Strong Endurance

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Ryan
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Ryan » Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:04 pm

newguy wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:19 am
Sangoma wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 8:39 pm
Ryan wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 7:37 pm
It's much different from EDT. The whole point is to avoid using the glycolytic/lactic acid energy system. You use short alactic bursts and then recover using the aerobic energy system. If you feel a burn, you're doing it wrong.
You reckon? I think it's somewhat similar. You progress from many short sets to fewer and longer. In strength endurance the duration of alactic bursts is determined by heart rate. You progress by being able to do longer sets at the same heart rate - more reps in a set and have shorter rest. In Staley's EDT your set is determined by the strength (which reflects in the quality of form), and you also progress to fewer longer sets as you get stronger (ultimately one long set).
I don't know if it is splitting hairs, but this - moving to one long set - is not what EDT is.

EDT was using two opposing exercises. Picking a weight. in a given block - 15 minutes, 20 minutes, whatever - increasing the reps over a block of time. once you increased reps by X percent you increased weight.

It does not matter how the sets work out. You could go from 6 sets of 5 to 50 singles.

The point I am making is that there was never any idea that the reps per set increased.

Only that the total reps increased.
There are similarities, but the point of Strong Endurance is to increase the capacity to do repeated bouts of short bursts of high intensity/power work (typically 10 seconds or less) by allowing longer rests so the aerobic energy system is forced to make ATP more quickly. You can add sets as you adapt, but if you increase the work period beyond a certain time, you are getting out of the alactic time frame. That's why heart rate is monitored and the glycolytic pathway is avoided. This increases mitochondria, while glycolytic work damages mitochondria.

Here's Randy Hauer's (StrongFirst) explanation:
Enter AGT.

The key is repeated bursts of short intense work with lots of rest consistently practiced over weeks or months.

Let’s break that down…

...bursts of short intense work... - 10 seconds of heavy swings, fast viking push presses, even a few steps of a heavy sled push. What we’re doing here is using up all of our money in the wallet. We’re getting the most out of the energy we have stored for immediate use.

...lots of rest... - we like to have 4:1 or more rest:work. That gives us enough time to regenerate the ATP so that we can go fast again. We’re waiting for our dividends to refill our wallet. The beta-oxidation is refilling our batteries, and that takes time.

...repeated bursts... - we do this for 15 to 30 minutes, sometimes up to an hour. If we do it long enough, we don’t quite recover fully between sets. That means we will need to very lightly tap into glycolysis. We’ll use the credit card a little, but not so much that we can’t pay the balance at the end of the month. We’re training that pathway without over-doing it and causing damages.

...practiced over weeks or months - If you keep coming back, day after day doing these style of workouts. It will tell your body that you need to have more efficient beta-oxidation to fill up your wallet quicker. Since any one mitochondrion cannot supply too much energy at once, your body builds even more mitochondria. You can burn more fat to make more ATP, you’ll have a lot of slow reactions happening in parallel. You’ll get a high power output without stressing your body. This is like re-investing your dividends. The compounding effect will build your investment so that you can have even more income later. Building more mitochondria will let you effortlessly generate ATP quickly - improving your power output.
Personally, I'd rather spend my time with low rep strength work and traditional LSD cardio.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:23 pm

newguy wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:19 am
Sangoma wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 8:39 pm
Ryan wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 7:37 pm
It's much different from EDT. The whole point is to avoid using the glycolytic/lactic acid energy system. You use short alactic bursts and then recover using the aerobic energy system. If you feel a burn, you're doing it wrong.
You reckon? I think it's somewhat similar. You progress from many short sets to fewer and longer. In strength endurance the duration of alactic bursts is determined by heart rate. You progress by being able to do longer sets at the same heart rate - more reps in a set and have shorter rest. In Staley's EDT your set is determined by the strength (which reflects in the quality of form), and you also progress to fewer longer sets as you get stronger (ultimately one long set).
I don't know if it is splitting hairs, but this - moving to one long set - is not what EDT is.

EDT was using two opposing exercises. Picking a weight. in a given block - 15 minutes, 20 minutes, whatever - increasing the reps over a block of time. once you increased reps by X percent you increased weight.

It does not matter how the sets work out. You could go from 6 sets of 5 to 50 singles.

The point I am making is that there was never any idea that the reps per set increased.

Only that the total reps increased.
It's is splitting hairs, but that's what Irongarm is about: fighting over meaningless stuff while coming up with creative insults (gone are the days of referring to sisters and mothers, this place is another level of sophistication). Anyway, even though it was Staley who first coined the term EDT the concept has been around forever. In this context increasing (escalating if you will) density meaning doing the same lifting volume in less time. Or more volume in the same time. Shouldn't matter if it's many sets or one.

The concept has been used forever. Popular preparation programs for half-marathon, for example, start from short runs separated by longer walks. Gradually the running bouts increase while walks get shorter and eventually get eliminated. That's increasing density. In girevoy sport - pretty popular Russian progression from ten one minute sets to five two minute sets to three three minute sets etc., etc. - increasing density. You can find examples pretty much anywhere.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:43 pm

Ryan, the concept of AGT or A+A has evolved over time. It's still repeated short bursts of high power lifting, but at some time someone over there introduced Maffetone's ideas of aerobic training. As you know Maffetone's method is limiting intensity to HR = 180-age. His gauge for measuring progress is one mile test which you run at the same HR. The idea being that with time you will run faster at the same heart rate. We can argue, but again, this is increasing density.

With A+A training the guys are doing said bursts till HR reaches MAF level, then rest until it gets down to arbitrary number, anything around MAF minus 10 - 20 beats/min. Their poster boy for A+A training, the guy by the name Harald Motz (you couldn't make up this name if you tried!) posted his progress with 22 repeats of 5 snatches with 40 kg from 36 minutes to 29 minutes, at the same heart rate. This is increasing density.

At the end of the day you should do what you prefer and whatever better fits the context to your training. I like the idea of A+A KB work because it kills couple or more birds in one go. And also because I am a shit runner.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Ryan » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:01 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:43 pm
Their poster boy for A+A training, the guy by the name Harald Motz (you couldn't make up this name if you tried!) posted his progress with 22 repeats of 5 snatches with 40 kg from 36 minutes to 29 minutes, at the same heart rate. This is increasing density.
I think we are arguing the same thing.

Those numbers are when he tested, not what they try to do every workout. The goal of the training is to increase density while keeping HR low, but the majority of the training for this test is what I posted in the link above, adding sets as you adapt to increase volume, keeping the actually work interval duration low (Al Ciampa typically recommends 2-3 rep sets using swing or snatches for power https://www.strongfirst.com/community/t ... 296/page-2 ). They then add some glycolytic work to peak for a test. Similar to what endurance athletes do, lower HR base work adding higher intensity work to peak for a race trying to get a faster time in competition.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by newguy » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:33 am

What is the take away with all this? Is the Strongfirst Strong Endurace AA protocol useful for general population and purposes?

Why would would someone do it? When would they do it? At what level?

I find that 10 sets of 10 on the minute worked very well for me at one point. It is what I am building back to....very slowly and conservatively. But still.....

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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:00 am

I'd say it's like going for a jog but by lifting kettlebells. The purpose of A+A is to build the aerobic energy system, which is useful for anybody. Sort of interval training with long rest periods. You become efficient getting rid of lactate.

And - Ryan is probably right - it can be HR based or time based, the principle is the same.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by newguy » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:03 am

Is there a reason a person would do this versus just doing 1 arm long cycle and switching on the minute?

I am having trouble placing this in context.

Or is it just a matter of personal preference?

Whenver I am looking to replace jogging or running with KBs, my go it is always 1 arm long cycle and switch on the minute. I've personally found it to be the most effective KB direct replacement (not supplement) for running.

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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Ryan » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:38 pm

You could use 1 arm long cycle. You would do a few reps (not more than 5),then rest until the top of the next minute. Repeat for however many rounds you plan on doing. You're training your aerobic system with the rest period, not during the exercise. You train the alactic system with the short powerful burst of reps (why you want to keep the exercise interval to 10 seconds or less).

If you're looking to get the same cardiovascular adaptations as jogging, etc. doing just this, it ain't gonna happen.

It can help your alactic capacity to execute short powerful bursts over time. A lot of the Strongfirst people are also doing regular LSD with the A + A training, but that's not mentioned in a lot of places.+
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:09 am

Good breakdown of A + A training:

Alactic Aerobic Training
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Endurance the other way

Post by Sangoma » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:53 pm

I got hold of Selouyanov's Physical Preparation of Grapplers. Decided to summarise it on my blog. The video below is an example of 10 x 10 template used by the Russian wrestlers.

The coach is Grigor Chilingaryan, one of the specialists from the laboratory of sports adaptology that was founded by Prof.Selouyanov. I assume with high probability that a researcher of this caliber works with high level athletes.

Start at 3:00.The session consists of three exercises: pushups, jumps and pullups, all done for 10 reps in a circuit, for ten rounds, the intensity of contraction - about 80%. The athlete never comes close to failure, and each rep is follower by a short rest - which gives the muscles a chance to get rid of lactic acid and avoid acidosis. This is the example of near maximal training without destroying the body. The coach recommends starting with lower rounds and building up gradually.


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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by newguy » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:56 pm

Smet -

Is there rest between exercises?
Between circuits?

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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:29 am

Meh, there is an issue with training aerobic stuff with weight in that the heart WILL NOT FULLY EXPAND AND CONTRACT WHEN UNDER A CERTAIN LOAD

I can guarantee you that 40kg is enough to inhibit the full expansion and contraction of the heart. This is why, to get beneficial morphological changes to the heart (i.e. mitigate the left ventrical hypertrophy caused by heavy weight training and high heart rate trainings) you need to do classical cyclical long duration aerobic activities

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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:22 am

Newguy- no, no rest. 10 reps with pauses of each exercise repeated 10 times.

Shaf - diastolic impairment is rate dependent. It doesn't matter if you lift 100 kg or 20 kg, if HR stays low enough it will expand sufficiently. Conversely, it doesn't matter if tachycardia is caused by jogging or lifting (Or something else, such as caffeine or extreme fright), above certain HR diastolic dysfunction will occur. In terms of intensity the way these guys are working out is not that different from a jog, just with different muscles.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:07 am

Something relatively new in endurance training:

MegaRepeats

Looks interesting.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by odin » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:58 pm

This is a great thread. I recall about a decade ago shag writing something about power bias conditioning. Can’t find it now but that seemed similar to some of the Alactic stuff
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by JasonC » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:10 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:07 am
Something relatively new in endurance training:

MegaRepeats

Looks interesting.
Cross-post from Smet's site:

Awesome, I'm signing up as Guinea Pig #1. I like anything that I can do at a Maffetone-level HR.

And I like training every day, which looks feasible on this plan, judging by how Easy Strength-y it seems. So unless you indicate otherwise, I'll try doing it about 5 days/week.

Only thing is the name. As you say, "Megapovtorka" isn't music to the Anglo ear. Before Dmitri is ready for international stardom as a fitness celebrity, he'll need a better name for it. Also, he'll need a Hollywood make-over. People will think he's an undernourished, scrappy ex-con from a Siberian prison or an unshaven Bolshevik from a Nazi propaganda poster. Also, we need to get him tanned and oiled.

But I get ahead of myself. First we need to see if it works.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:48 pm

Megapovtorka simply means MegaRepeat.
Mega Repeat is a better name.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by SubClaw » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:19 pm

JasonC wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:10 pm
Sangoma wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:07 am
Something relatively new in endurance training:

MegaRepeats

Looks interesting.
Cross-post from Smet's site:

Awesome, I'm signing up as Guinea Pig #1. I like anything that I can do at a Maffetone-level HR.

And I like training every day, which looks feasible on this plan, judging by how Easy Strength-y it seems. So unless you indicate otherwise, I'll try doing it about 5 days/week.

Only thing is the name. As you say, "Megapovtorka" isn't music to the Anglo ear. Before Dmitri is ready for international stardom as a fitness celebrity, he'll need a better name for it. Also, he'll need a Hollywood make-over. People will think he's an undernourished, scrappy ex-con from a Siberian prison or an unshaven Bolshevik from a Nazi propaganda poster. Also, we need to get him tanned and oiled.

But I get ahead of myself. First we need to see if it works.
What was your blog again? I can't fucking find it anywhere.

Hint: that is what forum signatures are for.

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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:41 pm

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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by JasonC » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:35 pm

SubClaw wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:19 pm

What was your blog again? I can't fucking find it anywhere.

Hint: that is what forum signatures are for.
Dunzo. leansoliddogs.blog
leansoliddogs.blog

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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by SubClaw » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:15 am

JasonC wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:35 pm
SubClaw wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:19 pm

What was your blog again? I can't fucking find it anywhere.

Hint: that is what forum signatures are for.
Dunzo. leansoliddogs.blog
Thanks!

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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Sangoma » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:11 pm

Central adaptations in aerobic circuit versus walking/jogging trained cardiac patients.
This study was done to determine (a) whether in coronary artery disease (CAD) left ventricular (LV) adaptations differed after 6 months of walking/jogging (legs-only, LO) versus aerobic circuit training (arms and legs, AL) versus a control group, and (b) whether a transfer of fitness to the untrained arms in the LO group was related to superior LV adaptations. Peak oxygen uptake for arm and leg ergometry and for cycle ergometry using radionuclide cardiac angiography were performed before and after training. Leg and arm VO2peak increased significantly by 13% in the AL group, and by 13% and 7%, respectively, for the LO group. LV function was greater after training for the LO versus the AL group. Improvements in systolic and diastolic function and a speculated hypervolemia explain these LV adaptations. In CAD patients, walking/jogging produces greater LV function improvements versus circuit training, possibly due to differences in the exercised muscle mass.
Some coaches insist that lifting produces enough "cardio" effect to improve the heart function. Not so.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:58 pm

Ya, it's been known since the 60's in bodybuilding circles that lifting alone is not adequate for cardiovascular health.
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Re: Strong Endurance

Post by JohnDoe » Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:01 am

If they're not testing blood lactate, they're just making stuff up.

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Re: Endurance the other way

Post by odin » Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:45 am

:ANAL:
Sangoma wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:53 pm
I got hold of Selouyanov's Physical Preparation of Grapplers. Decided to summarise it on my blog. The video below is an example of 10 x 10 template used by the Russian wrestlers.

The coach is Grigor Chilingaryan, one of the specialists from the laboratory of sports adaptology that was founded by Prof.Selouyanov. I assume with high probability that a researcher of this caliber works with high level athletes.

Start at 3:00.The session consists of three exercises: pushups, jumps and pullups, all done for 10 reps in a circuit, for ten rounds, the intensity of contraction - about 80%. The athlete never comes close to failure, and each rep is follower by a short rest - which gives the muscles a chance to get rid of lactic acid and avoid acidosis. This is the example of near maximal training without destroying the body. The coach recommends starting with lower rounds and building up gradually.




Did this exact workout yesterday. Took about 20 minutes and ‘felt’ good. HR spiked a bit initially but then stabilised around 140 for full session. Chins needed a little assist towards the end but was ok. Obviously you learn fuck all from one session but I could see why this might be applicable conditioning for a few sports. I’m trying to push my strength endurance at mo, while just having a bit of fun in training so this will be an occasional session as opposed to a constant, measured session.
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