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Forums › Free Speech › Employer Vaccine Mandates
The VHA just put out a vaccination mandate for its health care workers, Biden is considering one for all federal workers, health care organizations and municipalities are implementing and considering the same. Your thoughts?
The Mayo Clinic announced earlier this week that they are doing the same.
I am a believer that the vaccine works, that it reduces the chances of contracting the virus, and if you do get infected it reduces the severity of the symptoms. I have had COVID and it sucked. My job requires me to interact with people all across Asia on a daily basis and I can tell you the delta variant is killing way more people in that part of the world than most people in the US realize. Getting vaccinated is the right thing … but in the US you can’t force people to do the right thing. Our constitution and bill of rights allow for people to make stupid choices. I don’t see how requiring employees to be vaccinated will hold up in court. I can possibly see it as something that could be used as a condition of employment for new employees, but I don’t think it will hold up to legal scrutiny to require those who already are working to then have to get vaccinated or be fired.
The Mayo Clinic announced earlier this week that they are doing the same. I am a believer that the vaccine works, that it reduces the chances of contracting the virus, and if you do get infected it reduces the severity of the symptoms. I have had COVID and it sucked. My job requires me to interact with people all across Asia on a daily basis and I can tell you the delta variant is killing way more people in that part of the world than most people in the US realize. Getting vaccinated is the right thing … but in the US you can’t force people to do the right thing. Our constitution and bill of rights allow for people to make stupid choices. I don’t see how requiring employees to be vaccinated will hold up in court. I can possibly see it as something that could be used as a condition of employment for new employees, but I don’t think it will hold up to legal scrutiny to require those who already are working to then have to get vaccinated or be fired.
Pretty much agree with everything you say here. I accept that vaccines, in general, work and I have taken the Pfizer vaccine, albeit with reservations. That said, I do not see much legal basis for mandating vaccination. People are allowed to eat themselves into obesity and diabetes, drink themselves into cirrhosis, and smoke themselves into emphysema. Let people make choices for themselves.
Disney just made it mandatory for all on site workers. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/disney-makes-vaccination-mandatory-on-site-us-employees-2021-07-30/
Houston Methodist was the first to mandate that its employees be fully vaccinated by a June 7 deadline. This led to 24,947 vaccinated employees, 285 with a medical or religious exemption, 332 granted deferrals for pregnancy or other reasons and 153 terminations or voluntary resignations.
My employer is starting down an interesting path … They are saying no one can come into our facility that can not prove they have been fully vaccinated. They also said that they want everyone to return to in-person work by the end of September. The inevitable conclusion is that they won’t have to fire employees. They will just make the rules such that unvaccinated employees will not be able to show up for work as required. According to HR rules this results in voluntary termination. Essentially the employees are not fired, they quit.
I get the feeling this will become the new norm.
t a vaccination mandate for its health care workers, Biden is considering one for all federal workers, health care organizations and municipalities are implementing and considering the
Vaccinations are required to attend schools. Requiring it at employment places after this many American deaths is not going to be a constitutional problem so much as a conservative talkshow hissy fit one.
Our constitution and bill of rights allow for people to make stupid choices. I don’t see how requiring employees to be vaccinated will hold up in court.
The idea that people have a right to be dangerous assholes despite that behavior potentially killing another hundred thousand Americans is not really a historic view of liberty, it’s the modern “I can do whatever I want including fucking you up” view of freedom. We’ve drafted people to go fight in wars (and vaccinated them while we were at it), which is massively more invasive, so this isn’t a close call IMO.
The current science seems to show either you get vaccinated or you will eventually get COVID. The idea that I may have to share a workplace with somebody certain to get COVID, while having family members at home who can’t be vaccinated, is dumb.
I agree there will be some very, very noisy objectors to this, but they can go work together somewhere else. As long as they aren’t getting darted with Pfizer guns at Cracker Barrel, squawk away.
I get the sense if we had the Chinese on the way over to fight a war the Patriot Party would be complaining that the draft and national defense is an impingement on muh freedom and rights.
You could say they don’t care about anything but themselves, but this is actually against their own self interest. They don’t care about anything but cultural signaling. I didn’t know there were so many conservative talk show hosts except so many have died of COVID.
The idea that people have a right to be dangerous assholes despite that behavior potentially killing another hundred thousand Americans is not really a historic view of liberty
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” – July 4 1776.
They’re in order, Gramps, but not separable. Read the rest of it, it’s not a peon to “selfishness” but is not a collectivist either.
Mary Mallon spent her final years in Quarantine. She had to dose people with Typhoid several times before she was dragged off to North Brother Island for life. She killed several of them in the process.
In the old days powers were more often reserved to the States. Some of them had mandatory sterilization laws, some where used on people of color. Planned Parenthood began as a Eugenics outfit. Margaret Sanger was not just a racist but an elitist.
People like Mary Mallon had to do harm before they were restrained. Authorities tried to balance Cost/Benefit. They did not adopt the foolish “cost is no object” mindset we’re seeing with the jab. People have died of vaccine complications – they went with the plan and paid for it.
I’ve been told that once a certain level of people are immunized that we get ‘herd immunity’. So that remnant who refuse the jab? They may or may not matter.
As long as they aren’t getting darted with Pfizer guns at Cracker Barrel, squawk away.
You should be saving your breath for the African Americans who have refused to take the jab. I posted something about Jesse Jackson trying to encourage more of them to get the jab. NBC admitted in the article about Jesse that African Americans are taking the jab less often than whites. I posted it here. You can read it or not, but there it is.
Maybe the history of the Tuskegee Men’s Syphilis “study”, some of the Medical Experimentation being done in urban hospitals and the use of men of color as organ donors is causing…. skepticism about the jab? I worked in an urban dialysis clinic. I heard some stories about organ donation and funky shit going down in hospitals. Even if it’s false? People believed it.
I still remember when Governor Casey got his brand new Liver. The decedent was a man of color in Monessen who was beaten to death. William Michael Lucas. Nary a scratch below the neck. That liver was ready to cure Gov Casey’s amyloidosis. He also got a heart. In 24 hours.
Rather than race bait, maybe you need to evangelize in the Hood, Gramps? Explain to them why they need to get the jab. Overcome their worries and fears of being experimented on medically.
How about it?
Nothing says confidence in vaccines like throwing a shit fit over anyone who doesn’t want one.
What is your confidence level in the available vaccines?
So Gene, you for or against mandating the vaccine in school?
Covid, that is. Not Measles or Diptheria or a bunch that are already mandated.
What are the Cost/Benefits? In the UK one in 500,000 children have died from Covid 19. How many children have been struck down with blood clotting problems from vaccines? I don’t know. The J&J jab is not recommended for women under 50, does this include menstruating girls up to 18 years of age?
“However, women younger than 50 years old especially should be aware of the rare but increased risk of this adverse event and that there are other COVID-19 vaccine options available for which this risk has not been seen.” cdcDOTgov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/JJUpdate.html
We normally vaccine to protect the person being vaccinated, not “society”. Diptheria, Pertussis, Tetanus, Hep B and the like are known killers. I have had all of these vaccines.
Covid doesn’t seem to kill many school kids but has killed a lot of older people. Many of our Covid 19 dead in PA were residents of rest homes and nursing homes. Maybe they need the jab more than kids do?
So Gene, you for or against mandating the vaccine in school? Covid, that is. Not Measles or Diptheria or a bunch that are already mandated.
I”m not a Physician or a professional Statistician. I do not trust the honesty of people on both sides of the debate. The Gardasil fiasco created the modern anti-vaxxer movement. Ridiculous claims like that thimerosol caused autism. People probably get more mercury from their tooth fillings than from vaccines.
The Gardasil vaccine only targets some forms HPV. Some parents felt that it encouraged sexual promiscuity. They resented that the State took away their power to raise their children as they saw fit. When Texas mandated all school kids get Gardasil people were outraged, more so when reports of bad reactions surfaced.
I want to know why we have to get vaccinated for the sake of others. A vaccine is supposed to protect the person getting it. If it works then what is the worry?
If vaccines have limits why doesn’t everyone get routine boosters of TDAP, Hep B and so on? Hep B kills a lot of people around the world, more than Covid. Same with Pertussis, Diptheria and Tetanus. These imperfect vaccines protect against air borne and blood borne diseases too. Why don’t we have this same push for these known killers.
No vaccine is supposed to be perfect. Vaccines are medicine. Medicines have side effects. In the case of Soviet researcher Ken Alibek he lost his sense of smell and is plagued with auto immune disorders.
You have to pick and chose what needs to be given to people. It’s not a blanket solution.
What of natural immunity? How many of us have had Covid 19? I had it, my Physician is certain of it absent testing. He claims that some of the tests are nonsense.
When, Nafod, does this campaign become a Profit$ center for Big Pharma? I don’t know.
I don’t think that you know either.
Jesus, man.
Gene, do you like French Fries?
Do I? Sure they taste good, but I mistrust any mis-classification of a an adjective into a noun. Why call them “fries,” when they are fried potatoes? Must that be the the name? Leaving aside the francophile description, and understanding that fried julienned potatoes doesn’t have the same ring, this distortion of language smacks of an Orwellian dystopia which, regardless of the enjoyableness of the product, must be considered.
Do you like that product? What do you call it? I don’t think you’ve thought about this as much as you think you have. And once the GMO products get involved, how can you really call it anything?
Jesus, man.
Gene, do you like French Fries?
Do I? Sure they taste good, but I mistrust any mis-classification of a an adjective into a noun. Why call them “fries,” when they are fried potatoes? Must that be the the name? Leaving aside the francophile description, and understanding that fried julienned potatoes doesn’t have the same ring, this distortion of language smacks of an Orwellian dystopia which, regardless of the enjoyableness of the product, must be considered. Do you like that product? What do you call it? I don’t think you’ve thought about this as much as you think you have. And once the GMO products get involved, how can you really call it anything?
Shit, Spells, that’s a surprisingly cogent response….
At the end of the day, we’ve had vaccine mandates for a long time (ever put a kid in school?). This one’s fine, particularly now that it’s fully approved (don’t know why that took so long…) but now you anti-vaxxer’s are like Jenny McCarthy, only without great boobs. You’re just the fucking idiots that are preventing us from wiping out a dangerous illness. And why? Oh yeah. Because it’s become hip to love the vaccine if you’re a brain-dead, liberty-hating, democrat and un-hip to take the vaccine if you’re a cowering republican. Something that shouldn’t be even remotely partisan has become a defining action. I guess it takes three actively-firing neurons to see through it…
-stick
Jesus, man.
Gene, do you like French Fries?
It’s not a simple answer, Spells. Why do you insist upon one?
“At the end of the day, we’ve had vaccine mandates for a long time (ever put a kid in school?). This one’s fine, particularly now that it’s fully approved (don’t know why that took so long…) but now you anti-vaxxer’s are like Jenny McCarthy, only without great boobs. You’re just the fucking idiots that are preventing us from wiping out a dangerous illness. And why? Oh yeah. Because it’s become hip to love the vaccine if you’re a brain-dead, liberty-hating, democrat and un-hip to take the vaccine if you’re a cowering republican. Something that shouldn’t be even remotely partisan has become a defining action. I guess it takes three actively-firing neurons to see through it… “-stick
I was vaccinated for Covid, Rubella, Hep B, Hep A, Measles, Smallpox, Polio, the TDAP, and had a Tetanus booster a while back. I tried to get a smallpox booster but nobody can get them right now.
It’s wonderful to virtue signal about your love of public health. I hope that it is working out for you.
Covid does not affect children very much. In the UK it was one child in 500,000 Covid deaths. That’s a very small number of children threatened by Covid.
We do not normally vaccinate to protect other people. We vaccinate to protect the person getting vaccinated. If you vaccinate the vulnerable people then they should be protected. We took a vaccine not working for everyone in stride.
I took the Hep B series because I worked with blood borne diseases. I was required to do so. I was never required to get a flu shot. Flu is also lethal but Hep B was an occupational hazard for me.
I’m against “Cost is no object” thinking. I’m against corporate welfare. I’m against communitarian nonsense.
Why do I need, or did need, to get a Covid jab to work in an office?
Some people in this thread have a real problem with authority. They like to wield authority wantonly. They believe that they’re right, everyone else is wrong and that we all have to go along.
They believe in their priest-scientists like Anthony Fauci or Jim Hansen. Those who doubt or “resist” are reprobates. We need a brisk response. We must solve the problem.
Sad that some of you have forgotten how to lead, motivate or inspire change. I think some of you think that you’re smarter than the rest of us.
In a few years some goatfucker’s gonna be really disappointed to find that one of his 72 virgins is @.
I have had the stones to maintain a keto diet for eight years. Still adjusting it, perfecting it and living it. Still have forty points lower cholesterol than when I started. I’m still forty three pounds lighter than when I began in 2013. The average American gains 104 percent of their weight back within a year after dieting.
My last blood pressure was 120/72. What’s your blood pressure, Turd? Are you taking blood pressure pills? I’m not.
I still get hard-ons in the morning when I wake up. I’ll be sixty next year. How many late fifty year olds get morning wood, Turd? Some. Others in my age range would be emasculated if it weren’t for Cialis or Viagra. No, it’s not TMI, it’s a useful indicator that I am doing something right. Before I started this rodeo I was having ED because of the damn blood pressure pills. No more ED and no more pills.
I got something to take pride in. I’m moving forward. What are you doing, besides pissing time away biting my ankles?
Training Journals Post your training journals here if you like.
Nothing says confidence in vaccines like throwing a shit fit over anyone who doesn’t want one.
What is your confidence level in the available vaccines?
What does my confidence have to do with anything?
If I have low confidence, then I really don’t care who gets one, because this is endemic now and focused mitigation should have been the plan all along. Drs. Jay Battacharya, Martin Kulldorf, Sunetra Gupta and others signing on to the Great Barrington Declaration argued this over a year ago.
If I have high confidence, then I also don’t care, because I’m convinced that everyone who wants to be protected will be, and anyone who wants to pursue natural immunity will. Survival rate for 30-49 is something like 99.97%. Slightly less as you climb the next age ladder to 60, 65+ etc. until a significant increase in mortality at 70+.
There is a one-thousand fold, give or take, increase in mortality for those over 70 as there is for those under. 5.9 out of 100,000 under 35 are hospitalized with Covid. No idea how many comorbidities play a role in those, as plenty of under 35’s are immunocompromised. Regardless, for the young, this is statistically insignificant, as upper respiratory illnesses kill every year, from coronaviruses, rhinoviruses, influenza etc.
I had the one shot, J&J vax, my girlfriend just got her first Pfizer. I won’t be getting a booster.
I know it’s different everywhere, but we’re getting 125 cases per day in my county of 390k people, 211 total in hospital *with* covid.
Our ICU burden, for lack of a better word, is at 45. Several small hospitals are at or near ICU capacity with like 6 or 7 beds available, but we’re running at ~80% of total ICU capacity for all causes in county.
For those of us who are young (ish) and healthy, this is within the envelope of a bad flu season for hospitalizations and deaths.
Focused mitigation, a la The Great Barrington Declaration, is the way for the old, infirm and immunocompromised. If you help to care for people like this, you should probably take extra precautions. Everyone else should be losing weight, getting outside more, and getting on with their lives.
Something like 3-5% of all covid related deaths are under 60. 3% or fewer are under 50. That doesn’t even account for diabetics, obesity, and immunocompromised people. It’s only for with covid, not from covid with no known underlying conditions.
I don’t have kids of my own, but it is unconscionable to me that older, less healthy people think the young should give up time in their youth.
Martin Kuldorf, one of the authors of the GBD, just advised for the old and weak to get vaccinated or boosted, avoid crowded indoor gatherings, and to spend more time outside both for health and risk avoidance.
One of my personal training clients serves on a fund-raising board for a local hospital system. She’s conservative, and vaccinated, and today mentioned there’s a large nurse shortage (and bidding war for them), due to systemic burn-out and loss of empathy. She says they are tired of fighting Covid in the unvaccinated.
This sentiment was echoed by a nurse I met the other day while surfing. He was outraged at the waste of resources (beds, protective gear, etc.) on the unvaccinated and angry that non-Covid patients were getting their surgeries bumped to treat the un-vaxxed.
This the same healthcare system laying off scores of nurses and other staff for not wanting a vaccine that had never been used in humans and now may require boosters ever 6-8 months, or maybe won’t?
I mean, there may be a shortage, but most of this country didn’t experience anything like what New England went through, which was admittedly difficult, but New York still never made use of the ventilators that were sent to them. Nor did they use the field hospitals and only one non-covid patient went to the naval hospital ship that was sent to them.
These same healthcare workers found plenty of time to do elaborately choreographed videos for tiktok and instagram, but they’re complaining now?
I don’t work in health-care, merely relaying two local people’s experience.
Maybe some people here are nurses and doctors that have been treating Covid patients, and they can personally relate how it is in terms of difficulty.
I do feel empathy, assuming it is in fact a shitty, heart-breaking job, for the people stuck treating a disease that the victims are electing not to prevent via free medicine.
2) low pay
ICU docs and nurses do pretty well. It’s not anesthesiology money, but I’ve never heard it described as low.
Here we go.
Nurses and physicians are actually quitting at unprecedented rates due to
1) overwork
2) low pay
3) contraints upon their judgement on how to treat patientsMeanwhile, hospital, insurance and pharm execs are raking in money like there is no tomorrow.
In what universe is a registered nurse receiving low pay? The scale for registered nurses on Glassdoor is between $64k and $150k per year. Even on the low side, it’s more than the average salary in this country. It’s more than double the average salary across the nation. They’re unionized nearly universally and receive overtime, often have really good healthcare benefits, and retirement options. They can still be overstressed and over burdened, but low pay isn’t a valid reason. LVNs make less, obviously.
Average physician salary on Salary.com is $160k to 260k per year, which is lower on the high end than ziprecruiter and higher on the low end. So many are limited on the time they can spend with patients (like 15 minutes or less) and have so much follow up work through email and phone to do that it’s a lot. Technology, like telehealth has apparently helped, but it’s still a big job. I used to hate dealing with doctors when I worked in a pharmacy, by the way. Easily the worst people to talk to other than Indians. Smet is an outlier.
Still though, if you’re not satisfied with your pay when making at least 5x the national average, I have a hard time feeling bad for you. It’s a big job that takes a lot of training, but it comes with the potential to earn a salary that many would only dream of.
Finally, re: nurses being fed up. In late June, ~1 out of 4 healthcare workers hadn’t received an injection of any sort. No J&J, no mRNA… nothing. You can’t blame John and Jane Doe for not wanting to get jabbed when a not insignificant number of healthcare workers have been hesitant or outright refused the injections.
And because I know I come off like a total Covid truther and anti-vaxxer, I believe that if you’re at risk, you should get jabbed and still take precautions. If you are around high risk people, you should at least get jabbed.
Finally, healthy people aren’t the ones dying in large numbers. Older people (sucks, but aging is a privilege and that privilege comes with downsides), the immunocompromised and generally fat and unhealthy people are. Fully 42% of this country was obese by 2017/2018. That level of unhealthiness comes at a significant cost to healthcare systems in good times, let alone a novel coronavirus that targets the old, infirm and those with obesity related conditions.
The trouble is that vaccines don’t seem to be as useful as they were thought to be. There is more and more data coming up that vaccinated transmit covid as successfully as the vaccinated, which makes the argument for the communal responsibility somewhat irrelevant.
There is also mistrust in the corporate ethics. In 2009 Pfizer paid $2.3 bln in settlements for “mispromoting medicines and for paying kickbacks to compliant doctors”: Pfizer drug breach ends in biggest US crime fine. That’s for the painkiller Bextra (a drug similar to the infamous Vioxx), the drug with considerably smaller prescription base than the vaccine. Given the fact that main safety data comes out of the trials conducted by the manufacturers of the vaccines makes it more understandable why folks are somewhat suspicious that pharma companies might not have their best interests at heart.
Notwithstanding that the technology used in the vaccines is new. MRNA vaccines have never been used in humans before, so naturally there is some fear. Top it up with the mind blowing censorship on every social and mainstream media, and the reluctance of some groups becomes very understandable.
The trouble is that vaccines don’t seem to be as useful as they were thought to be
Kooky talk.
MRNA vaccines have never been used in humans before, so naturally there is some fear.
There are non-MRNA vaccines for COVID.
CORRECTION: In a few years….. blah, blah, blah.
Training Journals Post your training journals here if you like.
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