Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

Post by Blaidd Drwg »

Turdacious wrote:I think that during a period where other high level cyclists and even his teammates were caught, he wasn't. I also know that the burden of proof isn't on him.

I noticed you skipped the dom/sub aspect of his relationship with Hincapie. Why is that?

K..I can grok your first point but I think you don't really understand the mechanics of how they test and how very few of those who dope get popped.

I don't mock Hincapie because I have a ton of respect for him. He is a phenomenal athlete in his own right.
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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

Post by Thatcher II »

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Turdacious wrote:BD's position on LA explained:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g[/youtube]

Turd, easy question.. Do you think he's clean?

Keep up the good work Gorby.
I happen to know something about this subject and that doesn't suit you. You're happiest being king of the dung heap. So you're going to demonstrate your mastery by engaging with.....Turd. Downhill your speciality, no doubt.

The counter-argument to people expressing concern for kids entering a twisted drug-cultured sport where early death has been endemic is what, exactly? You refuse to say it but it's free-market bollox that you wrap yourself in. As do most Americuns. The richest country in the world with hundreds of thousands of homeless people. It's all a bag of shit.

Do carry on. You're making yourself look really clever which is, after all, your real point.
Last edited by Thatcher II on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

Post by Turdacious »

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Turdacious wrote:I think that during a period where other high level cyclists and even his teammates were caught, he wasn't. I also know that the burden of proof isn't on him.

I noticed you skipped the dom/sub aspect of his relationship with Hincapie. Why is that?

K..I can grok your first point but I think you don't really understand the mechanics of how they test and how very few of those who dope get popped.

I don't mock Hincapie because I have a ton of respect for him. He is a phenomenal athlete in his own right.
Hincapie turned on LA because he got popped and copped a plea (is he really different than Landis?). I understand that they test winners extra close, and have caught pretty much all of them who (EDIT-- do not) have the last name Armstrong. I also understand that cycling is a European sport, and that they've had a hard on for LA for years and couldn't find proof he doped.

I'm just surprised to see you defending Officer Friendly so vociferously like this.
Last edited by Turdacious on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

Post by The Ginger Beard Man »

but I think you don't really understand the mechanics of how they test and how very few of those who dope get popped.
Can this be briefly explained? I don't know about this stuff. I tend to agree with Turds point there, though I take it for granted that nobody in professional sports is clean.
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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

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Turdacious wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Turdacious wrote:I think that during a period where other high level cyclists and even his teammates were caught, he wasn't. I also know that the burden of proof isn't on him.

I noticed you skipped the dom/sub aspect of his relationship with Hincapie. Why is that?

K..I can grok your first point but I think you don't really understand the mechanics of how they test and how very few of those who dope get popped.

I don't mock Hincapie because I have a ton of respect for him. He is a phenomenal athlete in his own right.
Hincapie turned on LA because he got popped and copped a plea (is he really different than Landis?). I understand that they test winners extra close, and have caught pretty much all of them who have the last name Armstrong. I also understand that cycling is a European sport, and that they've had a hard on for LA for years and couldn't find proof he doped.

I'm just surprised to see you defending Officer Friendly so vociferously like this.
I hate office friendly, I thing WADA/USADA should be disbanded. That said, Lance doped. They don't test extra close. They test. The test for the most powerful of all the PED's during the Lance era was EPO. They had no test for it other than a hematocrit until recently when the peloton switched to CERA which WADA said they had a test for but didn't until 2011. Going back over the samples with new procedures is how they are so certain they have a case. I think its wrong, I think it doesn't comport with due process and it is crystal clear to anyone following the sport that, Lance and every other tour winner of the last 25 year (Roche forward) has doped.


There are reams on how EPO testing works, and how it get beaten. Try this starter.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2005/09/ ... -test_8795

Alex Duff, Reporter for Bloomberg news, stated the following in an Oct. 29, 2007 article titled "Athletes Fool Test of Banned Drug by Using Soap, Scientist Says," posted on Bloomberg.com:
"A few grains of household soap can destroy the banned drug EPO [7.a] in an athlete's urine sample, wrecking a test that cost $2 million to develop... Scientists made the discovery after a former Tour de France cyclist said he was given an unidentified powder to sabotage surprise tests... [A]nti- doping authorities may need to start checking for protease [14.a], a class of enzymes that destroys EPO and is in soap powder, dishwashing solution and contact-lens cleaner...

There's no reference to protease on the World Anti-Doping Agency's list of banned substances... sing soap powder would destroy all EPO in urine, both synthetic and what is produced naturally by kidney cells."

Oct. 29, 2007 - Alex Duff
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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

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Gorbachev wrote: I happen to know something about this subject and that doesn't suit you. You're happiest being king of the dung heap. So you're going to demonstrate your mastery by engaging with.....Turd. Downhill your speciality, no doubt.

The counter-argument to people expressing concern for kids entering a twisted drug-cultured sport where early death has been endemic is what, exactly? You refuse to say it but it's free-market bollox that you wrap yourself in. As do most Americuns. The richest country in the world with hundreds of thousands of homeless people. It's all a bag of shit.

Do carry on. You're making yourself look really clever which is, after all, your real point.
You are a troll. If you know so much, ask a real question not some blather about homelessness.

How are the kids being harmed by flagrant and widespread PED usage in WSM?
How are they currently being benefited by popular culture lying to them about PED's impact on sports performance?
It's a waste of time, and no one wants to watch a drug free TDF anymore than they want to watch F-1 cars limited to 250HP
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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

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This is like talking to a woman.
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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

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Lance Armstrong = Lying Liar Who Lies
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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

Post by Protobuilder »

This is like having a disputed game and then wanting to go back seven years later because technology has improved enough that we can see the instant reply on our 3,000 inch HD flatscreens. LA played the game and won and everybody needs to deal with that.
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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

Post by dead man walking »

that's one way to look at it terry.

the other is to think of it as a cold case that, because of advances in technology, can now be solved. the investigators, assisted by new test results, re-interview witnesses, and when confronted with the evidence, the perps confess the truth.

the desire for truth is strong. all because of a fucking woman, eve.
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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

Post by Blaidd Drwg »

Gorbachev wrote:This is like talking to a woman.

C'mon ya little blighter.You wanted to engage, give us an answer.

What harm is coming to your children?. I must assume you speak from some authority as a parent? What harm will befall our nations youth if we quit lying about drugs in cycling, in the Olympics, in football, soccer, tennis, hell...Golf? Maybe you're not a parent...maybe you have competed yourself? I must then assume you have tried the drugs? found them horrifying? saw yourself develop superhuman powers overnight? Or no? Perhaps it's second hand knowledge. Maybe you have friends still in the peloton? I assume you've read the offers from continental teams, the non-disclosure? the Red Book? Maybe none of those apply and you're talking out your ass? In that case, tell us how the War on Drugs was such a success that we need to expand that moralistic vigor to the task of purifying the hearts and minds of our young athletes.
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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

Post by Protobuilder »

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Gorbachev wrote:This is like talking to a woman.

C'mon ya little blighter.You wanted to engage, give us an answer.

What harm is coming to your children?. I must assume you speak from some authority as a parent? What harm will befall our nations youth if we quit lying about drugs in cycling, in the Olympics, in football, soccer, tennis, hell...Golf? Maybe you're not a parent...maybe you have competed yourself? I must then assume you have tried the drugs? found them horrifying? saw yourself develop superhuman powers overnight? Or no? Perhaps it's second hand knowledge. Maybe you have friends still in the peloton? I assume you've read the offers from continental teams, the non-disclosure? the Red Book? Maybe none of those apply and you're talking out your ass? In that case, tell us how the War on Drugs was such a success that we need to expand that moralistic vigor to the task of purifying the hearts and minds of our young athletes.
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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

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Blaidd Drwg wrote:...It's an interesting thing about caring...among those who really understand the sport, drugs are a sort of non issue, everyone accepts that it's an even playing field.

....Of the people really pushing the issue it's the same across sport, the casual fans and the also-rans. They whinge chronically with the same classic arguments people use to enact new laws.

It's not fair!
What about the Children?

This movement, sadly has a lot of traction and seeks to enforce a sort of self righteous victorian socialism on sport that cannot be achieved in the broader culture.
You said the above. Which is bollox. "What about the children" is a legitimate question.
The substances taken at pro, amateur and underage level are not administered by ethical doctors in all cases. In fact:

- a lot of what's taken is hearsay and bullshit. Cyclists have been using creams pills and potions for a long time based on rumour. They take stuff at multiples of the correct therapeutic dose, usually seeking only a desired side effect.

- there are many unexplained deaths in cycling where riders died in their sleep. A cluster are believed to be from EPO, where heart rates dropped at night and the blood was so thick, the heart could not pump it around the body. Hence the practice grew of wearing a monitor to wake the athlete to exercise during the night if necessary.

- the drugs might not kill you but they will cause problems. Liver damage, addiction, depression, psychosis, heart damage etc etc. This is big doses of shit cyclists don't fully understand done clandestinely.

- blood doping is well documented with stories of bags of warm blood being ferried around on scooters with zero regard for safety.

If your argument is that throwing open the gates to allow a free-for-all makes the sport safer, that holds water to an extent because it would eliminate some of the risks incurred to hide what's going on.

But overall, accepting that anything goes throws in the towel on any sort of meaningful cyclist welfare. You're basically creating an explicit underclass of people for whom basic welfare is deemed unnecessary in their workplace. The Tour group may (but prob not) get decent medical care but there'll be a lot at lower levels killing themselves and doing huge damage.

The change that needs to happen is an express change in culture. I caught doping, you get kicked out of the sport forever. Your team is fined millions. Samples are kept and tested for 50 years or more as science evolves. Fines will still apply. (This is partly the point of the LA hearing).

Is that going to ever be perfect? Probably not. But it's the lesser of two evils. The science is catching up at last. The average speeds in the peleton are falling. Stick free market justifications for creation of an undermensch athletic class of humans up your arse.
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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

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Good last sentence. I still lean towards BD's stance, but you've given the best anti-drug argument I've heard for a while. A good friend of mine is a scientist whose company provides drug testing capability for the IOC, but he is pretty pessimistic about their chances of ever truly getting ahead of the 'cheats'. He says it's in part a technology issue, (relies too much on getting samples at the right time, at the right temperature, in the right conditions) and partly economic, (drugs trade > international sports federations). I can foresee the technology issue being overcome in time, but the economic one is a stumbling block. This is why I tend towards BD's point of view.

Anyway, all this trivia is distracting from the fact that British sportsmen are in real danger of actually winning something this summer. What with the cyclists and the cricket team we are faced with the prospect of having nothing to winge about until the Olympics start. This is bad for the national psyche.
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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

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You're forgetting the bottling homo, Andy Murray.
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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

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Is he British?? Thought Scotland had broken away.
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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

Post by clutch »

On a related tangent: reading all the reports of how a large percentage of Oxycontin abusers stopped abusing it when the drug was reformulated in 2011 to make it more difficult (nearly impossible) to crush for snorting, injection, smoking. Huge numbers of former OC addicts stopped.

And switched to heroin.


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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

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Gorbachev wrote:
"What about the children" is a legitimate question.
It may be a legitimate question. I never said it was not. I've been in the industry of writing and fighting new laws for 20 years. The justifications I cited, good and bad come down to those two nearly every time.
The substances taken at pro, amateur and underage level are not administered by ethical doctors in all cases. In fact:

- a lot of what's taken is hearsay and bullshit. Cyclists have been using creams pills and potions for a long time based on rumour. They take stuff at multiples of the correct therapeutic dose, usually seeking only a desired side effect.

- there are many unexplained deaths in cycling where riders died in their sleep. A cluster are believed to be from EPO, where heart rates dropped at night and the blood was so thick, the heart could not pump it around the body. Hence the practice grew of wearing a monitor to wake the athlete to exercise during the night if necessary.

- the drugs might not kill you but they will cause problems. Liver damage, addiction, depression, psychosis, heart damage etc etc. This is big doses of shit cyclists don't fully understand done clandestinely.

- blood doping is well documented with stories of bags of warm blood being ferried around on scooters with zero regard for safety.
No argument there except that you have absolutely no working knowledge of any of those substances or the level of sophistication that exists even at the amateur level. Nonetheless, the current situation reinforces the problems you cited by limiting what riders are allowed to do to protect their own health. Nothing in my argument would make these worse. Your nanny state solution protects no one.

If your argument is that throwing open the gates to allow a free-for-all makes the sport safer, that holds water to an extent because it would eliminate some of the risks incurred to hide what's going on.


It is the only legitimate alternative. My argument is a moral one. It is immoral for you top tell me what I put in my body.
But overall, accepting that anything goes throws in the towel on any sort of meaningful cyclist welfare. You're basically creating an explicit underclass of people for whom basic welfare is deemed unnecessary in their workplace. The Tour group may (but prob not) get decent medical care but there'll be a lot at lower levels killing themselves and doing huge damage.

The change that needs to happen is an express change in culture. I caught doping, you get kicked out of the sport forever. Your team is fined millions. Samples are kept and tested for 50 years or more as science evolves. Fines will still apply. (This is partly the point of the LA hearing).


No. This is total shite. The idea of an underclass in cycling or any other dilettante activity is utterly without merit. Professional Sports are the ultimate in self selection. Further, in the sports I think you may be wringing your hands over, (ball sports etc...) Drugs are a minimal issue..Why? because the all the EPO and Test in the world will not change your status as a an also ran in football. All the drugs can really do in these contexts is to prolong a career.

Endurance and Strength sports are right at the fringe of human capability, that's why you see more use in these sports like swimming, skiing cycling, weightlifting....because these are actual game changers. But Baseball? pffffft. Bullshit. You need to be a world class hitter to hit, extra mass prolonged Bonds's career. it didn't make him a better hitter.


At the end of the day, It's not free market anything, it's just the benefit of constructing a system that has at least a sense of reality to it. You are not going to change a sporting culture that predates the first Olympic Games.
Is that going to ever be perfect? Probably not. But it's the lesser of two evils. The science is catching up at last. The average speeds in the peleton are falling. Stick free market justifications for creation of an undermensch athletic class of humans up your arse.
Undermensch..HAhahahahahahah...

No one but you, in your dark underachieving corner of the UK is worried about such nonsense. Your lesser of Evils is based on a a war on drugs solution to an immovable cultural reality.
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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

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underachieving corner of the UK?? C'mon man, British cyclists are 1&2 at time of writing. What more are you wanting???
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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

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odin wrote:underachieving corner of the UK?? C'mon man, British cyclists are 1&2 at time of writing. What more are you wanting???

My apologies!

Other than Chavendish, nothing but props to the UK in the TDF this year...They are manhandling it.
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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

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It's alright, I'm sure they'll manage to fuck it up before the end! I think Cav is saving himself for the Olympics. Funny really because I remember him telling a reporter he didn't care about the olympics not so long back.
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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

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odin wrote:It's alright, I'm sure they'll manage to fuck it up before the end! I think Cav is saving himself for the Olympics. Funny really because I remember him telling a reporter he didn't care about the olympics not so long back.

Yeah...he's been carrying a lot of water..As much as I dislike him, it's a shame to miss him on the big sprints. Gotta wonder if he knew the Green was out of reach when he signed with Sky.
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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

Post by odin »

Yeah, he's been a bit weird in some interviews when questioned around that. I wonder if he's thinking he's sold his soul to the devil.
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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

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My argument is a moral one. It is immoral for you top tell me what I put in my body.
This is the same shit that mill owners used in England in the 19th century, - "If children want to work here, that's their choice. If it's dangerous, that's their choice. If it's 80 hours a week, that's their choice. If there's no compensation for lost limbs, that's their choice".

I called this way back in this thread. It's "free market / free choice" Americun shit. You wouldn't get drawn but then you did and I was right all along. Your world view is a childish glance through chubby fingers. Inaccurate. Immature. Partial. And wrong.
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Re: Will they ever leave Lance Armstrong alone?

Post by Blaidd Drwg »

Gorbachev wrote:
My argument is a moral one. It is immoral for you top tell me what I put in my body.
This is the same shit that mill owners used in England in the 19th century, - "If children want to work here, that's their choice. If it's dangerous, that's their choice. If it's 80 hours a week, that's their choice. If there's no compensation for lost limbs, that's their choice".

I called this way back in this thread. It's "free market / free choice" Americun shit. You wouldn't get drawn but then you did and I was right all along. Your world view is a childish glance through chubby fingers. Inaccurate. Immature. Partial. And wrong.

Sutton, are you that stupid that you can't see the difference between an entire class system based on cheap labor and the top down imposition of your morals on my practices? The fact is, you have an untenable, incoherent slippery slope argument underpinning you whole trollography here. With each ridiculous class war assertion you underline how little you understand the chemistry or working conditions of an athlete.

Now if you were to reverse your nonsensicals and say, "It's appalling that the NFL will NOT ALLOW their players access to the proper restoratives, and this creates an unsafe work environment" I'd agree with you but this woud still be miles from a class issue regardless of how little these coddled short timers make in their athletic careers.

I understand that you couldn't hack it with the children argument (that was a loser out the box) this is not and never was and never will be a class issue.
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