I think any and all @Fers on the fence about the RRG owe it to themselves and others to get full disclosure on which party couch gave his deposition for, in fact, they should be asking for the transcript of that deposition.
If this question is not answered or is deemed "inappropriate", I would think @Fers would have all the info they needed about what would happen in the future right there. The fact that the GWF's deposition has never been a PDF on the mainpage or even in the CFJ should say something right there.
There is much dissent on the RRG on today's comment board (forewarning, this is long, interesting for some, terribly boring for others):
http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/004665.html
Regarding the RRG:
At the end of the video, the guys says he wants to put 5K into the RRG because it is going to make money.
How exactly are they going to make money? On the premiums charged to crossfiters? Who else are they going to sell insurance too? Because if you buy stock, pay a preimum and get a dividend from the company, you're really only getting part of your premium back. You're not making any money.
Also, they said the RRG is better than a normal insurance company because a normal insurance company only cares about making money.
So RRG is going to deviate from the business plan of a normal insurance company yet still make money?
The idea of "never settling" sounds amateurish. If you have a claim that is obviously legit, your lawyer isn't going to take it to trial. You will settle.
Again, the assumption is that there will never be a legit claim filed against Crossfit. That's wishful thinking.
Comment #17 - Posted by: Leroy at May 6, 2009 6:59 PM
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What's up cf'ers. I have a couple questions about the RRG video and site if anyone wants to comment.
Based on what I've seen/heard, the RRG sounds like it is designed to hire lawyers in the event that someone gets sued. This doesn't sound like an insurance company to me, but more like a legal defense fund.
An insurance company collects premiums and invests them. It uses that money to meet capital requirements in the event of a payment, like an insurance claim. It isn't completely clear from the site what those premiums will be and how much coverage will be offered. I know that the RRG is looking for its initial capitalization, but this other information is important.
Lastly, insurers typically like to insure against measurable quantities. That is, in a sufficiently large population, the number of people with profile y who are going to die at age x is relatively certain. Some will live longer and some less time, but on average that is the age a person of a certain profile will die. That is how an insurance company determines its premiums and whether it insures people, making it a low risk proposition for the insurance company. Is it possible to determine such statistics with CrossFit, when an activity like rhabdo is both trying to be avoided and may or may not have statistically relevant information as to how often it occurs? Is there a measurable statistic for how often people get sufficiently injured to sue, and then actually do sue their gym?
I love CF and love that it's at the cutting edge of fitness, but I don't understand this component and would like to. Thanks.
Comment #19 - Posted by: BRzl at May 6, 2009 7:09 PM
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Comment #35 -$200 of risk capital into a type of business that almost always makes money - hell, yeah, sign me up.
Benny, you should read March's journal:
"The CF-RRG will not exist to make money."
You are NOT going to make money by investing in the CF-RRG.
I watched that video and was a little dismayed with the scare tactics and bullying. Also, I don't see how the RRG is going to hire "the best attorneys in SF" and "refuse to settle."
So long as you're paying your attorney's bills, he'll be happy not to settle. The other attorney will be happy to not settle too. Maybe the RRG should find out how a losing plaintiff's attorney gets paid in California and you'll understand why PI attorneys love a stubborn client who will allow them to run up fees.
Comment #40 - Posted by: Steve at May 6, 2009 11:13 PM
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Re: RRG
Refusing to settle in all cases? What if a trainer/affiliate is blatantly negligent? Better to settle than waste money defending and having to pay out anyway + legal fees. The RRG is a great idea, but some of the stuff in that video seems a bit off, they should have had one of the lawyers there to answer questions.
Comment #43 - Posted by: grambo at May 6, 2009 11:32 PM
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Trying to do the right work and make a well informed decision about whether to go with the RRG, I consulted an attorney, who reviewed my waiver, that has specific language that indemnifies our affiliate from "errors and omissions", spells out the specific risks associated with and more unique to CrossFit, and reviewed my policy, issued by an insurer that specializes in working with the CrossFit community.
She said (she's a CrossFitter) that the risks associated with a potential CrossFit case will stem from the opposing side posing strong arguments that attack the expertise of the trainer, specifically along the lines of length of experience, training certifications, accepted standards within the fitness industry, etc.
She mentioned that the Level 1 solely as the credential because of a lack of practical examination leaves a window of opportunity for an enterprising attorney, and that a deposition would typically grill the trainer on scope of expertise. She mentioned further that it is ridiculous and unethical to present to the lay public that a settlement would never occur, this is contingent on the specifics of the case, all of which are unique.
The RRG still sounds like a unique idea, but it's a little disconcerting that the scare tactics are being used. It's taking on a flavor of "be with us or be against us."
Further, as most of our clients are avid perusers of the board, as well as the mainsite, the heavy promotion of the RRG smacks a little of the same scenario of an airline greeting you with parachutes at the check in gate.
Perhaps the marketing could be directed through emails to affiliates and trainers.
That being said, CrossFit is the best thing out there.
Comment #54 - Posted by: Erik at May 7, 2009 5:47 AM
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"Once you settle, it sets that precedent, then all those lawyers come out, they sue every one of us starting at the smallest ones...now you can't get insurance, now you're out of business."
What is this but a scare tactic? The Mimms case happened already, have we seen this spate of lawsuits? Do they know that "bogus lawsuits" are actually initiated by injured people and not a coordinated throng of lawyers?
If the RRG is such a good idea, why do they have to pitch it so aggressively? They don't even let the guy finish his questions before four people are telling him a story of doom and gloom. Starting the discussion with "What's the holdup?" sets a pretty aggressive tone. CrossFitters have a pretty independent streak, and I'm sure this raises as many red flags as it allays.
Comment #56 - Posted by: Richard at May 7, 2009 5:58 AM
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How in the world can Crossfit claim that they will never settle?
*Lots* of affiliates have *bad* trainers. Just because someone is Level 1 certified does not mean that will never cause a person harm. Maybe the trainer in the Mimms case wasn't at fault. But surely we can imagine an affiliate trainer making a mistake and causing a client injury.
What will the Crossfit insurance company do in a case where the affiliate trainer *does* cause injury? Not settle, even though the trainer was at fault? That's unethical and doesn't make financial sense either, since they will likely lose in court.
An insurance company is *supposed* to pay valid claims. I don't know what an RRG is, but a group that says they will never pay a valid claim is not an insurance company.
Comment #68 - Posted by: Very confused at May 7, 2009 6:58 AM
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Saw the RRG video and have to agree that they are bullying tactics. Any good lawyer whether defense or Plaintiff, will give you the strenghts and weaknesses of your case, the odds of winning or losing, and the exposure you will face. To tell someone lawyers cost 50 to 60 thousand or more to hire is a bunch of bull...if that were the case, think of how many "cases" this RRG would be able to defend (50K x 10), and now the RRG is out of money...and that was for the lawyer, what if the Plaintiff wins his/her 5 million dollar case??
I have seen some bad advice, but this takes it to a whole new level.
Where are the lawsuits? where are the bus loads of Plaintiffs attorneys filing suits? Any insurance company will give you an attorney to defend you from the lawsuit, and if they are worth their salt, will file the appropriate documents to get the suit thrown out if it is bogus.
Comment #84 - Posted by: legal eagle at May 7, 2009 9:16 AM
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Do I smell IGx trolls in the above? If so, nice work!