessions), to avoid overtraining and injury, but the principle of going from X sets of N reps to one set of N x X is valid.

In A+A lifting with kettle bells total volume is not less of a problem, because rest intervals are quite long. It's still worthwhile waving it.
Image

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 37626
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Fat Cat » Wed May 29, 2019 9:59 pm

Ripe Turd wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:18 pm
From Dragondoor forum, 2002 :

Ethan Reeve :

Let start by saying that strength training is
something you should do because it is fun. I also strongly believe there are many ways to accomplish goals. So, pick the method you will have fun with or be creative after gaining all the knowledge you can acquire at the time. With that in mind I can attack questions from the perspective of a sport coach, strength coach of athletes, an old retired athlete, and more importantly a middle aged guy with no particular goals other than just trying to keep in a little shape. "Density Training" is something I started doing back in the 1970's and have done with many athletes. I have found it also to be successful for non-athletes, middle-aged.I will answer your questions one at a time.
1. You decide what you want from lifting or bodyweight cals. Do you prefer to reach further for a higher goal or just workout and have fun?
2. Let's say your max reps on the chins is 5RM.And you want to be able to do 12 reps in one set.I would want you to do 24 reps for your total volume.You would do 12 sets of 2 in 12 mins.Meaning you start a new set every 60 secs. When this becomes easy you do 8x3's in 8 mins.When this is easy do 6 sets of 4 reps in 6 mins.Then do 5 sets of 5 reps. When this is easy do 4 sets of 6 reps in 4 mins. I recommend doing this 2-3 times per week. Some prefer to to bodyweight cals everyday. This works as long as the volume isn't too high. How can you tell when it's too high. Are you enjoying the workout? Is the workout fun? I'm not talking about having a pizza party having fun. What I say is do you enjoy using your body in motion, flexing, sweating, etc,? Workout because it's fun and because you've gotten a sense of accomplishment from it.Don't workout so many times per week because some authority says to. Only you know your body and your circumstances. We have great strength authorities on this forum. Listen and see if what someone says has merit for you. I get visits from tons of strength and sport coaches every year. They ask for what we do with our athletes. I wouldn't expect anyone to train their athletes exactly as I do. Every college strength coach trains their athletes differently. I listen to all of them. I also listen to everyone on this forum and every high school coach that visits us. But I will make the ultimate decision on how to train the athletes I work with.
3. I have our athletes do "density training" with olympic lifts. However, the difference is you can modify the resisitance with olympic lifting where as with bodyweight cals you can't unless you add weight to chins, pushups, hindu squats, etc. I prefer doing low reps in olympic lifts . I would use "density training " for kettlebells also. Here are some keys for all bodyweight, kettlebells, and olympic lifts when doing "density Training": 1. Rest no less than 30 secs. between sets 2. when the reps in a set exceed 30 secs. then rest one or more minutes between sets. 3. do not take a set to failure, you should always have a little left in you.
The US Women's Rowing I worked that did so well with our rowing combos on olympic lifts did 10 of these combos in twenty five minutes. Each set of the combo lasted between 40-55-secs. each depending on the athlete.So, we started a new set every 2 1/2 mins. After their 3rd set their heartrate stayed above 176 throughout the rest of the 7 combos and some were as high as 208 to 220. Were they having fun? Probably not! But their sense of accomplishment was high and there ultimate goal was gold medals in the world championships in which they were highly successful.I had the responsibility to modify their strength workouts so as not to overtrain.
I hope this has helped!
In Strength,
Ethan Reeve
Good memory, that's exactly what I think of when people talk about escalating density training. He was the first person I heard about it from on the old DD forum.
Image
"Prepare your hearts as a fortress, for there will be no other." -Francisco Pizarro González

User avatar
Mickey O'neil
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 21943
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:49 pm
Location: The Pale Blue Dot

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Mickey O'neil » Thu May 30, 2019 12:48 pm

Yep. He discussed it at a few of his seminars as well.
Fat Cat wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 9:59 pm
Ripe Turd wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:18 pm
From Dragondoor forum, 2002 :

Ethan Reeve :

Let start by saying that strength training is
something you should do because it is fun. I also strongly believe there are many ways to accomplish goals. So, pick the method you will have fun with or be creative after gaining all the knowledge you can acquire at the time. With that in mind I can attack questions from the perspective of a sport coach, strength coach of athletes, an old retired athlete, and more importantly a middle aged guy with no particular goals other than just trying to keep in a little shape. "Density Training" is something I started doing back in the 1970's and have done with many athletes. I have found it also to be successful for non-athletes, middle-aged.I will answer your questions one at a time.
1. You decide what you want from lifting or bodyweight cals. Do you prefer to reach further for a higher goal or just workout and have fun?
2. Let's say your max reps on the chins is 5RM.And you want to be able to do 12 reps in one set.I would want you to do 24 reps for your total volume.You would do 12 sets of 2 in 12 mins.Meaning you start a new set every 60 secs. When this becomes easy you do 8x3's in 8 mins.When this is easy do 6 sets of 4 reps in 6 mins.Then do 5 sets of 5 reps. When this is easy do 4 sets of 6 reps in 4 mins. I recommend doing this 2-3 times per week. Some prefer to to bodyweight cals everyday. This works as long as the volume isn't too high. How can you tell when it's too high. Are you enjoying the workout? Is the workout fun? I'm not talking about having a pizza party having fun. What I say is do you enjoy using your body in motion, flexing, sweating, etc,? Workout because it's fun and because you've gotten a sense of accomplishment from it.Don't workout so many times per week because some authority says to. Only you know your body and your circumstances. We have great strength authorities on this forum. Listen and see if what someone says has merit for you. I get visits from tons of strength and sport coaches every year. They ask for what we do with our athletes. I wouldn't expect anyone to train their athletes exactly as I do. Every college strength coach trains their athletes differently. I listen to all of them. I also listen to everyone on this forum and every high school coach that visits us. But I will make the ultimate decision on how to train the athletes I work with.
3. I have our athletes do "density training" with olympic lifts. However, the difference is you can modify the resisitance with olympic lifting where as with bodyweight cals you can't unless you add weight to chins, pushups, hindu squats, etc. I prefer doing low reps in olympic lifts . I would use "density training " for kettlebells also. Here are some keys for all bodyweight, kettlebells, and olympic lifts when doing "density Training": 1. Rest no less than 30 secs. between sets 2. when the reps in a set exceed 30 secs. then rest one or more minutes between sets. 3. do not take a set to failure, you should always have a little left in you.
The US Women's Rowing I worked that did so well with our rowing combos on olympic lifts did 10 of these combos in twenty five minutes. Each set of the combo lasted between 40-55-secs. each depending on the athlete.So, we started a new set every 2 1/2 mins. After their 3rd set their heartrate stayed above 176 throughout the rest of the 7 combos and some were as high as 208 to 220. Were they having fun? Probably not! But their sense of accomplishment was high and there ultimate goal was gold medals in the world championships in which they were highly successful.I had the responsibility to modify their strength workouts so as not to overtrain.
I hope this has helped!
In Strength,
Ethan Reeve
Good memory, that's exactly what I think of when people talk about escalating density training. He was the first person I heard about it from on the old DD forum.

Ryan
Sgt. Major
Posts: 2921
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:53 pm

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Ryan » Thu May 30, 2019 7:37 pm

It's much different from EDT. The whole point is to avoid using the glycolytic/lactic acid energy system. You use short alactic bursts and then recover using the aerobic energy system. If you feel a burn, you're doing it wrong.
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” -George Carlin

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 37626
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Fat Cat » Thu May 30, 2019 8:13 pm

I understand. A + A if anything, you would dilate the time you keep it up to prolong the aerobic effect, where with density training you would contract it. But I often hear EDT attributed to other people when Ethan was talking about it by the late 90s early 2000s.
Image
"Prepare your hearts as a fortress, for there will be no other." -Francisco Pizarro González

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6495
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Fri May 31, 2019 8:39 pm

Ryan wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 7:37 pm
It's much different from EDT. The whole point is to avoid using the glycolytic/lactic acid energy system. You use short alactic bursts and then recover using the aerobic energy system. If you feel a burn, you're doing it wrong.
You reckon? I think it's somewhat similar. You progress from many short sets to fewer and longer. In strength endurance the duration of alactic bursts is determined by heart rate. You progress by being able to do longer sets at the same heart rate - more reps in a set and have shorter rest. In Staley's EDT your set is determined by the strength (which reflects in the quality of form), and you also progress to fewer longer sets as you get stronger (ultimately one long set).
Image

User avatar
newguy
Top
Posts: 1842
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:32 am

Re: Strong Endurance

Post by newguy » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:19 am

Sangoma wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 8:39 pm
Ryan wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 7:37 pm
It's much different from EDT. The whole point is to avoid using the glycolytic/lactic acid energy system. You use short alactic bursts and then recover using the aerobic energy system. If you feel a burn, you're doing it wrong.
You reckon? I think it's somewhat similar. You progress from many short sets to fewer and longer. In strength endurance the duration of alactic bursts is determined by heart rate. You progress by being able to do longer sets at the same heart rate - more reps in a set and have shorter rest. In Staley's EDT your set is determined by the strength (which reflects in the quality of form), and you also progress to fewer longer sets as you get stronger (ultimately one long set).
I don't know if it is splitting hairs, but this - moving to one long set - is not what EDT is.

EDT was using two opposing exercises. Picking a weight. in a given block - 15 minutes, 20 minutes, whatever - increasing the reps over a block of time. once you increased reps by X percent you increased weight.

It does not matter how the sets work out. You could go from 6 sets of 5 to 50 singles.

The point I am making is that there was never any idea that the reps per set increased.

Only that the total reps increased.
"When I was little, my father was famous. He was the greatest samurai in the empire. And he was the Shogun's decapitator. He cut off the heads of a 131 Lords. It was a bad time for the empire."

Post Reply