Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

The only place you can learns about balls.

Moderators: Dux, seeahill

Ripe Turd
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 463
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:34 pm

Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by Ripe Turd » Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:31 pm

Seems like it's pretty much a full body workout in itself: https://www.instagram.com/tv/B-t17Ajjp3 ... 0r8ltq32km
Hanglow Joe wrote: Why do you need a program? Showing up a 1/2 hour a day and doing what you're doing is great. Try it for 4-6 weeks, you're not going to get dick cancer by not following a program.

User avatar
SubClaw
Top
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:01 pm

Re: Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by SubClaw » Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:23 pm

Ripe Turd wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:31 pm
Seems like it's pretty much a full body workout in itself: https://www.instagram.com/tv/B-t17Ajjp3 ... 0r8ltq32km
Quite probably because hardstyle LCCJ is basically pointless and he just won't admit that.

Besides, there are ALOT of true gireviks out there whereas there is only one S&S "master".
Image

Hanglow Joe
Gunny
Posts: 530
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:12 pm
Location: North of Vag
Contact:

Re: Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by Hanglow Joe » Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:52 am

Why teach something technical when you can make money selling books about pushups?

aussie luke
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 467
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:56 pm

Re: Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by aussie luke » Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:07 pm

For a while now I’ve thought something as simple as 10-15 mins of one arm C&J ‘practice’ followed by 10-15 mins of snatch ‘practice’ would be all you’d ever need.

...fucking hard though.

Practice could mean anything from a bunch of untimed sets or 5 x 5/5 or 10 x 10 or maybe two or three 3-5 minute sets
...I doubt the specifics would matter much.

Starting to convince myself to try this

Hanglow Joe
Gunny
Posts: 530
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:12 pm
Location: North of Vag
Contact:

Re: Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by Hanglow Joe » Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:24 pm

aussie luke wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:07 pm
For a while now I’ve thought something as simple as 10-15 mins of one arm C&J ‘practice’ followed by 10-15 mins of snatch ‘practice’ would be all you’d ever need.

...fucking hard though.

Practice could mean anything from a bunch of untimed sets or 5 x 5/5 or 10 x 10 or maybe two or three 3-5 minute sets
...I doubt the specifics would matter much.

Starting to convince myself to try this
Only if you've reached Simple and passed your ROP.

What are your goals? LOL

User avatar
Alfred_E._Neuman
Sgt. Major
Posts: 4971
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:13 am
Location: The Usual Gang of Idiots

Re: Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by Alfred_E._Neuman » Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:42 pm

aussie luke wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:07 pm
For a while now I’ve thought something as simple as 10-15 mins of one arm C&J ‘practice’ followed by 10-15 mins of snatch ‘practice’ would be all you’d ever need.

...fucking hard though.

Practice could mean anything from a bunch of untimed sets or 5 x 5/5 or 10 x 10 or maybe two or three 3-5 minute sets
...I doubt the specifics would matter much.

Starting to convince myself to try this
Article Comrade so I can take the idea, wrap it in some pseudo-science, and turn it into 150 pages of cleverly arranged white space and ads.
I don't have a lot of experience with vampires, but I have hunted werewolves. I shot one once, but by the time I got to it, it had turned back into my neighbor's dog.

Ripe Turd
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 463
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:34 pm

Re: Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by Ripe Turd » Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:03 pm

SubClaw wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:23 pm
Ripe Turd wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:31 pm
Seems like it's pretty much a full body workout in itself: https://www.instagram.com/tv/B-t17Ajjp3 ... 0r8ltq32km
Quite probably because hardstyle LCCJ is basically pointless and he just won't admit that.

Besides, there are ALOT of true gireviks out there whereas there is only one S&S "master".
WDYM by « hardstyle LCCJ is pointless »? The technique and/or how they do it (short sets vs long sets)?
Hanglow Joe wrote: Why do you need a program? Showing up a 1/2 hour a day and doing what you're doing is great. Try it for 4-6 weeks, you're not going to get dick cancer by not following a program.

User avatar
SubClaw
Top
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:01 pm

Re: Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by SubClaw » Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:27 pm

Ripe Turd wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:03 pm
WDYM by « hardstyle LCCJ is pointless »? The technique and/or how they do it (short sets vs long sets)?
If you intended to use the LCCJ as your main training tool, who would you listen to? A shady belarusian with no proven Girevoy Sport record or, say, a pretty solid champion like Ivan Denisov or Sergey Rudnev?

If you want to reap the benefits of kettlebell lifting, I think you should mimic Dunn's approach.

Doing "hardstyle" LCCJ is pretty much like competing in an olympic lifting meet and doing reverse curls and strict presses instead of a proper clean and jerk.
Image

User avatar
Shafpocalypse Now
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 21223
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:26 pm

Re: Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:24 pm

Watching pavel do the jerk in the original RKC vid is painful now.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 40108
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:41 pm

Oh somewhere on the Pavel is a Fraud thread I posted the original RKC video and it is PAINFUL. Nigga ain't no master of fucking cattleballs whatsoever.
Image
"You can’t talk with communists, you have to kill them." -Józef Mackiewicz

Ripe Turd
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 463
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:34 pm

Re: Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by Ripe Turd » Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:10 pm

Wait, I'm not supposed to do a half-squat when I do kb jerks? \:D/
SubClaw wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:27 pm
Ripe Turd wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:03 pm
WDYM by « hardstyle LCCJ is pointless »? The technique and/or how they do it (short sets vs long sets)?
If you intended to use the LCCJ as your main training tool, who would you listen to? A shady belarusian with no proven Girevoy Sport record or, say, a pretty solid champion like Ivan Denisov or Sergey Rudnev?

If you want to reap the benefits of kettlebell lifting, I think you should mimic Dunn's approach.

Doing "hardstyle" LCCJ is pretty much like competing in an olympic lifting meet and doing reverse curls and strict presses instead of a proper clean and jerk.
I agree
Alfred_E._Neuman wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:42 pm
aussie luke wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:07 pm
For a while now I’ve thought something as simple as 10-15 mins of one arm C&J ‘practice’ followed by 10-15 mins of snatch ‘practice’ would be all you’d ever need.

...fucking hard though.

Practice could mean anything from a bunch of untimed sets or 5 x 5/5 or 10 x 10 or maybe two or three 3-5 minute sets
...I doubt the specifics would matter much.

Starting to convince myself to try this
Article Comrade so I can take the idea, wrap it in some pseudo-science, and turn it into 150 pages of cleverly arranged white space and ads.
Eh, funny. Also, Pavel wrote RKC ladders in Muscle Media, which became a part of Beyond Bodybuilding, which became the Rite of Passage in ETK. Exact same program.

Q&D book also ends with a "See all the magic endurance plans you could learn if you come to our Strong Endurance seminar!" ad, similar to the ads after DD books.

I guess what I was trying to say with my initial post was that in the original RKC book, kettlebells were sold as "the ultimate GPP tool" and I don't think (technical demonstrations aside, of course) this book has still been topped. With kettlebells, you could train for maximal strength, or for android work capacity. You could use the snatch/press Program Minimum or you could design your own workouts with the Program Maximum guidelines. This is why I first bought them and this is why I still use them. It's what made them awesome, for me at least.

I think our own resident JasonC said it best on his blog: "he kettlebell is optimized for nothing, but you can use it on a “close enough” basis for many things. Squat it? Yeah, good enough. Weighted pullups? Yeah, close enough, you just hang it off your foot. It sucks but it works. Circuit training? Absolutely. Train the deadlift? Yeah, close enough, you just swing it a lot. Cardio when you have no space to run in? Sure, it’s not optimal but it’s good enough. I have also dragged kettlebells, thrown them, carried them in many positions, juggled them, used them as doorstops, tied errant dogs to them, and pounded soybeans with them. When I was in grad school, I think all I owned was a laptop and some kettlebells. Maybe you could say the kettlebell is “strategically underspecialized.” Contrast Nautilus machines or Hammer Strength machines. The Hammer machines are brilliant designs and so durable they could almost be Russian, but they only do one thing apiece and even now that I have a salary, I don’t have money and space to buy a dozen specialized machines."

Now, Pavel went from "here are many lifts you could do, and many ways to train" (RKC book) to "do swings and get-ups for GPP, for alpinism, for counter-terrorism, for swimming, for powerlifting, blablabla" and I honestly can't see why it sells so many seminars.
Hanglow Joe wrote: Why do you need a program? Showing up a 1/2 hour a day and doing what you're doing is great. Try it for 4-6 weeks, you're not going to get dick cancer by not following a program.

User avatar
newguy
Sgt. Major
Posts: 2551
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:32 am

Re: Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by newguy » Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:02 pm

It's a shame.

Double Clean and Jerks are an outstanding exercise that will develop a lot of qualities. It may seem obvious, but moving two bells is more weight than one bell. And that extra weight you are moving builds more of everything.

I think that one of the fall outs from the Great KB War was this divide that occurred. Pavel/RKC stopped focusing on the snatch, any jerk, etc. Anything GS related, they stopped teaching, programming, recommending. Double jerk, out. Viking Press, in.

Meanwhile, on the GS side, everything became about going for time. Double Jerks for time. Snatch for time. NO SETS!!!!!!

So one of the great, all time exercise programs was lost. Fast Tens with a double KB clean and jerk. Just do sets of 10 with minimal rest between sets.

Having good technique is good. But you don't have to have perfect technique. I struggle to get my elbows on my hips when I'm using two bells. I've done it. I can do it. But it's not comfortable. I don't get great "rest" in the rack. So I just don't do it. I put the bells down, shake out my arms, and then do another set.
Last edited by newguy on Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 40108
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Apr 15, 2020 5:45 pm

"Viking Press" lmao

Image
Image
"You can’t talk with communists, you have to kill them." -Józef Mackiewicz

aussie luke
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 467
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:56 pm

Re: Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by aussie luke » Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:06 pm

I think the problem is none of the GS gurus have any easily accessible “do this” articles/blog posts/ebooks etc

The only reasonably easy to access and follow GS-ish plan I’ve ever seen is Sonnon’s one-arm long cycle program.

If one of these fuckers put out a ‘program minimum’ of GS style lifting for general fitness, and maybe wrote a few hundred pages of garbage ad copy to go with it, I’d be all over that shit.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 40108
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:42 pm

aussie luke wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:06 pm
I think the problem is none of the GS gurus have any easily accessible “do this” articles/blog posts/ebooks etc

The only reasonably easy to access and follow GS-ish plan I’ve ever seen is Sonnon’s one-arm long cycle program.

If one of these fuckers put out a ‘program minimum’ of GS style lifting for general fitness, and maybe wrote a few hundred pages of garbage ad copy to go with it, I’d be all over that shit.
That's because GS is a sport for Eastern European autists. It turns out the only thing harder than 10:00 sets of kettlebell lifts is successful human communication.
Image
"You can’t talk with communists, you have to kill them." -Józef Mackiewicz

User avatar
SubClaw
Top
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:01 pm

Re: Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by SubClaw » Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:51 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:42 pm
That's because GS is a sport for Eastern European autists. It turns out the only thing harder than 10:00 sets of kettlebell lifts is successful human communication.
You Kaz impersonation keeps getting better and better.
Image

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 40108
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:09 pm

Gonna need a diagramatic evaluation of your canthal tilt before I can respond in detail.
Image
"You can’t talk with communists, you have to kill them." -Józef Mackiewicz

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 7007
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by Sangoma » Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:06 am

aussie luke wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:06 pm
I think the problem is none of the GS gurus have any easily accessible “do this” articles/blog posts/ebooks etc

The only reasonably easy to access and follow GS-ish plan I’ve ever seen is Sonnon’s one-arm long cycle program.

If one of these fuckers put out a ‘program minimum’ of GS style lifting for general fitness, and maybe wrote a few hundred pages of garbage ad copy to go with it, I’d be all over that shit.
GS is a very marginal, specific activity. Not very attractive to the general fitness crowd. Also, the technique required for GS is more complicated, as opposed to learning lifts for ten rep sets.

The simplest GS-like workout is continuous snatching with frequent hand switch. Start with 16 kg, switch hands every 10 reps. Gradually build the reps. You can do it in cotton gloves: it will protect the hands and will give you a hell of a grip workout. Gireviks use it to improve the technique - gloves force you to unload the grip.
Image

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 7007
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by Sangoma » Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:11 am

I reckon next GS-like program would be continuous one arm jerks with frequent switch. You will ask why not C&J - I like the idea of time under tension. C&J would be next on the list.

I reckon 200 snatches followed after a short break by 200 OA jerks, both switching arms every 10 reps, would be a very good workout. A pull and a push.

C&S is great on it's own. Here you go, quasi-GS: biathlon or C&J.
Image

User avatar
Dunn
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6779
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:06 pm
Location: Georgia

Re: Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by Dunn » Wed May 13, 2020 8:20 pm

aussie luke wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:06 pm
I think the problem is none of the GS gurus have any easily accessible “do this” articles/blog posts/ebooks etc

The only reasonably easy to access and follow GS-ish plan I’ve ever seen is Sonnon’s one-arm long cycle program.

If one of these fuckers put out a ‘program minimum’ of GS style lifting for general fitness, and maybe wrote a few hundred pages of garbage ad copy to go with it, I’d be all over that shit.
Give me a few months and I plan on having something in this ballpark out for ebook and possibly print.

The Ginger Beard Man
Sgt. Major
Posts: 4376
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:27 pm
Location: 4th largest city in America

Re: Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by The Ginger Beard Man » Wed May 13, 2020 8:37 pm

Dunn wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 8:20 pm
aussie luke wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:06 pm
I think the problem is none of the GS gurus have any easily accessible “do this” articles/blog posts/ebooks etc

The only reasonably easy to access and follow GS-ish plan I’ve ever seen is Sonnon’s one-arm long cycle program.

If one of these fuckers put out a ‘program minimum’ of GS style lifting for general fitness, and maybe wrote a few hundred pages of garbage ad copy to go with it, I’d be all over that shit.
Give me a few months and I plan on having something in this ballpark out for ebook and possibly print.
I thought of you as soon as I read that.
Have it ready for the fall/winter Covid season, ok. Thanks.
Blaidd Drwg wrote:Disengage from the outcome and do work.
Jezzy Bell wrote:Use a fucking barbell, pansy.

User avatar
SubClaw
Top
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:01 pm

Re: Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by SubClaw » Wed May 13, 2020 8:57 pm

Dunn wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 8:20 pm
Give me a few months and I plan on having something in this ballpark out for ebook and possibly print.
Yes, please!
Image

Ripe Turd
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 463
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:34 pm

Re: Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by Ripe Turd » Wed May 13, 2020 9:09 pm

If I preorder, are you sending me N95 masks?? Or an Isochain?

If not, maybe I'm not interested...
Hanglow Joe wrote: Why do you need a program? Showing up a 1/2 hour a day and doing what you're doing is great. Try it for 4-6 weeks, you're not going to get dick cancer by not following a program.

User avatar
Dunn
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6779
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:06 pm
Location: Georgia

Re: Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by Dunn » Wed May 13, 2020 9:19 pm

Thanks gents. Trying to work out the final draft, some graphics/pics, and the like. Probably will use Amazon KDP publishing for ebook and possibly paper. I will give updates as they come. Waiting on the super short ranger panties to come in for some photos.

aussie luke
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 467
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:56 pm

Re: Why isn't Pavel selling C&J as the Program Minimum?

Post by aussie luke » Thu May 14, 2020 12:15 pm

Dunn wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 9:19 pm
Thanks gents. Trying to work out the final draft, some graphics/pics, and the like. Probably will use Amazon KDP publishing for ebook and possibly paper. I will give updates as they come. Waiting on the super short ranger panties to come in for some photos.
I was going to offer you my graphic design services until I read that last sentence

Post Reply