Are all MD's dumb fucks?

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Pinky
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Re: Are all MD's dumb fucks?

Post by Pinky »

Sua Sponte wrote:When I schooled pre-meds and MD's in physics, engineering and related topics, I came away with a distribution that said about 10% legitimately intelligent people, quick to pick up on abstract ideas and apply them, 50-60% being hardworking mediocrity, doing the requisite studying while riding their big state school curves to the requisite GPA and on into medical school, and the remainder not being aptly described without the words dumb fuck.
I've had a number of MDs in the MBA classes I teach. I agree that only a minority are very smart, but I haven't seen any that I would say are actually dumb. (This might be because I see people in those classes who are dumber than the worst doctors.) The main difference in the MDs I teach is attitude. The bottom of the medical barrel will simply expect the class to be easy because, fuck you, they're doctors! Those assholes are the worst people you could ever have in a class. They can't say, "I don't know."

In any case, I'm sorry about your wife's problems, and I hope things get sorted out.
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Re: Are all MD's dumb fucks?

Post by nafod »

Pinky wrote:
Sua Sponte wrote:When I schooled pre-meds and MD's in physics, engineering and related topics, I came away with a distribution that said about 10% legitimately intelligent people, quick to pick up on abstract ideas and apply them, 50-60% being hardworking mediocrity, doing the requisite studying while riding their big state school curves to the requisite GPA and on into medical school, and the remainder not being aptly described without the words dumb fuck.
I've had a number of MDs in the MBA classes I teach. I agree that only a minority are very smart, but I haven't seen any that I would say are actually dumb. (This might be because I see people in those classes who are dumber than the worst doctors.) The main difference in the MDs I teach is attitude. The bottom of the medical barrel will simply expect the class to be easy because, fuck you, they're doctors! Those assholes are the worst people you could ever have in a class. They can't say, "I don't know".
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Re: Are all MD's dumb fucks?

Post by Andy83 »

MDs are notorious for buying, flying, and then dying in their own airplanes.
When I was an instructor,I had 2 of those. Just post solo in a Cessna 150. Went out and bought multi engine Cessnas. To them, flying an airplane was Mickey Mouse for a real MD.
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Re: Are all MD's dumb fucks?

Post by nafod »

Andy81 wrote:
MDs are notorious for buying, flying, and then dying in their own airplanes.
When I was an instructor,I had 2 of those. Just post solo in a Cessna 150. Went out and bought multi engine Cessnas. To them, flying an airplane was Mickey Mouse for a real MD.
Well, I admit to believing I could do an open heart surgery. Shit ain't that hard.
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Re: Are all MD's dumb fucks?

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nafod wrote:
Andy81 wrote:
MDs are notorious for buying, flying, and then dying in their own airplanes.
When I was an instructor,I had 2 of those. Just post solo in a Cessna 150. Went out and bought multi engine Cessnas. To them, flying an airplane was Mickey Mouse for a real MD.
Well, I admit to believing I could do an open heart surgery. Shit ain't that hard.
I have a do it yourself at home kit for that. $10. Cash, no credit cards.
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Re: Are all MD's dumb fucks?

Post by Spiller »

Because of the vast amount of material covered in medical school, the ones who do well are the ones who can memorize the best (to pass the test). Critical thinking and problem solving are not rewarded.

Dr. Andrew Weil talks about how first year med students are amazed that different people have different reactions to a drug, such as Tylenol. They think we are machines. Put in A; B happens.

Thinking outside of the box is often not done because of legal issues. The "Standard of Care" is what most doctors are doing. So, even if what most docs are doing is not helpful and some doc find something different that helps, he is not practicing the "standard of care". And can get sued because of that.

This has led to MDs performing multiple unnecessary tests and referring to multiple specialists, just to cover their ass.

The medical system is a mess. I hope your wife gets well soon.

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Re: Are all MD's dumb fucks?

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Sua, Coming back to the initial post, chronic or persistent pain with no obvious origin is very difficult to treat. I mean VERY. After cholecystectomy, when you exclude collections, infection, stones left behind (including those in abdominal cavity, not the bile duct), damage to the bile duct and other complications, there isn't really much left to consider. Titanium allergy is known to surgeons where I work (I asked around), and many of them use plastic clips for that purpose.

I am sure it is possible to find a surgeon willing to take the titanium clips out, but it is not very easy and completely safe. Well, surgery obviously implies that. If you were in Australia I could connect you with couple of very good upper GIT surgeons.

You probably have looked up post-cholecystectomy syndrome and are more educated about it than most of us. The last resort is to treat this pain itself, with nerve blocks and medication used to treat chronic pain.

I wish your wife all the best and hope she gets better.
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Re: Are all MD's dumb fucks?

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In regards to standards of care and inability to get out of the box, a lot of what has been said here in angry and derogatory way is in fact true. Look at educational system: the main method of examination of knowledge is multiple choice template, which is the worst way to check someone's knowledge. The consequence - students train themselves to pass multiple choice, not to actually get to know the subject. I teach registrars every day, and yes, you step outside the box and you get a puzzled stare. They want to know what gets them through the exams, and not many are genuinely and passionately interested in the subject itself.

What's to blame? Partially the fact that doctors get massive salaries. I am on the receiving side of the fence, but I still don't get why a building engineer's income is considerably less than that of an orthopaedic surgeon, for example. The sinister side-effect is that the reward drives the procedure, and often if there is a choice to operate or observe the difference in reward tips the decision towards the former.

Another big issue: patients expect that everything has to be treated, and at large extent the blame is with medical industry again. Believe it or not, registrars from ER who rotate through my department tell me about patients who present to the emergency room for mosquito bites, for fuck's sake. Most chest pains are not heart attacks, cough episodes are not pneumonia and most abdominal pains will resolve by themselves. That's where patient education plays a very important role.

There is an interesting author who came up with an interesting model of healthcare decisions, Gerd Gigerenzer. His book Better Doctors, Better Patients, Better Decisions proposes a different way of managing diagnosis and treatment of disease, where decisions are made by both the doctor and the patient. The idea is novel and radical, but I don't think it is a long shot.
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Re: Are all MD's dumb fucks?

Post by johno »

Sua, best wishes go out to your wife for a successful recovery.

*****

PS - The best approach to an arrogant MD is to remind him of his career origins. "Doc, along with your checkup, trim a little off the top & shave the back of my neck. And not too close around the ears, please."
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Re: Are all MD's dumb fucks?

Post by TerryB »

Sua Sponte wrote: Any attempt at engaging them on a scientific level, be it basic chemistry, probability and statistics or even their ability to read, comprehend, and critique their own literature leads to laughable discussions, which quickly conclude when they realize the whole of their intellectual contribution over the course of the discussion was finding a way to stick both feet in their collective mouths.
You're describing a problem with people, in general, not one limited to doctors. It's rare to find a person in any trade or profession that is willing to engage, think, reason, seek evidence, etc.
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Re: Are all MD's dumb fucks?

Post by Sua Sponte »

Thanks folks, for all the well wishes and suggestions. Wife is impressed. She has even agreed to try Nafod's scrotum test.

Smet, terra, spiller, others, appreciate the thoughtful and honest input.

There's nothing wrong and a lot right with taking the standard route or following best practices or high probability courses of action. It's when they don't produce results and one has to seek answers elsewhere that the stultifying glib responses from the MDs are so maddening-whether it be the outright dismissal of alternative explanations coupled to the clear inability to explain the reason for the dismissal or, worse yet, proffering reasons and ideas that are clearly wrong and trying to cover up the ignorance with a "you just wouldn't' understand" attitude. The best way to describe the attitude is "anybody who disagrees with me or doesn't recognize my superiority is arrogant." The irony is wholly lost. It's almost like they're all British.

To the idea that "you just wouldn't understand" I recently had a discussion with a new graduate of a motorcycle riding course. He was nonplussed by the idea that one can steer the bike one way or another by moving the bar in the opposite direction of the intended turn. Easy enough to explain but his questions forced me to think harder about it than I might have and to come up with explanations that didn't rely upon artifices like preservation of angular momentum vectors. The point is that answering his questions forced me to learn a new mental picture. Happens all the time in my profession and those of others, as well, I suspect. Recipients of our systems, bright folks in their own right, turn up observations and results that often times cause us to rethink our understanding or learn something new entirely and we're the supposed experts. Damn shame the medical profession sees itself above this legitimate interchange and learning tool.

The human body is complex. It is true that there are so many interactions leading to so many cross correlations that even big data analysis properly applied turns up false associations. And it's not very often that it is properly applied. Using software that you don't understand can lead to all sorts of false results. Especially among those who believe p=0.05 is some magical mathematical result rather than a randomly chosen number for experiments with far smaller solution spaces. To get an idea of the extent of the problem, read the below. For those of you enamored of climate science, consider that this problem is likely not unique to medical pseudo-science.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... /308269/2/

The working definition of dumb fucks I'm using here is closely associated to Smet's description of his students-I don't want to understand principles and apply them, I want to know what type of problem is going to be on the test and how to answer it. Well, it's Newtonian mechanics and there are just three laws-understand how to apply them and there's no reasonable question I can ask that you can't answer. The same sort of students who make sure to gerrymander their schedule to take the easy course with the easy professor, who fight for unearned extra points on their exams, and who have no interest in understanding. It's independent of traditional measures such as college board scores, grades, and kindergarten IQ tests. Seems the method of training of MDs herein described reward and reinforce the supremacy of that view.
Last edited by Sua Sponte on Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Are all MD's dumb fucks?

Post by Sua Sponte »

T>1200 wrote:
Sua Sponte wrote: Any attempt at engaging them on a scientific level, be it basic chemistry, probability and statistics or even their ability to read, comprehend, and critique their own literature leads to laughable discussions, which quickly conclude when they realize the whole of their intellectual contribution over the course of the discussion was finding a way to stick both feet in their collective mouths.
You're describing a problem with people, in general, not one limited to doctors. It's rare to find a person in any trade or profession that is willing to engage, think, reason, seek evidence, etc.
That hasn't largely been my experience, not in the so-called thinking professions anyway, but you may well be right. Those other people aren't receiving exorbitant fees and salaries for simple procedures while my wife's life has been turned upside down. I'm a bit more passionate about my view of this particular group as a result.


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Re: Are all MD's dumb fucks?

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Americans spend $33 billion (give or take) out of pocket for alternative medicine. Conventional medicine can't fix 'em, so they try something else, and when they get desperate, they'll try goofy shit.
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Re: Are all MD's dumb fucks?

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In 2008 I was 8 years out of high school and talking to a college graduate about me going into college the next year. He told me a big part of college is learning to take tests. I didn't understand this until the day I completely forgot everything I applied towards a test because the test was done, the subject didn't interest me and the info wasn't coming around again on the final. I am guessing I am far from alone in this experience.

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Re: Are all MD's dumb fucks?

Post by Shafpocalypse Now »

The big issue with college is that lack of applied knowledge in many fields.

Take a trial attorney: He doesn't know he doesn't like to participate in trails until he actually does so. I know two guys who have their Jurisprudence degrees and found they hate everything about lawyering. A period of interning before making the commitment would have saved them tens of thousands of dollars.

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Re: Are all MD's dumb fucks?

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The man in black wrote:In 2008 I was 8 years out of high school and talking to a college graduate about me going into college the next year. He told me a big part of college is learning to take tests. I didn't understand this until the day I completely forgot everything I applied towards a test because the test was done, the subject didn't interest me and the info wasn't coming around again on the final. I am guessing I am far from alone in this experience.

Looking back at my transcripts there was a senior level class that I have exactly zero memory of taking. I didn't remember the course, the professor, a single thing about the subject, not even if there were any hot girls who sat near me in the room.

Despite a complete blackout on the entire course I got an 8 (out of a 9-point scale) so I must have done some sort of work for it, although none of it now remains with me,except perhaps subconsciously.
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Re: Are all MD's dumb fucks?

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WildGorillaMan wrote:
The man in black wrote:In 2008 I was 8 years out of high school and talking to a college graduate about me going into college the next year. He told me a big part of college is learning to take tests. I didn't understand this until the day I completely forgot everything I applied towards a test because the test was done, the subject didn't interest me and the info wasn't coming around again on the final. I am guessing I am far from alone in this experience.

Looking back at my transcripts there was a senior level class that I have exactly zero memory of taking. I didn't remember the course, the professor, a single thing about the subject, not even if there were any hot girls who sat near me in the room.

Despite a complete blackout on the entire course I got an 8 (out of a 9-point scale) so I must have done some sort of work for it, although none of it now remains with me,except perhaps subconsciously.
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Re: Are all MD's dumb fucks?

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Spiller wrote:Because of the vast amount of material covered in medical school, the ones who do well are the ones who can memorize the best (to pass the test). Critical thinking and problem solving are not rewarded.
I've gotta chime in and say that having been through medical school this is not even close to the truth. Certainly memorization skill can help, but those who relied on memorization as their primary means of academic success failed miserably in medical school BECAUSE of the shear volume of information. It is not humanly possible to memorize all the information you are taught and tested on, and those who did the best combined memorization with developing a framework with which to understand complex systems that allowed them to critically analyze and reason out the answers to questions and problems for which they did not remember the specific detail that would have had to be memorized in order to answer the question by rote memory.
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Re: Are all MD's dumb fucks?

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Blaming the MDs is not entirely fair. You also have to blame our overprioritization of specialty care over primary care (letting a special interest monopoly set up the pricing structure is never a good idea), which led to too many specialists in some areas and too few in others. Also our liability system, which nobody really understands, and there's no good way in our system to limit your liability by good practice.

Between MDs, politicians, bureaucrats, special interest groups, and personal injury lawyers, there is plenty of blame to go around but no one to take responsibility.
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Re: Are all MD's dumb fucks?

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I only go to dwarfish jewish doctors who like to hunt with a bow

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Re: Are all MD's dumb fucks?

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CharlieBob wrote:
Spiller wrote:Because of the vast amount of material covered in medical school, the ones who do well are the ones who can memorize the best (to pass the test). Critical thinking and problem solving are not rewarded.
I've gotta chime in and say that having been through medical school this is not even close to the truth. Certainly memorization skill can help, but those who relied on memorization as their primary means of academic success failed miserably in medical school BECAUSE of the shear volume of information. It is not humanly possible to memorize all the information you are taught and tested on, and those who did the best combined memorization with developing a framework with which to understand complex systems that allowed them to critically analyze and reason out the answers to questions and problems for which they did not remember the specific detail that would have had to be memorized in order to answer the question by rote memory.
Same thing in flight school.
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Re: Are all MD's dumb fucks?

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WildGorillaMan wrote:Enthusiasm combined with no skill whatsoever can sometimes carry the day.


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Re: Are all MD's dumb fucks?

Post by TerryB »

Have you tried putting some of your analysis and research into a letter to the head physician (or whatever he/she is called), along with a request for whatever test or treatment you want?

Paper tends to get better results because people don't feel they can readily ignore it.
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Re: Are all MD's dumb fucks?

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sua. check you pm
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sua. check you pm
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