Occupy Wall Street

[Sangoma]

how many other instances of deceit are there? more than have been prosecuted, no doubt.

Don't forget Enron. The magnitude of scams they ran while lying to investors and everyone else was enormous. Enron got caught only because their activities got out of hand. Similar schemes on lower scale are normal occurence in big business.

[Fat Cat]

Good work man, good reporting too. I think any sane person should have mixed views of a thing like this.

[dead man walking]

JPMorgan Chase & Co. (JPM) was sued by two investors who claim the bank was “at the very center” of Bernard Madoff’s Ponzi scheme.

The investors, Stephen and Leyla Hill, claim JPMorgan should have been aware that Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC was passing all the money he stole from customers through a JPMorgan account known as the “703 Account.” They seek to represent all investors who had money invested with Madoff in December 2008, when he was arrested and the fraud collapsed. He was convicted and sentenced to 150 years in prison.

“While numerous financial institutions enabled Madoff’s fraud, JPMC was at the very center of that fraud, and thoroughly complicit in it,” the Hills said in a complaint filed today in Manhattan federal court. “JPMC could not perform even cursory due diligence on Madoff or BLMIS without bumping up against evidence of Madoff’s fraud.”

[Fat Cat]

That's the government's fault.

[Fat Cat]

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/ ... s-unhappy/

A similar lesson emerges from a classic experiment conducted by Franz de Waals and Sarah Brosnan. The primatologists trained brown capuchin monkeys to give them pebbles in exchange for cucumbers. Almost overnight, a capuchin economy developed, with hungry monkeys harvesting small stones. But the marketplace was disrupted when the scientists got mischievous: instead of giving every monkey a cucumber in exchange for pebbles, they started giving some monkeys a tasty grape instead. (Monkeys prefer grapes to cucumbers.) After witnessing this injustice, the monkeys earning cucumbers went on strike. Some started throwing their cucumbers at the scientists; the vast majority just stopped collecting pebbles. The capuchin economy ground to a halt. The monkeys were willing to forfeit cheap food simply to register their anger at the arbitrary pay scale.

This labor unrest among monkeys illuminates our innate sense of fairness. It’s not that the primates demanded equality — some capuchins collected many more pebbles than others, and that never created a problem — it’s that they couldn’t stand when the inequality was a result of injustice. Humans act the same way. When the rich do something to deserve their riches, nobody complains; that’s just the meritocracy at work. But when those at the bottom don’t understand the unequal distribution of wealth — when it seems as if the winners are getting rewarded for no reason — they get furious. They doubt the integrity of the system and become more sensitive to perceived inequities. They start camping out in parks. They reject the very premise of the game.

Home run with this post.

[baffled]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/donnad/occupy-hollywood

[Fat Cat]

Seems to me, the ^ implication ^ is that Jesus was a political philosopher, that his example & exhortations to love one another and to be our brother's keeper were a societal prescription.

Absolutely.

[PC Polar Circle Person]

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/ ... s-unhappy/

A similar lesson emerges from a classic experiment conducted by Franz de Waals and Sarah Brosnan. The primatologists trained brown capuchin monkeys to give them pebbles in exchange for cucumbers. Almost overnight, a capuchin economy developed, with hungry monkeys harvesting small stones. But the marketplace was disrupted when the scientists got mischievous: instead of giving every monkey a cucumber in exchange for pebbles, they started giving some monkeys a tasty grape instead. (Monkeys prefer grapes to cucumbers.) After witnessing this injustice, the monkeys earning cucumbers went on strike. Some started throwing their cucumbers at the scientists; the vast majority just stopped collecting pebbles. The capuchin economy ground to a halt. The monkeys were willing to forfeit cheap food simply to register their anger at the arbitrary pay scale.

This labor unrest among monkeys illuminates our innate sense of fairness. It’s not that the primates demanded equality — some capuchins collected many more pebbles than others, and that never created a problem — it’s that they couldn’t stand when the inequality was a result of injustice. Humans act the same way. When the rich do something to deserve their riches, nobody complains; that’s just the meritocracy at work. But when those at the bottom don’t understand the unequal distribution of wealth — when it seems as if the winners are getting rewarded for no reason — they get furious. They doubt the integrity of the system and become more sensitive to perceived inequities. They start camping out in parks. They reject the very premise of the game.

Home run with this post.

Yes.

[PC Polar Circle Person]

Mostly a). Economists have enormously less influence on policy than people think. Even when a good idea is sent to Congress lobbying efforts water it down or kill it completely.

But I apologize for sounding smug. It's an epidemic in my profession, and something that I'm trying to work on.

Economists don't influence public policy because they rely on logic and analysis. Politicians have to appeal to the lowest common denominator, and due to our evolutionary history, concepts like math and probability were of little to no value compared to concepts like fear and fight-for-your-life, so to really get the masses to support them in an election, politicians have to play the fear card over the logic card.

Yes, this is used to blow things completely out of proportion. It is very useful to observe our reactions to things and to figure out why we react as we do.

[Turdacious]

Another experiment:

The coffee and hot dog carts were located in Civic Center Plaza, the same location as the Occupy San Diego protesters.

That group first settled in to the plaza Oct. 7 and set up a tent city which has since twice been taken down by police.

Coffee cart owner Linda Jenson and hot dog cart operators Letty and Pete Soto said they initially provided free food and drink to demonstrators, but when they stopped, the protesters became violent.

And according to one city councilman, bodily fluids were used in the attacks.

“Both carts have had items stolen, have had their covers vandalized with markings and graffiti, as well as one of the carts had urine and blood splattered on it,” said Councilman Carl DeMaio.

The damages will likely require at least a complete cleaning if not a replacement of the cart covers, DeMaio said.

In addition to the attacks, the vendors also said they recently received death threats.

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/11/ ... ood-urine/

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

Another experiment:

The coffee and hot dog carts were located in Civic Center Plaza, the same location as the Occupy San Diego protesters.

That group first settled in to the plaza Oct. 7 and set up a tent city which has since twice been taken down by police.

Coffee cart owner Linda Jenson and hot dog cart operators Letty and Pete Soto said they initially provided free food and drink to demonstrators, but when they stopped, the protesters became violent.

And according to one city councilman, bodily fluids were used in the attacks.

“Both carts have had items stolen, have had their covers vandalized with markings and graffiti, as well as one of the carts had urine and blood splattered on it,” said Councilman Carl DeMaio.

The damages will likely require at least a complete cleaning if not a replacement of the cart covers, DeMaio said.

In addition to the attacks, the vendors also said they recently received death threats.

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/11/ ... ood-urine/

Monkeys like to throw feces.

[Fat Cat]

Why is it that you have such a strong reaction to OWS, which is more or less harmless, and yet have been largely silent on the issue of corporate corruption?

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/ ... s-unhappy/

A similar lesson emerges from a classic experiment conducted by Franz de Waals and Sarah Brosnan. The primatologists trained brown capuchin monkeys to give them pebbles in exchange for cucumbers. Almost overnight, a capuchin economy developed, with hungry monkeys harvesting small stones. But the marketplace was disrupted when the scientists got mischievous: instead of giving every monkey a cucumber in exchange for pebbles, they started giving some monkeys a tasty grape instead. (Monkeys prefer grapes to cucumbers.) After witnessing this injustice, the monkeys earning cucumbers went on strike. Some started throwing their cucumbers at the scientists; the vast majority just stopped collecting pebbles. The capuchin economy ground to a halt. The monkeys were willing to forfeit cheap food simply to register their anger at the arbitrary pay scale.

This labor unrest among monkeys illuminates our innate sense of fairness. It’s not that the primates demanded equality — some capuchins collected many more pebbles than others, and that never created a problem — it’s that they couldn’t stand when the inequality was a result of injustice. Humans act the same way. When the rich do something to deserve their riches, nobody complains; that’s just the meritocracy at work. But when those at the bottom don’t understand the unequal distribution of wealth — when it seems as if the winners are getting rewarded for no reason — they get furious. They doubt the integrity of the system and become more sensitive to perceived inequities. They start camping out in parks. They reject the very premise of the game.

Home run with this post.

IN,

It is not your fault that those at the bottom 'don't understand'. Are you being 'rewarded for no reason'? Or do you think OWS'ers would give you (or me) a pass?

What would Napoleon Hill say to the comment in bold?

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

Why is it that you have such a strong reaction to OWS, which is more or less harmless, and yet have been largely silent on the issue of corporate corruption?

Way back on the first few pages of this thread, I voiced my opinion of there being three groups responsible for the mess. Government officials, Corporate and finally, the Consumers who bought-in to the caper.

My strong reaction to OWS is they have no message and no end game, there is evidence of corruption within the ranks of what has been alleged to be a flat org, they are destructive and are harming small businesses and property owners. I believe they (the fulltime protesters) need to be looking for jobs instead of bitching for hand outs. I speculate that most of the protesters are not people who are underwater with their mortgage or people who have lost their homes, I speculate it's mostly a bunch of spoiled white kids who have no clue as to how hard their families worked to get them as far as they did.

[CharlieBob]

I speculate that most of the protesters are not people who are underwater with their mortgage or people who have lost their homes, I speculate it's mostly a bunch of spoiled white kids who have no clue as to how hard their families worked to get them as far as they did.

The picture below is a person I am sad to say I know. Her family has an incredibly successful business and is easily in the "1%". She was recently complaining that the "temp job" she is at wants to keep her on longer, which will take away from her being able to put more energy into the protests!!!!!! Regardless of what she does her financial stability is ensured through her parents hard work.

From what I have seen these are the majority of people who make up these damned protests, and why I think they are such a god damn wast of time, money, and energy.

[Grandpa's Spells]

It is not your fault that those at the bottom 'don't understand'. Are you being 'rewarded for no reason'? Or do you think OWS'ers would give you (or me) a pass?

Of course they would. You and and IN actually provide products and services. This is why OWS doesn't hate Steve Jobs.

[Fat Cat]

Why is it that you have such a strong reaction to OWS, which is more or less harmless, and yet have been largely silent on the issue of corporate corruption?

Way back on the first few pages of this thread, I voiced my opinion of there being three groups responsible for the mess. Government officials, Corporate and finally, the Consumers who bought-in to the caper.

My strong reaction to OWS is they have no message and no end game, there is evidence of corruption within the ranks of what has been alleged to be a flat org, they are destructive and are harming small businesses and property owners. I believe they (the fulltime protesters) need to be looking for jobs instead of bitching for hand outs. I speculate that most of the protesters are not people who are underwater with their mortgage or people who have lost their homes, I speculate it's mostly a bunch of spoiled white kids who have no clue as to how hard their families worked to get them as far as they did.

Fair enough. It just doesn't seem like you to let something get you so riled up, but somehow this seems to strike a nerve with you.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

It is not your fault that those at the bottom 'don't understand'. Are you being 'rewarded for no reason'? Or do you think OWS'ers would give you (or me) a pass?

Of course they would. You and and IN actually provide products and services. This is why OWS doesn't hate Steve Jobs.

Apple uses bank loans. How granular are we getting here?

[johno]

But when those at the bottom don’t understand the unequal distribution of wealth — when it seems as if the winners are getting rewarded for no reason — they get furious.

So the more economically ignorant you are (i.e., the less you understand about business and capitalism), the more likely you are to get furious. And occupy Wall Street.



To illustrate my point, the face of economic and historic ignorance:





She has "nothing to lose"? She has no idea what she could lose.

[Grandpa's Spells]

It is not your fault that those at the bottom 'don't understand'. Are you being 'rewarded for no reason'? Or do you think OWS'ers would give you (or me) a pass?

Of course they would. You and and IN actually provide products and services. This is why OWS doesn't hate Steve Jobs.

Apple uses bank loans. How granular are we getting here?

Not very. Nobody objects to fair market b2b loans.

[CharlieBob]

Not very. Nobody objects to fair market b2b loans.

Apple also wouldn't be around if it wasn't for the "evil" Microsoft.

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-202143.html

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

Why is it that you have such a strong reaction to OWS, which is more or less harmless, and yet have been largely silent on the issue of corporate corruption?

Way back on the first few pages of this thread, I voiced my opinion of there being three groups responsible for the mess. Government officials, Corporate and finally, the Consumers who bought-in to the caper.

My strong reaction to OWS is they have no message and no end game, there is evidence of corruption within the ranks of what has been alleged to be a flat org, they are destructive and are harming small businesses and property owners. I believe they (the fulltime protesters) need to be looking for jobs instead of bitching for hand outs. I speculate that most of the protesters are not people who are underwater with their mortgage or people who have lost their homes, I speculate it's mostly a bunch of spoiled white kids who have no clue as to how hard their families worked to get them as far as they did.

Fair enough. It just doesn't seem like you to let something get you so riled up, but somehow this seems to strike a nerve with you.

It doesn't strike a nerve to the point where I'm going to take time off from work to bust out my own bullhorn and read "Self Reliance" and "Constructive Living" to the crowd. Although, that would be interesting as if I dressed just the right hippster way, I'd have crowds of them saying 'right on, man'!

[clutch]

Rewind the clock to 1988; I had my Masters, was 28, and had no job.

No health insurance. No pension. Shacked up with friends. Assload of student loan debt (which I'm still paying back today). No help from the parents, either.

Landed a job driving a forklift and trucks for a construction company. Busted my ass, and taught myself how to program a PC-based database system for inventory control in the evenings, using a friend's computer. Took the computer into the big boss's office one day, showed him what I'd made - and suddenly I was not driving a forklift, except on the rare occurrence that there was a rush, and nobody else was available.

Busted my ass, regularly clocking 70-80 hour work weeks, until finally in 1995, I was in a position where I could afford health insurance, and something other than a beater car. Took me until 2002 (age 40) to own a house.

I don't see anything wrong with this. I just don't see the point of OWS.

[dead man walking]

To illustrate my point, the face of economic and historic ignorance:

"destruction of the commons" is a genuine issue.

the right talks about environmental regulation killing jobs. the left talks about destruction of the commons. they offer different views of the public good.

a number of businesses have, and still do, profit at the expense of the public's health. i think that is wrong. but can we afford to correct the wrong?

how do you resolve a genuine dilemma? tea party slogans are horseshit. as are people sitting in redwoods.

constructive living is a useful book, but it doesn't address this.

[Turdacious]

It is not your fault that those at the bottom 'don't understand'. Are you being 'rewarded for no reason'? Or do you think OWS'ers would give you (or me) a pass?

Of course they would. You and and IN actually provide products and services. This is why OWS doesn't hate Steve Jobs.

Apple uses bank loans. How granular are we getting here?

No antitrust violations on Apple's part-- no sirree.