IGX

"Too much physics and not enough birthday party."

First one was good, second one was so-so.

friedquads wrote:And CrossFit Geneseo has disappeared off of the internets. Blogger page is gone and so is the Facebook page. Affiliates page has them listed, but the link obviously goes nowhere.

I guess it only took Dale Saran a day to get around to this.

friedquads wrote:And CrossFit Geneseo has disappeared off of the internets. Blogger page is gone and so is the Facebook page. Affiliates page has them listed, but the link obviously goes nowhere.

Okay, sorry, but real businesses don't turn turtle and delete their webpage when tragedy strikes. This reaffirms what I suspected, that the affiliate was some lady training people out of her house. In which case, I seriously doubt she has the pockets to weather a personal liability shitstorm.

Gin Master wrote:I guess it only took Dale Saran a day to get around to this.

WildGorillaMan wrote:Okay, sorry, but real businesses don't turn turtle and delete their webpage when tragedy strikes. This reaffirms what I suspected, that the affiliate was some lady training people out of her house. In which case, I seriously doubt she has the pockets to weather a personal liability shitstorm.

Yep. Like shredding documents before the Feds come. It's likely that Saran could have contacted Bethany (the owner) and told her to shut down immediately. And the RRG can't do anything since there is no approval in New York.

A very basic premise of tort law is that you generally don't have to be the SOLE cause of an injury to still be held liable. You simply have to CONTRIBUTE to the cause of the injury. And when you (a) hold yourself out as a 'certified' trainer, and (b) collect $$$$ for your so-called expertise (e.g., gym dues), you bet your ass you can be found liable. You may ultimately win, but you may not.

Crossfit HQ can most certainly be pulled into the fray. They may eventually get off the hook, but any good plaintiff's lawyer would froth at the mouth over the ridiculous admissions Glasshat et. co. have made over the years regarding safety. You can't pay lip service to safety, then prescribe workouts, COLLECT MONEY FOR CERTIFYING PEOPLE, but then just walk away when a "Crossfit" trainer kills someone (or hastens their death in this case) under your banner. You take the sour (liability) with the sweet (affiliate fees).

This shit is SO fucking clear, it amazes me the affiliates don't get it--THE RRG IS DESIGNED TO PROTECT HQ. If you hurt/maim/injure/kill someone, HQ WILL THROW YOU UNDER THE BUS TO AVOID BEING HELD LIABLE RIGHT ALONG WITH YOU.

Saran: Is the RRG up and running yet?

Rant wrote:[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veNzax3rbYM[/youtube]

friedquads wrote: It's likely that Saran could have contacted Bethany (the owner) and told her to shut down immediately.

Not likely, or radically stupid if he did, b/c by 'ordering' her to do ANYTHING they are admitting they have some degree of CONTROL over Bethany and her affiliate. This would (a) fuck w/ their whole "we're not a franchise!!" tax-avoidance thing, and (b) put them square in the sites of any impending lawsuit regarding this poor lady's death. If they had control after the fact, they presumably had control BEFORE the fact...so why didn't they do something to ensure safety? Exactly what are their procedures for ensuring safety? This opens up a very nice can of worms. Unless Saran is a 1st class dipshit lawyer, he will be staying FAR away from Bethany and they will immediately try to paint her as "off teh reservation," a "poor trainer" who didn't properly follow/administer the program. She needs to be the sole cause of this death or a jury might look in HQ's direction.

A nice conundrum comes up as well by their statemetns that "EVERYTHING IS CROSSFIT!!" If everything is Crossfit, then it doesn't really matter which specific workout Bethany was administering/supervising. IT WAS CROSSFIT. Making HQ more likely to be found liable.

protobuilder wrote:

friedquads wrote: It's likely that Saran could have contacted Bethany (the owner) and told her to shut down immediately.

Not likely, or radically stupid if he did, b/c by 'ordering' her to do ANYTHING they are admitting they have some degree of CONTROL over Bethany and her affiliate. This would (a) fuck w/ their whole "we're not a franchise!!" tax-avoidance thing, and (b) put them square in the sites of any impending lawsuit regarding this poor lady's death. If they had control after the fact, they presumably had control BEFORE the fact...so why didn't they do something to ensure safety? Exactly what are their procedures for ensuring safety? This opens up a very nice can of worms. Unless Saran is a 1st class dipshit lawyer, he will be staying FAR away from Bethany and they will immediately try to paint her as "off teh reservation," a "poor trainer" who didn't properly follow/administer the program. She needs to be the sole cause of this death or a jury might look in HQ's direction.

A nice conundrum comes up as well by their statemetns that "EVERYTHING IS CROSSFIT!!" If everything is Crossfit, then it doesn't really matter which specific workout Bethany was administering/supervising. IT WAS CROSSFIT. Making HQ more likely to be found liable.

Very true. However, I don't think that the idea of yanking the blog and Facebook profiles was inspired by Bethany. Looking over the content of the site before it went buh-bye, she doesn't seem to be smart enough to do that. However, if she lawyered-up (with Saran or someone else), she could have been advised to do so. It could also be possible that someone else at CFHQ told her to do this without Saran's knowledge. It has happened in other businesses where someone else in the organization slips up and legal has no clue on what is going on until it's too late to do any kind of proper damage control.

protobuilder wrote:
... radically stupid if he did... Unless Saran is a 1st class dipshit lawyer...

Please point out examples of past HQ behavior that would support the hypothesis that they have their shit together, or that Saran is an attorney who's worth a damn.

For the CF affiliate that shut down, the most likely explanation is that the CF trainer is devastated and shut down the business. If somebody died working out under my supervision, pre-existing condition or not it wouldn't be hard to imagine shutting down the business immediately.

Terrible that somebody died.

friedquads wrote:It could also be possible that someone else at CFHQ told her to do this without Saran's knowledge. It has happened in other businesses where someone else in the organization slips up and legal has no clue on what is going on until it's too late to do any kind of proper damage control.

WGM wrote:Please point out examples of past HQ behavior that would support the hypothesis that they have their shit together, or that Saran is an attorney who's worth a damn.

Too true on both accounts.

What was the final tally on the money raise for the gin fund ... er..."RRG"? Wasn't it a couple hundred grand? That will be gone in about 6 months of serious litigation. 'Sup affiliates!

Botototo wrote:AFAIK yes. The increased BP during her workout was almost certainly the proximal cause...

That's "proximate cause"

So what drives up BP the most? Lifting something really heavy, i.e., single rep max lift? Max intervals with full lactic acid bath?

Visited her web page. What a terrible situation. RIP girl.

nafod wrote:

Botototo wrote:AFAIK yes. The increased BP during her workout was almost certainly the proximal cause...

That's "proximate cause"

So what drives up BP the most? Lifting something really heavy, i.e., single rep max lift? Max intervals with full lactic acid bath?

Visited her web page. What a terrible situation. RIP girl.

First, very sorry for what happend. All the best to her family and everyone involved, including the trainer.

Single rep maxes drive BP the highest due to the heart having to pump blood through/against maximally contracting muscle. With a pre-existing condition this could have happend at any time for any reason no matter what kind of exercising she was doing.

IMO, and my opinion means jack shit in the court of law, if the trainer has a good interview questionaire and liability waiver where they ask for doctor's clearace before exercising, she should be in the clear. As much as we hate on @fit, this same thing would have happened no matter what she was doing. She could have one some leg presses in LA Fitness and dropped.

Can somebody give a link to the discussion about all this over at x-ft?

I can't ever figure out that site.

Gary John wrote:Can somebody give a link to the discussion about all this over at x-ft?

I can't ever figure out that site.

What discussion? You mean the TWO posts on Dede's death?

http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=56546

friedquads wrote:What discussion? You mean the TWO posts on Dede's death?

Everybody's busy talking about where they can get teh shirts from.

The legal disclaimer post is as classless as an organization can get.

Terry B, you limp wristed cock lover, introduce pathetic self.

Wait! I'll do it.

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Terry B, you limp wristed cock lover, introduce pathetic self.

Wait! I'll do it.

As soon as somebody tells me what the hell you said, I will get back to you asap!

Okay, sorry, but real businesses don't turn turtle and delete their webpage when tragedy strikes. This reaffirms what I suspected, that the affiliate was some lady training people out of her house. In which case, I seriously doubt she has the pockets to weather a personal liability shitstorm.

They actually had a cool set up in an old barn and were much less douchey then average @fitters. The owner was super close to Dede and apparently just crushed about the whole situation. I have it on pretty good authority that CFHQ shoed NO LOVE at all about this

CultBuster wrote:

Okay, sorry, but real businesses don't turn turtle and delete their webpage when tragedy strikes. This reaffirms what I suspected, that the affiliate was some lady training people out of her house. In which case, I seriously doubt she has the pockets to weather a personal liability shitstorm.

They actually had a cool set up in an old barn and were much less douchey then average @fitters. The owner was super close to Dede and apparently just crushed about the whole situation. I have it on pretty good authority that CFHQ shoed NO LOVE at all about this

I don't doubt that you're right. Both about the trainer being distraught, nor about HQ looking to cover their own damn asses as fast as they can.

Fat Cat wrote:

Hulk smash.

Sweet Gorilla Jesus, how did I miss this before?

friedquads wrote:And CrossFit Geneseo has disappeared off of the internets. Blogger page is gone and so is the Facebook page. Affiliates page has them listed, but the link obviously goes nowhere.

Both sites are more or less available through Google cache. They vanished without a word that either was being pulled. All folks involved seem like good, normal people.

Terry B. wrote:

friedquads wrote:And CrossFit Geneseo has disappeared off of the internets. Blogger page is gone and so is the Facebook page. Affiliates page has them listed, but the link obviously goes nowhere.

Both sites are more or less available through Google cache. They vanished without a word that either was being pulled. All folks involved seem like good, normal people.

Yeah, we know. And do yourself a favor - Go introduce yourself on the Free Speech Forum.

nafod wrote: So what drives up BP the most? Lifting something really heavy, i.e., single rep max lift? Max intervals with full lactic acid bath?

Visited her web page. What a terrible situation. RIP girl.

IMO, heavy lifting with Valsalva. Cardio-type exercise will increase cardiac output and hence, to an extent, BP, but the pressure spike when maximally "bearing down" can be tremendous.

Of course, you might argue that the increase in vascular pressure is counter-balanced by an equivalent increase in intra-abdominal pressure; that is, that the pressure outside the aorta is the same as inside, and therefore there should be no strain. In that case cardiogenic changes in pressure (and vasocompliant changes, as someone said) would be the only especially important ones. But I would still be wary and I doubt even someone who subscribed to that argument would be willing to blow up a birthday balloon if they had a known aneurysm.