The Social Dilemma on Netflix

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Bram
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The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by Bram » Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:51 pm

A documentary on the ills of social media.

I’ve read three books in the past few years on the downsides of social media, but found some new points.

* People have been warning about when AI overcomes human strengths and intelligence, but what we have now — already — is AI overcoming human weaknesses.

* According to an MIT study, fake news spreads six times faster on Twitter than real news.

* Because algorithms are based on maximizing engagement, our feeds reflect our world views (resulting in a lack of diversity of sources), trend towards fake news, and over promote the outrageous — recommending things like Flat Earth, Q-Anon, Pizzagate and so on.

* With our feeds (google searches, YouTube recommendations, Facebook ads) optimized towards our engagement history, as a liberal, I get a completely different experience than my conservative friends. We are literally experiencing distinct worlds.

* The end result: addiction to our devices and apps; a destruction of community; narcissism, despair, and an erosion of truth.
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Re: The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by Alfred_E._Neuman » Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:02 pm

One of the subject matter experts for the documentary, Tristan Harris, was on Sam Harris' podcast this week. It's on my cue of things to listen to some time this coming week. I can't watch the doc since we don't have Netflix, but I'm sure someone will boot leg it soon enough.

What I'm hoping Sam gets into with Tristan is how much of the divide between left and right that's being driven by the algorithms is intentional vs. just a by product of getting fed information that reinforces your views and puts you in an echo chamber. It's feeling more and more to me like the division is intentional. Get the plebs distracted fighting amongst themselves about their little political and social BS while the powers at the top funnel all the productivity into their own pockets.
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Re: The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:11 pm

Be very careful about what gets designated as "fake news". It may very well be, but that's a very broad brush to paint with. I read this article over the weekend that's related to this discussion:

“Right-wing populism is always more engaging," a Facebook executive said in a recent interview with POLITICO reporters, when pressed why the pages of conservatives drive such high interactions. The person said the content speaks to "an incredibly strong, primitive emotion" by touching on such topics as "nation, protection, the other, anger, fear."

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/2 ... 020-421146

Even here, consider that just because something creates a visceral reaction doesn't make it false, but it does give it legs to travel quickly through cyberspace. The subtext of the article is pejorative, of course, explaining why right wing ideas that are based on natural sensibilities are dangerous and providing a predicate for censorship.
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Re: The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by nafod » Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:24 pm

People in general get more excited about potential loss than potential gain. Right Wing populism now is about avoiding loss. It makes sense that there'd be more emotions attached to it.
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Re: The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:28 pm

nafod wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:24 pm
Right Wing populism now is about avoiding loss.
For the sake of conversation, let's assume that's true. The natural question then is why do so many people fear loss? Loss of what? And who is jeopardizing them?
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Re: The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by nafod » Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:36 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:28 pm
nafod wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:24 pm
Right Wing populism now is about avoiding loss.
For the sake of conversation, let's assume that's true. The natural question then is why do so many people fear loss? Loss of what? And who is jeopardizing them?
Off the top of my head...first, the world is changing, a lot of steady jobs are going away due to technology or overseas (globalism). That's a loss.

A good thing of the virus might be a pushback on globalism.

Second, demographics is destiny. The traditional privileged position of us white folks as the majority is passing into us holding a plurality.

For the evangelicals, churchgoing has dropped and sinning has increased. The old way of life is passing on.
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Re: The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:13 pm

nafod wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:36 pm
Off the top of my head...first, the world is changing, a lot of steady jobs are going away due to technology or overseas (globalism). That's a loss.
Sure, but the world is always changing, and the big change to an information driven economy happened years ago. It's not like the factories just closed last week.
nafod wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:36 pm
A good thing of the virus might be a pushback on globalism.
Good, that's very good. You might be playing for our team soon. Let's stay with that...
nafod wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:36 pm
Second, demographics is destiny. The traditional privileged position of us white folks as the majority is passing into us holding a plurality.
Wait a minute. I thought the "Great Replacement" was fake news. But of course, it's not. It's the corollary basic function of globalism to atomize populations and to shift the global south to the north, balkanizing any population that threatens the march of globalism (i.e., "White" people). And globalism is the head of a snake whose tail is called "internationalism" and brought to you by the same generous people. And what these people want is a steady stream of low-cost labor and consumers with no community, history, religion, or prejudices to get in their way.
nafod wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:36 pm
For the evangelicals, churchgoing has dropped and sinning has increased. The old way of life is passing on.
The old way is always passing on, but it's worth asking yourself why globalism-internationalism requires sin and proscribes religion.
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Re: The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by nafod » Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:56 pm

Wait a minute. I thought the "Great Replacement" was fake news. But of course, it's not. <stuff about globalism>
It's simpler than that. White folks such as you and yours aren't having as many kids. The white population is below replacement rate. The other populations are filling in.

I've got three kids. Did my part.
The old way is always passing on, but it's worth asking yourself why globalism-internationalism requires sin and proscribes religion.
One person's sin...

Things like women's rights and gay rights are gains for lefties, but sinful or wrong and therefore losses for the evangelicals.
Don’t believe everything you think.

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Re: The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:15 pm

nafod wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:56 pm
Wait a minute. I thought the "Great Replacement" was fake news. But of course, it's not. <stuff about globalism>
It's simpler than that. White folks such as you and yours aren't having as many kids. The white population is below replacement rate. The other populations are filling in.
This is a key misconception. There is no stone tablet hidden in some ancient monastery that establishes that a country must open the floodgates to every fly-swept latrine of the Turd World when their population undergoes a natural decline. If, in 100 years, there are 200 million Americans rather than 330 million Americans as is the case today, what of it? Who says that's a bad thing?
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Re: The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by nafod » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:27 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:15 pm
nafod wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:56 pm
Wait a minute. I thought the "Great Replacement" was fake news. But of course, it's not. <stuff about globalism>
It's simpler than that. White folks such as you and yours aren't having as many kids. The white population is below replacement rate. The other populations are filling in.
This is a key misconception. There is no stone tablet hidden in some ancient monastery that establishes that a country must open the floodgates to every fly-swept latrine of the Turd World when their population undergoes a natural decline. If, in 100 years, there are 200 million Americans rather than 330 million Americans as is the case today, what of it? Who says that's a bad thing?
Japan is certainly an example of how to decline, since they’re both xenophobic and unreproductive. But hard decisions need to made on how the society will be run. Currently we depend on growth, and young people.
Don’t believe everything you think.

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Re: The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by Fat Cat » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:40 pm

nafod wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:27 pm
Fat Cat wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:15 pm
nafod wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:56 pm
Wait a minute. I thought the "Great Replacement" was fake news. But of course, it's not. <stuff about globalism>
It's simpler than that. White folks such as you and yours aren't having as many kids. The white population is below replacement rate. The other populations are filling in.
This is a key misconception. There is no stone tablet hidden in some ancient monastery that establishes that a country must open the floodgates to every fly-swept latrine of the Turd World when their population undergoes a natural decline. If, in 100 years, there are 200 million Americans rather than 330 million Americans as is the case today, what of it? Who says that's a bad thing?
Japan is certainly an example of how to decline, since they’re both xenophobic and unreproductive. But hard decisions need to made on how the society will be run. Currently we depend on growth, and young people.
There is no problem on this planet that is improved by the addition of a boatload of Somalians.
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Re: The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by Luke » Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:21 am

In 2010, someone told me verbally, in person a relative was doing Krav Maga. Within 10 minutes I got a target ad for a local Krav school. I had never searched for it, or even had an interest.

I thought it was odd, but kept happening over the next 4 years. Everyone I knew told me I was paranoid and there was no way "they" would be listening etc - even those who worked in SEO! This was before products like Alexa etc.

The bleak thing is whatever levels of discord docs like The Social Dilemma cover, there's probably 100x worse things already in action.

The fact that AI has now even outpaced Google engineers is amusing to me. Unless those machines were teaching courses, I couldn't work out why people in the corporate sector wanted to keep paying for search engine know-how from Google lackeys.

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Re: The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:43 am

It's obviously a glitch in human nature that Rightist views are so popular.

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Re: The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:54 am

Luke wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:21 am
In 2010, someone told me verbally, in person a relative was doing Krav Maga. Within 10 minutes I got a target ad for a local Krav school. I had never searched for it, or even had an interest.

I thought it was odd, but kept happening over the next 4 years. Everyone I knew told me I was paranoid and there was no way "they" would be listening etc - even those who worked in SEO! This was before products like Alexa etc.

The bleak thing is whatever levels of discord docs like The Social Dilemma cover, there's probably 100x worse things already in action.

The fact that AI has now even outpaced Google engineers is amusing to me. Unless those machines were teaching courses, I couldn't work out why people in the corporate sector wanted to keep paying for search engine know-how from Google lackeys.
Your phone, any kindle, your Amazon Fire or Alexa, or other smart speaker, or even your laptop can be used to surveil you via both the speaker and the camera. Whenever presented with the option, reject any "would you like to anonymously provide information to X to improve your user experience?" notifications.
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Re: The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by nafod » Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:15 pm

Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:43 am
It's obviously a glitch in human nature that Rightist views are so popular.
The rightest views are in the minority, but due to structural issues with how the country votes, they get over-represented in the Senate and in Presidential elections, and soon in the Supreme Court.

The Email Lady beat Orange Man Bad by 3,000,000 votes. There were three million more Americans wanting her instead of him.

There's your glitch.
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Re: The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:08 pm

No the point was that rightist views have to be suppressed because they are so popular and go "viral".

There is no suppression of Leftist arguments and they win only when the Institutions enforce them.

The reason for the world-historical suppression of thought is because those thoughts are very appealing and pose an actual threat to the power structure.

Blacks and trannys and gays and anti-White sentiment are not opposed and are encouraged because they further the aims of the powerful.

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Re: The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by nafod » Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:12 pm

Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:08 pm
No the point was that rightist views have to be suppressed because they are so popular and go "viral".

There is no suppression of Leftist arguments and they win only when the Institutions enforce them.

The reason for the world-historical suppression of thought is because those thoughts are very appealing and pose an actual threat to the power structure.

Blacks and trannys and gays and anti-White sentiment are not opposed and are encouraged because they further the aims of the powerful.
???

I'm pretty sure authoritarian power structure leans heavily right. There's a reason folks like Putin supports Trump. He protects and strengthens their power structure.
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Re: The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:18 pm

The category "Authoritarianism is rightist" is purely subversive and facile.

The Frankfurt School was an actual communist front.

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Re: The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by nafod » Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:40 pm

I agree with you that authoritarianism and rightist aren't automatic. Watching Hitler and Stalin go at it proved that point.

But at the moment, for today's flavor of authoritarianism, it leans right.
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Re: The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:52 pm

nafod wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:15 pm
Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:43 am
It's obviously a glitch in human nature that Rightist views are so popular.
The rightest views are in the minority, but due to structural issues with how the country votes, they get over-represented in the Senate and in Presidential elections, and soon in the Supreme Court.

The Email Lady beat Orange Man Bad by 3,000,000 votes. There were three million more Americans wanting her instead of him.

There's your glitch.
The only reason the Left even approaches the numbers of the right is because it pumps immigrants into the system that do not share the values of legacy Americans.
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Re: The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by nafod » Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:05 pm

The majority of Americans support, for example, gay marriage, Obamacare, the right to abortion, marijuana legalization, and a path to citizenship for immigrants. Yet we have a Senate that is majority against them, and are about to get a SCOTUS that is likely against all of those by a 6-3 margin.

When the government is ruled by minority opinion, then the majority feel like the government works for someone else, and will seek redress otherways. The right's minority rule is a problem.
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Re: The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:28 pm

nafod wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:05 pm
The majority of Americans support, for example, gay marriage, Obamacare, the right to abortion, marijuana legalization, and a path to citizenship for immigrants. Yet we have a Senate that is majority against them, and are about to get a SCOTUS that is likely against all of those by a 6-3 margin.
The majority of Americans are mentally incapacitated and ensconced in a cloud of media manipulation and lies. Here is a graph of American support for legal recognition of gay marriage between the mid-90s and 2020 from a Gallup poll:
Image

Do you really believe that people, after centuries of holding a certain viewpoint (no gay marriage) suddenly revolutionized their thinking in the space of 20 odd years under no influence from any prime mover? Culture has as much, perhaps more, inertia as any object. It doesn't move until something comes along and moves it. The decision was made by elites to sanction gay marriage and the message was foisted on the masses from the top down. The idea that now you want to clothe the dictates of the elite in the mantle of popular support is laughable. Both parties, every single major corporation, all media outlets, etc. tell people what to think and the people lap it up.

nafod wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:05 pm
When the government is ruled by minority opinion, then the majority feel like the government works for someone else, and will seek redress otherways. The right's minority rule is a problem.
Wrong. The people don't mind if a minority rule provided they believe that the minority rule fairly and in their interest. That's the way it has been since we were hunter-gatherers.
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Re: The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by nafod » Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:41 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:28 pm
The people don't mind if a minority rule provided they believe that the minority rule fairly and in their interest.
There's the thing. They no longer believe that, with the right confirming it daily.

Which media elites undermined slavery? Gained women's right to vote?
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Re: The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by Fat Cat » Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:26 pm

nafod wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:41 pm
Fat Cat wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:28 pm
The people don't mind if a minority rule provided they believe that the minority rule fairly and in their interest.
There's the thing. They no longer believe that, with the right confirming it daily.

Which media elites undermined slavery? Gained women's right to vote?
Abolitionism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Liberator_(newspaper)

Women's Suffrage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woman%27s_Journal
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Re: The Social Dilemma on Netflix

Post by nafod » Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:31 pm

Another conservative stalwart on the ramparts against gay weirdness.

Taking a wide stance on the isue.
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