Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

[Kazuya Mishima]

The irony of this thread is a guy with Kaz's mindset is going to do far more good to protect and enhance the quality of life of a hardworking black family than someone like Spells is where he seems to assume there is a systematic racist boogeyman in play who is keeping black people down or treating them unfairly.

Exactly, because the limp wristed lefties of the world cannot bring themselves to call a spade a spade. Every time some bastard n'er-do-well of the "black community" takes a fall as a result of a lifetime of bad decision making that was nurtured in the fertile womb of boorish black behavior and Africans in America apocalyptic culture we just see the excuse machine rolled out. Gee whiz, Q'uantrellius got pulled over for a busted tail light and the cop had probable cause based upon the contact high he got from the vapors rolling out of the Crown Vic windows. When he ran the plate he found that he had pulled over a wanted felon with two aggravated assaults, a drug possession, three delinquent child support garnishments, and 15 unpaid moving violation tickets. When asked to step out of the car to be held accountable he decides to pull out his shitty Kel-Tec 9mm, points it at the cop with the safety still on, accidentally hits the mag release button, and capstones his short shitty life with suicide by cop when Officer Ricky's survival instincts kick in and he empties his Glock 21 into the face of Mizz Calhoun's youngest boy.

And what do the lefties respond with? Oh, let's out Officer Ricky in the court of public opinion because he should have used less than lethal options or used his police academy Judo to disarm this poor young man who had intentions of going to college and was already the CEO of his own record label (Skraight Skrugglin Productions, Inc.). When the grand jury acquits, the DOJ can send in their data sniffers and pour over every email, paper document, and recorded phone conversation to parse out anything that even smells like a sideways, cross-eyed comment about "people of color". Meanwhile, all of this happening under the watchful gaze of our oppositionist party administration and perennial race hucksters who rush in to paint a virtual meme mural that echoes the ghosts of Selma, the African slave trade, Jim Crowe, lynchings, MLK, Rosa Parks, Rodney King, minstrel shows, 1968, Dick Gregory's step and fetchit rants, Cornel West's revisionist history lessons, Critical Race Theory, microaggressions, #checkyoprivlidge, and any number of things that are completely irrelevant to the fact that a bastard raised by a welfare mother who has no inkling of a workable moral/ethical decision matrix and most definitely saddled with racially correlated cognitive dysfunction is not going to fare well in the consensus reality of Western Civilization and all of the attendant expectations and responsibilities that go along with residence and citizenship in said environment.

We...should...have...picked...our...own...cotton. It's as goddamn simple as that. Our second greatest mistake is that we didn't shackle their carcasses to the bottom of a boat and ship their emancipated black asses back to darkest Aphriqua. The only solution to people whose IQs are 20 points below the mean is segregation...keep them away from their betters because it ain't gonna end well (for either party). One side ends up being trampled and butthurt, the other side foots the bill, and no fun is had by either side.

[TerryB]

The "why" is racism.

How can anyone definitively say that without first eliminating all other factors? Notice the analysis never seems to dig too deep.

[Grandpa's Spells]

The "why" is racism.

How can anyone definitively say that without first eliminating all other factors? Notice the analysis never seems to dig too deep.

I've mentioned a few times now that the police harassment of black citizens considerably exceeds any reasonable adjustment based on the *admitted* disproportionate crime rate of blacks in that community. It's goofy that people completely ignore that point.

[johno]

The "why" is racism.

How can anyone definitively say that without first eliminating all other factors? Notice the analysis never seems to dig too deep.

I've mentioned a few times now that the police harassment of black citizens considerably exceeds any reasonable adjustment based on the *admitted* disproportionate crime rate of blacks in that community. It's goofy that people completely ignore that point.

I just addressed that point, as did Bogatir from his POV & experience.

IMO, a reasonable alternative to your RACISM explanation is:

High crime areas attract a disproportionately larger and more intrusive police presence.

It's not racist, but the police net will be over broad, and will result in more stops, pretextual searches, and tickets for the residents of the high crime neighborhoods.

IF residents of a crime free black neighborhood get the same treatment as those in Compton, then racism is a likely reason. But many black neighborhoods produce criminal overachievers; that makes me agnostic on the RACISM charge.

[Grandpa's Spells]

IMO, a reasonable alternative to your RACISM explanation is:

High crime areas attract a disproportionately larger and more intrusive police presence.

That's not an alternative argument that addresses what's actually happening. Greater presence? Of course there should be, and high crime communities want more cops there. But randomly stopping people in their cars with no probable cause? Everybody from one race? Regardless of whether the area is high crime or not? Beating the shit out of innocent people?

[TerryB]

I've mentioned a few times now that the police harassment of black citizens considerably exceeds any reasonable adjustment based on the *admitted* disproportionate crime rate of blacks in that community.

I haven't read the DOJ's report, but I've heard traffic stops were a data point that supposedly proved racism. You're saying this is true because, using the traffic stop issue, blacks are stopped considerably more often (even allowing for "reasonable adjustments"). But my point is, have all other factors been accounted for? You're simply repeating the point, as if disproportionate stops must mean racism.

But there are a host of other factors that I doubt have been analyzed. Where do traffic stops occur? They rarely occur uniformly across a city. Certain areas tend to be more heavily patrolled. Are traffic stops occurring more often in particular parts of town, where the demographics are heavily black? And does that correlate with the number of violent crimes or reports of crime in the area? For example, perhaps cops often stop people in high risk parts of town because that's where most crime occurs. That would skew the number for reasons other than race. That is one simple consideration that would require a much more in-depth statistical analysis then simply looking at the number of traffic tickets written and the race of the drivers.

Also, how about age differences in the population? Younger drivers speed more. Is that accounted for? Are young people distributed evenly throughout Ferguson? Are elderly whites are stopped at the same rate as elderly blacks?

What about poverty levels? If we assume the less money you have, the more likely you are to have expired tags, unrepaired tail lights, etc., then financial status would explain the number of stops, especially if we assume there are more low income blacks then whites in Ferguson (I don't know, I'm speculating). Cops could be targeting POS cars, which happen to be driven by low income folks. Is race involved? Maybe, but it could also be explained by cops targeting shitty cars b/c losers drive shitty cars and losers tend to have pot in the car, have warrants for their arrest b/c they didn't pay their child support, etc etc etc

The reality is, a thorough statistical analysis is probably quite complicated, and the DOJ's analysis probably relies heavily on the Ferguson PD's reports, which are likely not thorough at all. If you want to say "racism," it's easy to do. If you want to know the truth, it probably takes a lot of analysis, which Holder's DOJ is not terribly interested in doing.

More to the point, the law may be such that detailed analysis is unnecessary, and you can label an entire PD as "racist" without bothering to do a thorough analysis. That is unfortunate, but again doesn't prove much about the actual racism of the PD.

[Sua Sponte]

The "why" is racism.

How can anyone definitively say that without first eliminating all other factors? Notice the analysis never seems to dig too deep.

I've mentioned a few times now that the police harassment of black citizens considerably exceeds any reasonable adjustment based on the *admitted* disproportionate crime rate of blacks in that community. It's goofy that people completely ignore that point.

I have a sneaking suspicion you are smarter than this. Let's use the numbers you previously suggested, a ratio of 10-to-1 for the commission of crimes, outstanding warrants, whatever for one group versus the other. For argument sake, let's say 30 offenders per 100 in one population, 3 offenders per 100 in the other. For simplicity we'll assume 100 stops per day for Mr. Policeman. The results easily generalize even if we don't make either assumption. There is no better strategy than to make 100% of your stops of the 30 per 100 group and 0% for the 3 per 100 group. 100 stops, 30 arrests this way, something less than that, usually considerably less than that, for any combination of stops consisting of some from each group. Stopping the one group 10 times more often than the other is less effective and less fair.

To further exacerbate this sort of "analysis", you will often find the statistics in the press comparing the black population at large to specific subsets of other groups. Not sure if that's the case here as you didn't mention from where you drew your data. A casual read of even the more august publications shows this fallacy time and again.

[Kazuya Mishima]

I've mentioned a few times now that the police harassment of black citizens considerably exceeds any reasonable adjustment based on the *admitted* disproportionate crime rate of blacks in that community.

I haven't read the DOJ's report, but I've heard traffic stops were a data point that supposedly proved racism. You're saying this is true because, using the traffic stop issue, blacks are stopped considerably more often (even allowing for "reasonable adjustments"). But my point is, have all other factors been accounted for? You're simply repeating the point, as if disproportionate stops must mean racism.

But there are a host of other factors that I doubt have been analyzed. Where do traffic stops occur? They rarely occur uniformly across a city. Certain areas tend to be more heavily patrolled. Are traffic stops occurring more often in particular parts of town, where the demographics are heavily black? And does that correlate with the number of violent crimes or reports of crime in the area? For example, perhaps cops often stop people in high risk parts of town because that's where most crime occurs. That would skew the number for reasons other than race. That is one simple consideration that would require a much more in-depth statistical analysis then simply looking at the number of traffic tickets written and the race of the drivers.

Also, how about age differences in the population? Younger drivers speed more. Is that accounted for? Are young people distributed evenly throughout Ferguson? Are elderly whites are stopped at the same rate as elderly blacks?

What about poverty levels? If we assume the less money you have, the more likely you are to have expired tags, unrepaired tail lights, etc., then financial status would explain the number of stops, especially if we assume there are more low income blacks then whites in Ferguson (I don't know, I'm speculating). Cops could be targeting POS cars, which happen to be driven by low income folks. Is race involved? Maybe, but it could also be explained by cops targeting shitty cars b/c losers drive shitty cars and losers tend to have pot in the car, have warrants for their arrest b/c they didn't pay their child support, etc etc etc

The reality is, a thorough statistical analysis is probably quite complicated, and the DOJ's analysis probably relies heavily on the Ferguson PD's reports, which are likely not thorough at all. If you want to say "racism," it's easy to do. If you want to know the truth, it probably takes a lot of analysis, which Holder's DOJ is not terribly interested in doing.

More to the point, the law may be such that detailed analysis is unnecessary, and you can label an entire PD as "racist" without bothering to do a thorough analysis. That is unfortunate, but again doesn't prove much about the actual racism of the PD.

DIS NIGGA SPITTIN FREAKONOMICS UP IN DIS MUFFUGGA SHEEEEEEIIITTTTTTT

[TerryB]

This is a pretty fair article for those of you who click links:

http://thefederalist.com/2015/03/06/six ... on-report/

[Turdacious]

This is a pretty fair article for those of you who click links:

http://thefederalist.com/2015/03/06/six ... on-report/

Though this point has been muted in press, it’s actually a major component of the report. Ferguson bureaucrats, we are told, put significant pressure on the police to issue as many citations as possible, to the point of disciplining or demoting them if they don’t write enough tickets. Why do they do this? For the money, obviously. Bureaucrats aren’t terribly interested in on-the-street details as long as the cash keeps coming.
We all get angry when we feel the police are using the law as an excuse to shake us down.

The Justice Department thinks cops should prioritize law and public safety. We should stop using them as de facto tax collectors.

Anyone opposed? I thought not. We all get angry when we feel the police are using the law as an excuse to shake us down.

If people actually wanted that, they'd vote for higher property taxes, higher local sales taxes (if those are legal in MO), higher fees, etc... Or they'd elect people who actually cut spending without raising deficits.

Overall good article though.

[Blaidd Drwg]

Though this point has been muted in press, it’s actually a major component of the report. Ferguson bureaucrats, we are told, put significant pressure on the police to issue as many citations as possible, to the point of disciplining or demoting them if they don’t write enough tickets. Why do they do this? For the money, obviously. Bureaucrats aren’t terribly interested in on-the-street details as long as the cash keeps coming.
We all get angry when we feel the police are using the law as an excuse to shake us down.

The Justice Department thinks cops should prioritize law and public safety. We should stop using them as de facto tax collectors.

Anyone opposed? I thought not. We all get angry when we feel the police are using the law as an excuse to shake us down.

If people actually wanted that, they'd vote for higher property taxes, higher local sales taxes (if those are legal in MO), higher fees, etc... Or they'd elect people who actually cut spending without raising deficits.

I don't follow you. You mean if the public wanted bureaucrats to have more money, they'd raise it through transparent (taxes etc) means? Having worked in a fee based agency, I have seen this disconnect between what the voters want to pay for vs. what they are willing to fund.

[Turdacious]

Though this point has been muted in press, it’s actually a major component of the report. Ferguson bureaucrats, we are told, put significant pressure on the police to issue as many citations as possible, to the point of disciplining or demoting them if they don’t write enough tickets. Why do they do this? For the money, obviously. Bureaucrats aren’t terribly interested in on-the-street details as long as the cash keeps coming.
We all get angry when we feel the police are using the law as an excuse to shake us down.

The Justice Department thinks cops should prioritize law and public safety. We should stop using them as de facto tax collectors.

Anyone opposed? I thought not. We all get angry when we feel the police are using the law as an excuse to shake us down.

If people actually wanted that, they'd vote for higher property taxes, higher local sales taxes (if those are legal in MO), higher fees, etc... Or they'd elect people who actually cut spending without raising deficits.

I don't follow you. You mean if the public wanted bureaucrats to have more money, they'd raise it through transparent (taxes etc) means? Having worked in a fee based agency, I have seen this disconnect between what the voters want to pay for vs. what they are willing to fund.

They don't want to cut services (or what they pay for those services) and don't want to raise taxes. Raising fees through the local PD allows you to raise revenue without doing either, and without pissing off the middle class.

[Blaidd Drwg]

Ah yes. I grok

[powerlifter54]

The big takeaway here that keeps being missed by the usual suspects is if you get stoned, rob a store, parade down the middle of street, try to punch a cop and go for his gun, then charge the cop rather then heading out to a 44 and doing it again some other day...you are very likely to get shot.

The rest of the State and local government issues, cop and National guard overreach, and impact of DOJ and race hustlers is important but a young guy got morted because nobody ever told him the takeaway. Life is not like a video game or a hip hop video.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

Life is not like a video game or a hip hop video.

That's stone cold gangsta right there.

[dead man walking]

we now turn our attention to madison, wisconsin

Madison, Wis. – — The 19-year-old black man who was shot and killed by a veteran officer was unarmed, Madison’s police chief said Saturday.

Chief Mike Koval said Officer Matt Kenny, 45, has more than 12 years of experience and was involved in a 2007 shooting but was cleared of any wrongdoing because it was a “suicide by cop-type” situation.

Tony Robinson was shot Friday night after an altercation in which the officer was knocked down by a blow to the head, authorities said. Koval said it wasn’t clear whether Robinson, who died at a hospital, was alone in the apartment where the shooting happened, which neighbors said was where Robinson lived.

“He was unarmed. That’s going to make this all the more complicated for the investigators, for the public to accept,” Koval said.

Several dozen protesters gathered outside the Dane County Public Safety Building on Saturday before starting to walk toward the scene of the shooting, holding signs that read, “Black Lives Matter” — a slogan adopted by activists and protesters around the nation after recent officer-involved deaths of unarmed black men. Protesters also shouted the slogan Friday night after the shooting. . .

Koval said police were called about 6:30 p.m. Friday because Robinson was jumping into traffic. A second call to police said the man was “responsible for a battery,” Koval said.

Kenny went to an apartment and forced his way inside after hearing a disturbance. Koval said the officer was assaulted by Robinson, and then fired at him. Koval said he believes more than one shot was fired.

[Turdacious]

Ah yes. I grok

To me, here's the key question-- from a local perspective, is the value of an aggressive PD as a revenue generating agency more important than treating poor people (who often happen to be black) fairly? My guess is it's the former. I'm guessing that this as true in fiscally challenged cities ranging from Philly to Ferguson.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

IME, and this is going back 20 years mind you, but the summonses (tickets, whatever they call it in your area) in the ghetto were bullshit numbers anyways. Meaning, they rarely paid them. You need to write, I dunno, 3-5x as many summonses in those areas to get the same revenue you actually see from one summons generated in a 'nice' area...and I'm probably being conservative. Also, the 'quotas that don't exist' were a fraction for us in ghetto houses than it was for say Queens Marines or midtown cops (under either Dinkins or Rudy...EDIT, not because they were being nice to the 'poor folk of the ghetto' but because we were just too busy with radio runs, ect).

But we could and did peel off 6-8 summonses in one shot on Mamadu driving an illegal gypsy (you know, because blacks driving legit, yellow cabs won't pick up black guys so Mamadu from Africa is the only guy who will). If you want to get even a little granular with the folly and waste of attempting to generate revenue via summonses in the GET-TOE, you can see how it actually costs a city money.

[DrDonkeyLove]

we now turn our attention to madison, wisconsin

Madison, Wis. – — The 19-year-old black man who was shot and killed by a veteran officer was unarmed, Madison’s police chief said Saturday.

Chief Mike Koval said Officer Matt Kenny, 45, has more than 12 years of experience and was involved in a 2007 shooting but was cleared of any wrongdoing because it was a “suicide by cop-type” situation.

Tony Robinson was shot Friday night after an altercation in which the officer was knocked down by a blow to the head, authorities said. Koval said it wasn’t clear whether Robinson, who died at a hospital, was alone in the apartment where the shooting happened, which neighbors said was where Robinson lived.

“He was unarmed. That’s going to make this all the more complicated for the investigators, for the public to accept,” Koval said.

Several dozen protesters gathered outside the Dane County Public Safety Building on Saturday before starting to walk toward the scene of the shooting, holding signs that read, “Black Lives Matter” — a slogan adopted by activists and protesters around the nation after recent officer-involved deaths of unarmed black men. Protesters also shouted the slogan Friday night after the shooting. . .

Koval said police were called about 6:30 p.m. Friday because Robinson was jumping into traffic. A second call to police said the man was “responsible for a battery,” Koval said.

Kenny went to an apartment and forced his way inside after hearing a disturbance. Koval said the officer was assaulted by Robinson, and then fired at him. Koval said he believes more than one shot was fired.

I can't imagine anyplace more opposite from the Ferguson portrayed on the news than the peoples republic of Madison, WI.

[Pinky]

IME, and this is going back 20 years mind you, but the summonses (tickets, whatever they call it in your area) in the ghetto were bullshit numbers anyways. Meaning, they rarely paid them

That's why Ferguson charged late fees that quickly exceeded the original fines, and routinely held people hostage until someone paid at least part of their bill. You were working for an actual police department, not a government-sanctioned gang of highway robbers.

[DrDonkeyLove]

IME, and this is going back 20 years mind you, but the summonses (tickets, whatever they call it in your area) in the ghetto were bullshit numbers anyways. Meaning, they rarely paid them

That's why Ferguson charged late fees that quickly exceeded the original fines, and routinely held people hostage until someone paid at least part of their bill. You were working for an actual police department, not a government-sanctioned gang of highway robbers.

Last year I got a ticket for backing into a parking space in a public lot in Butler, PA. I never heard of such a ridiculous parking regulation but there was a small sign that I didn't notice so I was guilty.

* The ticket was $5 and had to be paid in 5 days. I didn't rush to pay and looked in the mail the next week to see that it had jumped to $25. When I came back from a business trip the next week, it had jumped to $75 and they warned me that it was about to jump to $125 and they were going to issue a warrant for my arrest. I called and payed by phone immediately. All of this took place in approximately 2 weeks.

If I was poor I could see a plate reader catching me driving to work one day and the next thing you know, I'd be in jail with maybe $1,000 of towing and storage fees on my hooptie car that I'd probably never see again and my job would be gone. The poor may not be loaded with Mensa members but they're smart enough to know when they're being bled.

* Dates & dollar amounts are per my recollection but aren't far off.

[Protobuilder]

IME, and this is going back 20 years mind you, but the summonses (tickets, whatever they call it in your area) in the ghetto were bullshit numbers anyways. Meaning, they rarely paid them

That's why Ferguson charged late fees that quickly exceeded the original fines, and routinely held people hostage until someone paid at least part of their bill. You were working for an actual police department, not a government-sanctioned gang of highway robbers.

Last year I got a ticket for backing into a parking space in a public lot in Butler, PA. I never heard of such a ridiculous parking regulation but there was a small sign that I didn't notice so I was guilty.

* The ticket was $5 and had to be paid in 5 days. I didn't rush to pay and looked in the mail the next week to see that it had jumped to $25. When I came back from a business trip the next week, it had jumped to $75 and they warned me that it was about to jump to $125 and they were going to issue a warrant for my arrest. I called and payed by phone immediately. All of this took place in approximately 2 weeks.

If I was poor I could see a plate reader catching me driving to work one day and the next thing you know, I'd be in jail with maybe $1,000 of towing and storage fees on my hooptie car that I'd probably never see again and my job would be gone. The poor may not be loaded with Mensa members but they're smart enough to know when they're being bled.

* Dates & dollar amounts are per my recollection but aren't far off.

Finally, I've learned something from this site.

It's the word 'hooptie' but better than nothing, I suppose.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

IME, and this is going back 20 years mind you, but the summonses (tickets, whatever they call it in your area) in the ghetto were bullshit numbers anyways. Meaning, they rarely paid them

That's why Ferguson charged late fees that quickly exceeded the original fines, and routinely held people hostage until someone paid at least part of their bill. You were working for an actual police department, not a government-sanctioned gang of highway robbers.

Yeah, that's an unbelievable waste of time and no cop wants to do that bullshit anyway, except I guess State Troopers since that's most of their day. The only reason I did not hate writing summons to the Mamadu's was because I knew they'd never pay. I still suspect the math on that does not jive once you peel back the onion a bit in the F-town example. Also, as you state, that is gov't directed and is not a policing problem.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

[quote="dead man walking"]we now turn our attention to madison, wisconsin[quote]

I was in Madison 4-5 weeks ago and missed a gas station robbery by minutes, around 9PM on a Thursday. Nice enough area, too....hotels, corporate offices, the usual suspect franchises, all in the vicinity.

I'm sure there will be enough UW Madison kids who will protest. Otherwise, Madison is pretty vanilla.

[Turdacious]

IME, and this is going back 20 years mind you, but the summonses (tickets, whatever they call it in your area) in the ghetto were bullshit numbers anyways. Meaning, they rarely paid them

That's why Ferguson charged late fees that quickly exceeded the original fines, and routinely held people hostage until someone paid at least part of their bill. You were working for an actual police department, not a government-sanctioned gang of highway robbers.

The key question, IMO, is what should the city in Ferguson's situation do? NYC makes nice revenue from local sales taxes and wall street bonuses, plus it gets a lot of revenue from tourism-- their police department gives them maximum value from solid police work.

Philly and Ferguson are different stories-- neither are huge tourist destinations and don't seem to have competitive advantages over their neighbors to attract quality residents. Raising tax rates makes them less competitive, and cutting the price you pay for services risks pissing off entrenched unions (Philly's case), or puts you at a competitive disadvantage with your neighbors who pay more (Ferguson's case).

In these cases, using law enforcement as a revenue generator that preys on the financially and socially disadvantaged seems like the least of three evils. I'm not suggesting that it's a good solution, but not respecting why it is often a preferred one is a mistake.