Let's talk ammo.
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Topic author - Starship Trooper
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Let's talk ammo.
Post by Batboy2/75 »
Save the "This caliber is better than that caliber" arguments for another time.
What ammo do you load up with when you carry for these scenarios:
Handgun -self defense (i.e. killing two legged vermin)
Rifle -self defense
Handgun hunting (either for taking game or for predator protection)
Rifle Hunting
Caliber, brand, load data and why you picked it.
What ammo do you load up with when you carry for these scenarios:
Handgun -self defense (i.e. killing two legged vermin)
Rifle -self defense
Handgun hunting (either for taking game or for predator protection)
Rifle Hunting
Caliber, brand, load data and why you picked it.
Arms are the only true badge of liberty. The possession of arms is the distinction of the free man from the slave.
I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.
I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.
Batboy2/75
Re: Let's talk ammo.
In a handgun for self defense I carry Federal HST in either 124g +p for 9mm or 230g for 45.
"The biggest problems that we’re facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all."
Pinky
Mr Clean
Re: Let's talk ammo.
I carry rarely, but have on occasion.
Corbon 9mm if carrying concealed, in a Browning 9mm, it's also readily available at the house.
I have #4 and 00 buck both in 3" shells and 2 3/4 shells for home self defense. The shotgun in the bedroom has the #4, thinking indoor use only. The other has 00.
I also have a Springfield 1911 .45acp I keep at the house, loaded with Corbon 200gr hp.
I have a Marlin 9mm camp carbine I bought just for the fun of it, but handloaded some 90gr Hornaday XTP in it for ground hogs, it does a job on them, especially at the higher velocity the rifle provides. I have a magazine of 147gr Hornaday XTP's always ready for it if zombies attack.
While not a great urban self defense gun, I have taken my Stainless Ruger Vaquero camping, hunting, backpacking, etc.
I have some Corbon .45LC +p rounds for it, which are quite adequate for 2 legged varmints. Although designed for self defense, they work well on boar through my marlin .45 lever action.
When camping I've loaded the revolver with the Corbon's. When I was out west, I made the first round a shot shell for snakes.
If I was really concerned about bears, and needing to shoot one with the revolver, I'd get some of the hard cast 45LC +p ammo out there.
Interesting article regarding caliber.
FBI 9mm justification training division
Corbon 9mm if carrying concealed, in a Browning 9mm, it's also readily available at the house.
I have #4 and 00 buck both in 3" shells and 2 3/4 shells for home self defense. The shotgun in the bedroom has the #4, thinking indoor use only. The other has 00.
I also have a Springfield 1911 .45acp I keep at the house, loaded with Corbon 200gr hp.
I have a Marlin 9mm camp carbine I bought just for the fun of it, but handloaded some 90gr Hornaday XTP in it for ground hogs, it does a job on them, especially at the higher velocity the rifle provides. I have a magazine of 147gr Hornaday XTP's always ready for it if zombies attack.
While not a great urban self defense gun, I have taken my Stainless Ruger Vaquero camping, hunting, backpacking, etc.
I have some Corbon .45LC +p rounds for it, which are quite adequate for 2 legged varmints. Although designed for self defense, they work well on boar through my marlin .45 lever action.
When camping I've loaded the revolver with the Corbon's. When I was out west, I made the first round a shot shell for snakes.
If I was really concerned about bears, and needing to shoot one with the revolver, I'd get some of the hard cast 45LC +p ammo out there.
Interesting article regarding caliber.
FBI 9mm justification training division
j-cubed
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Topic author - Starship Trooper
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Re: Let's talk ammo.
Post by Batboy2/75 »
Handgun for SD:
Gold Dot 9mm Luger 124 Gr GDHP
Winchester PDX1 9mm +P 124 GR BJHP
Gold Dot .45 ACP 230 Gr GDHP
Gold Dot 380 auto 90 Gr GDHP
Handgun Hunting or predator protection:
Buffalo Bore .45LC +P 325 gr Hard cast LBT
Buffalo Bore 10mm 220 gr Hard Cast LBT
Rifle Self Defense:
Golden Tiger 7.62 x 39 124 gr FMJ
Siver Bear 7.62 x 39 125 gr SP
Hornady 7.62 x 39 SST
Hornady 5.56 x 45 55 gr TAP
Rifle Hunting:
230 gr. mini ball (Black powder)
Silver Bear 7.62 x 39 125 gr SP
Silver Bear 7.62 x 54R 203 gr SP
270 win Varies but something in a 150 gr SP
If you have any questions regarding an ammo and how it performs, the internet is your friend. Do a search on "insert your ammos name" gel test and you'll probably find 1-100 tests with your ammo.
The FBI standard is the round shot through 4 layers of denim into calibrated ballistics gelatin. The rounds should expand or tumble within the first inch or so and penetrate a minimum of 12 inches.
Gold Dot 9mm Luger 124 Gr GDHP
Winchester PDX1 9mm +P 124 GR BJHP
Gold Dot .45 ACP 230 Gr GDHP
Gold Dot 380 auto 90 Gr GDHP
Handgun Hunting or predator protection:
Buffalo Bore .45LC +P 325 gr Hard cast LBT
Buffalo Bore 10mm 220 gr Hard Cast LBT
Rifle Self Defense:
Golden Tiger 7.62 x 39 124 gr FMJ
Siver Bear 7.62 x 39 125 gr SP
Hornady 7.62 x 39 SST
Hornady 5.56 x 45 55 gr TAP
Rifle Hunting:
230 gr. mini ball (Black powder)
Silver Bear 7.62 x 39 125 gr SP
Silver Bear 7.62 x 54R 203 gr SP
270 win Varies but something in a 150 gr SP
If you have any questions regarding an ammo and how it performs, the internet is your friend. Do a search on "insert your ammos name" gel test and you'll probably find 1-100 tests with your ammo.
The FBI standard is the round shot through 4 layers of denim into calibrated ballistics gelatin. The rounds should expand or tumble within the first inch or so and penetrate a minimum of 12 inches.
Arms are the only true badge of liberty. The possession of arms is the distinction of the free man from the slave.
I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.
I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.
Batboy2/75
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Re: Let's talk ammo.
Post by Protobuilder »
The "pants" thread is now the second-worst of the week.
WildGorillaMan wrote:Enthusiasm combined with no skill whatsoever can sometimes carry the day.
Protobuilder
Re: Let's talk ammo.
.38 - Remington 158 gr. +P LSWCHP - This is my carry handgun.
.40 - Winchester Black Talon JHP & some other JHP's - This is my "house gun."
5.56 & 7.62 - mixed bag
.40 - Winchester Black Talon JHP & some other JHP's - This is my "house gun."
5.56 & 7.62 - mixed bag
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
W.B. Yeats
Are full of passionate intensity.
W.B. Yeats
johno
Re: Let's talk ammo.
For ammo I hope to never have to use for it's engineered purpose:
.45ACP = Federal Premium Law Enforcement 230grain HST
9mm Luger = Federal Premium Law Enforcement 147grain HST
357 Magnum = Corbon 125grain JHP
12 Gauge = Federal Classic Buckshot 00 Buck, Nine 8.38 balls of fun!
That's what I have right now, I've also loaded with Gold Dot in .45ACP and 9mm and used to buy Hydra Shck ammo as well. With a .45ACP, I would not feel under armed with 230grain FMJ ball and have loaded extra mags with ball. A lead wadcutter for .357mag is in the same boat, I can live with it.
I would hate to have to fight with ball in a 9mm.
I would not want to get shot with any of it.
.45ACP = Federal Premium Law Enforcement 230grain HST
9mm Luger = Federal Premium Law Enforcement 147grain HST
357 Magnum = Corbon 125grain JHP
12 Gauge = Federal Classic Buckshot 00 Buck, Nine 8.38 balls of fun!
That's what I have right now, I've also loaded with Gold Dot in .45ACP and 9mm and used to buy Hydra Shck ammo as well. With a .45ACP, I would not feel under armed with 230grain FMJ ball and have loaded extra mags with ball. A lead wadcutter for .357mag is in the same boat, I can live with it.
I would hate to have to fight with ball in a 9mm.
I would not want to get shot with any of it.
"God forbid we tell the savages to go fuck themselves." Batboy
DARTH
Re: Let's talk ammo.
For defensive handgun (.357 Magnum 125 gr FTX Hornaday critical defence) (I picked these rounds because for .357 magnum I found them
very accurate and among the defensive loads the recoil was very controllable while still maintaining a good velocity). Although .357 magnum is a rather accurate
round generally.
For 45 ACP 230 grain Federal hydo-shocks (reason honestly .45 Cal handgun the heavier the better and hydro shocks are pretty reliable but anything 230 grain .45
should work.)
9X18 Mak. (95 Grain FTX Hornaday Critical Defense. ) (Reason making the most of relatively small round more for conceal carry however still a good round
similar to .38 in terminal performance)
Rifle Defensive (zombies)
5.56mm (ASYM 75 grain or Hornady 75 grain) (with cannalure for better chance of fragmentation) Reason both are very accurate with respectable ballistic performance 200 yards and closer
8mm Mauser 196 grain Hornaday vintage match reasons accuracy and power while not a hollow point round even a through and through is going to make for a bad day. Of course for a proper hunting round the Nosler 180 grain ballistic tips are very good too with a good speed for 8mm though personaly for 8mm I tend towards heavier rounds to preserve the advantages of the round.
All this being based on my experience and opinions having shot these rounds and how my luck has been with said rounds.
very accurate and among the defensive loads the recoil was very controllable while still maintaining a good velocity). Although .357 magnum is a rather accurate
round generally.
For 45 ACP 230 grain Federal hydo-shocks (reason honestly .45 Cal handgun the heavier the better and hydro shocks are pretty reliable but anything 230 grain .45
should work.)
9X18 Mak. (95 Grain FTX Hornaday Critical Defense. ) (Reason making the most of relatively small round more for conceal carry however still a good round
similar to .38 in terminal performance)
Rifle Defensive (zombies)
5.56mm (ASYM 75 grain or Hornady 75 grain) (with cannalure for better chance of fragmentation) Reason both are very accurate with respectable ballistic performance 200 yards and closer
8mm Mauser 196 grain Hornaday vintage match reasons accuracy and power while not a hollow point round even a through and through is going to make for a bad day. Of course for a proper hunting round the Nosler 180 grain ballistic tips are very good too with a good speed for 8mm though personaly for 8mm I tend towards heavier rounds to preserve the advantages of the round.
All this being based on my experience and opinions having shot these rounds and how my luck has been with said rounds.
Sweat saves blood.
Erwin Rommel
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil
is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke
One man who truly believes in what he is doing is worth any ten men who do not.
Erwin Rommel
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil
is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke
One man who truly believes in what he is doing is worth any ten men who do not.
IronDog
Re: Let's talk ammo.
This made me feel better about the cheapo ammo I've been buying:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVQNJoo08a0[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVQNJoo08a0[/youtube]
Boris
Re: Let's talk ammo.
1. I don't know how many autopsies I've reviewed that involved death by handgun. But it's a lot.
2. I have never, repeat, NEVER, seen a handgun projectile that expanded in human tissues. Neither have the Medical Examiners that I asked about it.
3. Do with that information what you will.
2. I have never, repeat, NEVER, seen a handgun projectile that expanded in human tissues. Neither have the Medical Examiners that I asked about it.
3. Do with that information what you will.
davidc
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Topic author - Starship Trooper
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Re: Let's talk ammo.
Post by Batboy2/75 »
davidc wrote:1. I don't know how many autopsies I've reviewed that involved death by handgun. But it's a lot.
2. I have never, repeat, NEVER, seen a handgun projectile that expanded in human tissues. Neither have the Medical Examiners that I asked about it.
3. Do with that information what you will.
1) The FBI and scientist that study not just lab results, but the autopsies of Law enforcement shootings disagree. the FBI has studied this topic in detail since the 1980s
2) Along with this guy-> Doctor Gary Roberts, who has studied the topic in depth in a military, law enforcement and lab setting.
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_D ... /index.htm
3) Your opinion is worthless; see below.
Speer Gold Dot recover from an actual Autopsy
More bullets recovered from autopsies. Notice the bullet types that didn't expand? FMJ sucks donkey dick.
Quality modern bonded JHP rounds work and work very well.
Last edited by Batboy2/75 on Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Arms are the only true badge of liberty. The possession of arms is the distinction of the free man from the slave.
I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.
I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.
Batboy2/75
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Topic author - Starship Trooper
- Posts: 7670
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:58 am
- Location: Pumping Elizebeth Shue's Ass!
Re: Let's talk ammo.
Post by Batboy2/75 »
These are the most important factors (in order of importance) in killing someone with a handgun
1-Shot placement -Center mass in the chest, spinal cord or head. Since the chest is the largest area, people are trained to shoot center mass. On a side note; 75% of all gun shot wounds are to extremities and 85% of people survive being shot.
2-Bullet penetration- minimum 12 inches through denim in ballistics tests.
3-Bullet expansion- at least by 120% of original bullet diameter in ballistics tests. Plus, you want a bonded bullet, so that the Jacket doesn't separate. The expanded pedal of the JHP should act like a saw as it cuts through flesh.
4-Bullet weight retention- more the better.
1-Shot placement -Center mass in the chest, spinal cord or head. Since the chest is the largest area, people are trained to shoot center mass. On a side note; 75% of all gun shot wounds are to extremities and 85% of people survive being shot.
2-Bullet penetration- minimum 12 inches through denim in ballistics tests.
3-Bullet expansion- at least by 120% of original bullet diameter in ballistics tests. Plus, you want a bonded bullet, so that the Jacket doesn't separate. The expanded pedal of the JHP should act like a saw as it cuts through flesh.
4-Bullet weight retention- more the better.
Arms are the only true badge of liberty. The possession of arms is the distinction of the free man from the slave.
I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.
I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.
Batboy2/75
Re: Let's talk ammo.
From my experience, no handgun round is a "stopper," although some are better than others.
One of my more memorable calls was when a drug deal went bad, and a guy got shot through the chest. Even though his aorta/heart was bleeding out, he ran 30+ yards, and fought us while we tried to put him on a backboard, 5+ minutes after the shooting. He died in the ER.
So this fatal shot was not a "Stopper."
My takeaway: shoot as long as the attacker is upright & facing you and be prepared to beat him to death with your empty gun.*
*So much for the "excessive force" in the Ferguson shooting, where the officer shot Brown 6 times, 4 in the arm, 2 in the head.
One of my more memorable calls was when a drug deal went bad, and a guy got shot through the chest. Even though his aorta/heart was bleeding out, he ran 30+ yards, and fought us while we tried to put him on a backboard, 5+ minutes after the shooting. He died in the ER.
So this fatal shot was not a "Stopper."
My takeaway: shoot as long as the attacker is upright & facing you and be prepared to beat him to death with your empty gun.*
*So much for the "excessive force" in the Ferguson shooting, where the officer shot Brown 6 times, 4 in the arm, 2 in the head.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
W.B. Yeats
Are full of passionate intensity.
W.B. Yeats
johno
Re: Let's talk ammo.
He obviously wasn't shot with a (insert legendary handgun caliber here). If he had been, the impact would have knocked him backwards several feet, caused him to do a backflip, and broken every bone in his upper body.johno wrote:One of my more memorable calls was when a drug deal went bad, and a guy got shot through the chest. Even though his aorta/heart was bleeding out, he ran 30+ yards, and fought us while we tried to put him on a backboard, 5+ minutes after the shooting. He died in the ER.
So this fatal shot was not a "Stopper."
"The biggest problems that we’re facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all."
Pinky
Re: Let's talk ammo.
Believe what you want. I actually deal with this topic on a regular basis. Not from my keyboard, but in real life.Batboy2/75 wrote:davidc wrote:1. I don't know how many autopsies I've reviewed that involved death by handgun. But it's a lot.
2. I have never, repeat, NEVER, seen a handgun projectile that expanded in human tissues. Neither have the Medical Examiners that I asked about it.
3. Do with that information what you will.
1) The FBI and scientist that study not just lab results, but the autopsies of Law enforcement shootings disagree. the FBI has studied this topic in detail since the 1980s
2) Along with this guy-> Doctor Gary Roberts, who has studied the topic in depth in a military, law enforcement and lab setting.
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_D ... /index.htm
3) Your opinion is worthless; see below.
Speer Gold Dot recover from an actual Autopsy
More bullets recovered from autopsies. Notice the bullet types that didn't expand? FMJ sucks donkey dick.
Quality modern bonded JHP rounds work and work very well.
davidc
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Topic author - Starship Trooper
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- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:58 am
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Re: Let's talk ammo.
Post by Batboy2/75 »
Post your evidence. Your opinion is worth squat without it.
Until proven otherwise, I'll go with the FBI and those that actually study the topic.
Until proven otherwise, I'll go with the FBI and those that actually study the topic.
Arms are the only true badge of liberty. The possession of arms is the distinction of the free man from the slave.
I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.
I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.
Batboy2/75
Re: Let's talk ammo.
Self defense - Speer gold dot .40 165 grainBatboy2/75 wrote:Save the "This caliber is better than that caliber" arguments for another time.
What ammo do you load up with when you carry for these scenarios:
Handgun -self defense (i.e. killing two legged vermin)
Rifle -self defense
Handgun hunting (either for taking game or for predator protection)
Rifle Hunting
Caliber, brand, load data and why you picked it.
Why - Issued
Technical Information
Muzzle Velocity: 1150 fps
Muzzle Energy: 484 ft/lb
Rifle - Hornady TAP 5.56
Why - Issued
Handgun hunting - .44 mag in whatever Doc Roberts recommends or I have on hand.
Why - Only carry it for protection in bear country, haven't hunted with it.
Rifle Hunting - .308 150 grain core-lokt Remington Soft Point
Why - It's what I've got and practice ammo was plentiful and free for a long time. The Remington was because it was plentiful in my old area, and that particular round shot very true to my Model 70, was cheap, and has worked on deer (mule and whitey) and pronghorn.
Technical Information
Caliber: 308 Winchester
Bullet Weight: 150 Grains
Bullet Style: Core-Lokt Pointed Soft Point
Case Type: Brass
Ballistics Information:
Muzzle Velocity: 2820 fps
Muzzle Energy: 2648 ft. lbs.
emac437