Making po po less militirized

[Turdacious]

Majority white voters love to see rioters being put down

The racial composition of Ferguson has shifted since 1990, however. In 1990, residents of Ferguson who were identified in the U.S. Census as White comprised 73.8% of the total, while those identified as Black made up 25.1%.[21] (The remainder, 1.1%, identified with other racial categories.) In the 2000 census, 44.7% were White and 52.4% were African American. In the 2010 census, 29.3% were White and 67.4% were African American.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson,_Missouri
With this trend, there's probably something going on that locals have known about for a while. The parts of suburban St. Louis I've been to on brief visits have all been lily white and middle class, I kind of assumed that they all were.

[johno]

Remember this when the boys and girls in blue demand a pay raise etc. Most will retire with full health benefits and the public will end up picking up the tab for these fat fucks.

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2014/08/14/fbi- ... verweight/

It's worse with firemen. There's a waiting list years long to get a fireman's gig around here, yet pay/benefits skyrocket. It's insane.

Want to have some fun? Go on any forum that swings from the nuts of LEO and fire fighters and share that bit of wisdom. I've been banned from a number of forums for sharing your point.

I wish that were true here. We have seen a decline in pay and benefits here.

Pay, pension, and other benefits vary greatly from state-to-state and town-to-town. So does pension plan solvency - some Big City department's pensions are based on nothing but a promise, like your Social Security. Others are solvent and well-funded.

[dead man walking]

Majority white voters love to see rioters being put down

The racial composition of Ferguson has shifted since 1990, however. In 1990, residents of Ferguson who were identified in the U.S. Census as White comprised 73.8% of the total, while those identified as Black made up 25.1%.[21] (The remainder, 1.1%, identified with other racial categories.) In the 2000 census, 44.7% were White and 52.4% were African American. In the 2010 census, 29.3% were White and 67.4% were African American.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson,_Missouri
With this trend, there's probably something going on that locals have known about for a while. The parts of suburban St. Louis I've been to on brief visits have all been lily white and middle class, I kind of assumed that they all were.

with st louis bordered by the river on the east, the only direction for population to spread is west into those white suburbs. no one chooses to move across the river to grim east st louis (illinios). ferguson is pretty close in. it's a little north of university city, which was a mixed-race suburb when i lived there briefly in the late 60s.

[Batboy2/75]

Each Sate establish a LEO version of the UCMJ. Being an LEO entails a lot of power- place officers under a legal system like the UCMJ.

A separate legal system outside of the civilian one? That's the opposite of what we'd want. If needed, right some laws into the state and local codes. We want more integration, not less.

Post-Iraq and Afghanistan, the military has been shedding hardware like crazy. Leaving billions of dollars of stuff overseas, and giving away billions of dollars of arms and vehicles to law enforcement. Hard to say "no" to free stuff, so police folks end up with MRAPs and armor what-not. Useful kit, so its not hard to understand why they have it. But then it ends up being a hammer looking for a nail.

It's all about leadership and community control of the police force.

No, it's about limiting the rights of the LEO. If you have access to a disproportionate level of power, then we should place you under a legal system where we can fry your ass. There are a lot of people in Leavenworth Ks serving time in military prison that wouldn't be there if they had be tried in a civilian court. The UCMJ is a type of discipline imposed by Congress on the military as a control mechanism. IMO- we need to extend that to LEO that have the power to ruin peoples lives or just end their lives.

Also, at one time (Old west) many LEO were placed under the UCMJ by state Governors. The Texas Rangers and the Arizona Ranger were two such organizations.

[Grandpa's Spells]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson,_Missouri
With this trend, there's probably something going on that locals have known about for a while. The parts of suburban St. Louis I've been to on brief visits have all been lily white and middle class, I kind of assumed that they all were.

Don't know how things have changed in the last 15 years, but when I lived there St. Louis was unbelievably racially tense. There was a lot of casual "nigger" talk from well-off white folks, and I got pulled over a few times at night in my 10 year old Ford Escort only to be immediately let go once the cop realized it was a white guy under the baseball cap. I didn't put it together until a local explained it to me.

There's a lot of animus both directions and a history of white flight. It would not be a good place to be black in the late 90's, and it doesn't look like much has changed seeing some StL friends' Facebook feeds.

[johno]

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08 ... -shooting/

Apparently, the deceased robbed a Quicky Mart that night.

It will be interesting to see what other facts come to light.
After Tawanna Brawley, Duke Lacrosse, Baby Trayvon, et al., I am skeptical whether the media gets it right in most of these racially charged incidents.

[Grandpa's Spells]

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08 ... -shooting/

Apparently, the deceased robbed a Quicky Mart that night.

It will be interesting to see what other facts come to light.
After Tawanna Brawley, Duke Lacrosse, Baby Trayvon, et al., I am skeptical whether the media gets it right in most of these racially charged incidents.

It wasn't night, it was mid-day. And the penalty for stealing swisher sweets is not summary execution. Brown not being a perfect little angel is not the point. If the officer had justifiable reason to shoot him, which at this point would have to be his attacking the officer and going for the gun, great. But there is an ocean of space between what he's alleged to have done and an 18-year-old who attacks a uniformed police officer.

It's suspicious that they release info about the alleged robbery and not the alleged murder.

[Turdacious]

Useful kit, so its not hard to understand why they have it. But then it ends up being a hammer looking for a nail.

Definitely can't disagree with the second part, but the first is hard to argue. MRAPs are designed
for threats that LEOs seldom face, designed for weapons systems that are inappropriate for LEO work, and are too cumbersome and large to maneuver effectively in tight spaces. Law enforcement lacks the repair and maintenance infrastructure and capability to effectively maintain them on a cost effective basis-- they become a money pit that LEO budgets are not designed for.

1116's could conceivably make sense (although I don't think they do), but MRAPs do not.

[Turdacious]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson,_Missouri
With this trend, there's probably something going on that locals have known about for a while. The parts of suburban St. Louis I've been to on brief visits have all been lily white and middle class, I kind of assumed that they all were.

Don't know how things have changed in the last 15 years, but when I lived there St. Louis was unbelievably racially tense. There was a lot of casual "nigger" talk from well-off white folks, and I got pulled over a few times at night in my 10 year old Ford Escort only to be immediately let go once the cop realized it was a white guy under the baseball cap. I didn't put it together until a local explained it to me.

There's a lot of animus both directions and a history of white flight. It would not be a good place to be black in the late 90's, and it doesn't look like much has changed seeing some StL friends' Facebook feeds.

My sense of StL city was similar to what I saw in the brief time I lived in your neck of the woods-- a lot of the 'don't go there ever, that's ok there when it's light out, and these areas are ok' advice from locals. It seemed a little easier to tell in StL because the differences (crumbling buildings) seemed pretty obvious. The effective segregation, at least from my outsider's perspective, was very pronounced. Maybe it's something like what happened with Chicago and some of it's southern suburbs (where Chicago tried to export some of it's problems). Either way, I don't see this ending well for Ferguson-- the tax base (both white and black) is likely in a hurry to GTFO.

[nafod]

Useful kit, so its not hard to understand why they have it. But then it ends up being a hammer looking for a nail.

Definitely can't disagree with the second part, but the first is hard to argue. MRAPs are designed
for threats that LEOs seldom face, designed for weapons systems that are inappropriate for LEO work, and are too cumbersome and large to maneuver effectively in tight spaces. Law enforcement lacks the repair and maintenance infrastructure and capability to effectively maintain them on a cost effective basis-- they become a money pit that LEO budgets are not designed for.

1116's could conceivably make sense (although I don't think they do), but MRAPs do not.

They can serve as shelter from rocks and bullets, have good command & control stuff on the interior, and are all terrain (although not tracked) so they make great rolling command posts along with their intimidating look. They were used in Baghdad plenty, so they work in urban environments. They're free, so just use it until some major expense pops up and then declare success and ship it out to the boneyard. But they should not be in daily use. Just reserved for riots and apocalyptic nonsense.

Along with all the normal policing responsibilities, when we have the big Ebola outbreak, terrorist attack on a mall, dirty bomb explosion, or other similar kinds of fun, it is not going to be the National Guard or US Military first on the scene. It will be the local authorities and they'll be glad they had some capability. Just need to keep it in the garage and hope it never gets used. Maybe special authority required to roll it out on any kind of mission.

[Dan Martin]

Most police departments have either full-time or part-time grant writers and submit grants for everything and anything knowing full-well they won't be approved. Then to their surprise, they get an up-armored vehicle. The police chief isn't going to give it back, that's for sure.

[johno]

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08 ... -shooting/

Apparently, the deceased robbed a Quicky Mart that night.

It will be interesting to see what other facts come to light.
After Tawanna Brawley, Duke Lacrosse, Baby Trayvon, et al., I am skeptical whether the media gets it right in most of these racially charged incidents.

It wasn't night, it was mid-day.

OK, mid-day. It doesn't change my point that the media has a history of getting things wrong or half-right in these incidents.

the penalty for stealing swisher sweets is not summary execution.

There was an execution? That's one possibility.

Brown not being a perfect little angel is not the point.

No, but that's how it started in the media & with the Racial Injustice Machine.*
Similar to the first images of Trayvon. You remember the early photos, and how misleading they were?
AND the doctored/edited versions of the 911 call?

suspicious that they release info about the alleged robbery and not the alleged murder.

Not if the autopsy has not yet been conducted. Or if the investigation is still ongoing, which I assume it is.

IF there is more evidence that justifies the shooting, I expect it to emerge in dribs & drabs, as it did in the Martin case. All the hotheads will have tuned out by then, certain in their belief that The Man murdered a sweet, innocent Child.

I'm fairly confident that the investigation will reveal the facts, and that justice will be done in the courthouse.
And I wouldn't be at all surprised if the situation was greatly different from the first media & mob perception of things.





*

Teachers described Brown as a “gentle giant,” a student who loomed large and didn’t cause trouble. Friends describe him as a quiet person with a wicked sense of humor, one who loved music and had begun to rap. He fought an uphill battle to graduate.
...
Police say Brown tried to take the officer’s gun.

“That doesn’t sound like Michael,” Johnson said. “I know he would never do anything like that. I just don’t believe he’d do anything that would cause this whole situation.”
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crim ... 2d130.html

[Bud Charniga's grape ape]

The chief of the Ferguson PD just reported that the officer who shot Michael Brown did not know that he was a robbery suspect at the time of the shooting. Rather, he was stopped for blocking traffic.

[Grandpa's Spells]

The chief of the Ferguson PD just reported that the officer who shot Michael Brown did not know that he was a robbery suspect at the time of the shooting. Rather, he was stopped for blocking traffic.

The police bungling is the most maddening aspect of this -- why the fuck are they releasing this information about the robbery while pointing out hours later that it had nothing to do with the incident?

[TerryB]

The chief of the Ferguson PD just reported that the officer who shot Michael Brown did not know that he was a robbery suspect at the time of the shooting. Rather, he was stopped for blocking traffic.

WTF??

good grief

[Batboy2/75]

Useful kit, so its not hard to understand why they have it. But then it ends up being a hammer looking for a nail.

Definitely can't disagree with the second part, but the first is hard to argue. MRAPs are designed
for threats that LEOs seldom face, designed for weapons systems that are inappropriate for LEO work, and are too cumbersome and large to maneuver effectively in tight spaces. Law enforcement lacks the repair and maintenance infrastructure and capability to effectively maintain them on a cost effective basis-- they become a money pit that LEO budgets are not designed for.

1116's could conceivably make sense (although I don't think they do), but MRAPs do not.

They can serve as shelter from rocks and bullets, have good command & control stuff on the interior, and are all terrain (although not tracked) so they make great rolling command posts along with their intimidating look. They were used in Baghdad plenty, so they work in urban environments. They're free, so just use it until some major expense pops up and then declare success and ship it out to the boneyard. But they should not be in daily use. Just reserved for riots and apocalyptic nonsense.

Along with all the normal policing responsibilities, when we have the big Ebola outbreak, terrorist attack on a mall, dirty bomb explosion, or other similar kinds of fun, it is not going to be the National Guard or US Military first on the scene. It will be the local authorities and they'll be glad they had some capability. Just need to keep it in the garage and hope it never gets used. Maybe special authority required to roll it out on any kind of mission.

I don't believe it works that way. When it comes to equipment like MRAPs, I believe they are on loan and still remain property of the US Military. I would assume that part of a loan program, is the requirement to maintain the MRAPs.

[Shafpocalypse Now]

A clusterfuck of no small size.

[Stillwater]

[Protobuilder]

The chief of the Ferguson PD just reported that the officer who shot Michael Brown did not know that he was a robbery suspect at the time of the shooting. Rather, he was stopped for blocking traffic.

Brown didn't know that the officer didn't know.

[Protobuilder]

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08 ... -shooting/

Apparently, the deceased robbed a Quicky Mart that night.

It will be interesting to see what other facts come to light.
After Tawanna Brawley, Duke Lacrosse, Baby Trayvon, et al., I am skeptical whether the media gets it right in most of these racially charged incidents.

The other guy in the video says that it was Brown. The family's attn'y says that it was Brown...but these folks aren't convinced...and are going to tear things apart when a no charges are filed.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fYC5JJJNQ4[/youtube]

[Turdacious]

What [Ferguson Police Chief] Jackson could clarify, however, is that there is no dashcam video of the shooting of the unarmed, 18-year-old Brown. The department does not have cameras in its 18 cruisers. They received a Department of Justice grant this year for two dash cams and two officer cameras – but the dash cams have not yet been installed.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post ... ustration/
Almost like it's easier to get funding for MRAPs than dashcams. Amazing.

[dead man walking]

decent background piece on north st. louis, context for what's going on in ferguson

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1191 ... al-tension

[Chris McClinch]

Another good piece from on the ground in Ferguson: http://grantland.com/features/ferguson- ... er-police/

[Grandpa's Spells]

decent background piece on north st. louis, context for what's going on in ferguson

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1191 ... al-tension

There has been a lot of this. 60 Minutes profiled Belleville, IL as "the most racist town in America" something like 20 years ago. They still had off-the-books sundown laws and would just pull over any vehicle with blacks in it. Openly. It was a town of white people who had fled East St. Louis, once blacks started moving in, though not before a fair amount of riots, lynchings, and a few scalpings, IIRC.

I think the articles saying "This could happen anywhere in America" are pretty off the mark. While there was a history of realtors fucking over black homeowners in major cities like Chicago, and white flight happens in lots of places, racial tensions and history in St. Louis are pretty distinct.

[johno]

Soooo...Ferguson was racially oppressive? Why the Black Flight to Ferguson over the past 30 years?