IGX

Let's have some fun and argue about guns!

Right platform wrong round.

I've found (as I'm sure you have BB) that if taken care of properly the M4/AR-15 is a solid weapon. Get yourself one in .300 Blackout with Optics to taste and you're golden.

I'll kick things off.

The much maligned AR-15 or M-16 is more than enough rifle. Almost every issue with the AR-15/M-16 can be traced back to DOD incompetence. When the M-16 was first sent to Vietnam it was sent to SF advisors. They demanded the rifle be put into production immediately and issued to troops. When the M-16 when field tested with a 55 gr bullet it delivered devastating wounds. Wounds so devastating, the pictures were classified as Top secret well into the 1970s and the International Red Cross wanted the M193 round banned from warfare as inhumane.

The M-16 was designed from the ground up to use a very clean and fast burning gun powder. The military decided to use dirty ball ammo instead.
The DOD fielded the M-16 with a non-Chrome lined Barrel, despite the fact the M-16 field tested in Vietnam had chrome lined barrels.
The Military did not issue cleaning kits with the M16 and even told troops (incorrectly) that the M16 was self-cleaning.

The combination of stupidity resulted in the M-16 becoming a jam o matic. The powder fouled the weapon. The fouling combined with a non-chrome lined barrel resulted in stuck spent cartridges. All made worse because no one was cleaning their weapons.

It only took the DOD untill the mid point of the Vietnam war to unfuck their mistakes. However, the PR damage had been done.

Then, not content with fucking the goat once, the DOD fucked things up a second time. In 1977 the Army changed the M-16 issue round from the 55gr M193 round. A FMJ round designed to yaw and fragment (hence the explosive wounds) to a 62 gr M855 round. This round did not yaw or fragment like the M193. So we went from a round that fragmented pretty regularly as designed to a round that could not be counted on to fragment.

Another mistake was the design of the 30 round mag. The original 20 round mag had a follower that tilted in the magazine body. This wasn't a big issue with a twenty round mag. In a thirty round mag, it was a mess. A whole generation of soldiers from 1977 on up into the late 1990s know the feeling of having a M-16 mag that would not feed a round into the M-16. The followers would stick so bad in some cases that you could shake rounds out of the magazine. It wasn't until the late 1990s that the DOD fixed the 30 round magazine. I use to number them and DX the ones that didn't work. I DX a lot of M-16 mags.

Master_Blaster wrote:Right platform wrong round.

I've found (as I'm sure you have BB) that if taken care of properly the M4/AR-15 is a solid weapon. Get yourself one in .300 Blackout with Optics to taste and you're golden.

The problem with 300 ACC BO is that it's not a standard round and hard to find. When I need a .30 caliber round I turn to my Gen II Sig 556R; all the benfits of an AK47 (same mags and round) with the ergonomics of an AR. I have a large stash of Hornady 7.62 SST rounds for just incase.

Good Info. I knew nothing about any of the Vietnam era Info. Good shit.

Overall I have never had an issue with any M4 I was issued other than 3rd shop level damage from a previous owner. As long as it was maintained/ cleaned regularly it shot like it was the workhorse it was intended to be.

Magazine maintenance also a plays a huge role. Everything you said about the Magazines into the late 90's was true. Unfortunately too many of those mags are still in circulation today. My last two trips i spent the money and bought two sets of Mag pul brand magazines. Best investment I ever made. Cleaned the crud out of the mags once a week and made sure the followers were unobstructed, good to go.

Batboy2/75 wrote:

Master_Blaster wrote:Right platform wrong round.

I've found (as I'm sure you have BB) that if taken care of properly the M4/AR-15 is a solid weapon. Get yourself one in .300 Blackout with Optics to taste and you're golden.

The problem with 300 ACC BO is that it's not a standard round and hard to find. When I need a .30 caliber round I turn to my Gen II Sig 556R; all the benfits of an AK47 (same mags and round) with the ergonomics of an AR. I have a large stash of Hornady 7.62 SST rounds for just incase.

Sig 556R!!!!!! Yes good call. You are correct and the .300 is rather pricey but so worth it. I've read the H&K 416 is pretty similair. Any experience w it?

The last go around with fucking the goat was in the late 1990s. The DOD decided to field the M4 with a 14.5 inch barrel. Absolutely no consideration was given to what this woud do to the ballistics of the M855 round. Shortening the barrel resulted in decreased muzzle velocity. The result? AT 200 meters out there was not enough velocity for the M855 5.56 round to yaw or tumble. Troops in Iraq and Afghanistan wher drilling little 22 holes in the jihadies.

It only took the DOD (Army and marines) 4 or so years to come up with a replacement round. The new rounds being fielded now are man killers. designed to either fragment (the new environmentaly friendly 62 grn round) or have enough mass to dump energy into it's taget and penetrate deep (77gr OTM round).

The answer is the Ar-15.M-4 or M-16 is more than enough weapon with the right 5.56 ammo.

Go to link and read up on the latest in ammo technology. All research conducted by an Army doctor that knows his shit about guns and has seen the real life results of gun wounds.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_D ... /index.htm

Master_Blaster wrote:

Batboy2/75 wrote:

Master_Blaster wrote:Right platform wrong round.

I've found (as I'm sure you have BB) that if taken care of properly the M4/AR-15 is a solid weapon. Get yourself one in .300 Blackout with Optics to taste and you're golden.

The problem with 300 ACC BO is that it's not a standard round and hard to find. When I need a .30 caliber round I turn to my Gen II Sig 556R; all the benfits of an AK47 (same mags and round) with the ergonomics of an AR. I have a large stash of Hornady 7.62 SST rounds for just incase.

Sig 556R!!!!!! Yes good call. You are correct and the .300 is rather pricey but so worth it. I've read the H&K 416 is pretty similair. Any experience w it?

The Sig 556R is a turd that has to be polished. Sig has a poor reputation with it's USA NH built rifles. I was prepared to send it back to Sig as many times a needed to fix any of the problem I had read about. On top of that I stripped the entire rfile down and reassembled, making sure to loctite all the key screws Sig is known to not loctite. I also installed some after market flip up iron sight. This was a pricy option , as Magpul or simular AR Back up iron sight don't work. I also sold the piece of crap cheap chinese red dot they give you and installed a aimpoint h1 I had sitting in the gun safe.

Not to mention you have to be a retard to not be able to hit anything at 100 yards with that weapon, it's no shit when they say Impact, point of aim. On a calm day it;s a fucking laser gun.

Bats, what do you think of the idea kicked around of going to the 6.8 round?

I hear it flys much like a 5.56, just a little more rise and drop and it hit's like 7.62x39. and you can carry only 3 rounds less per comparable weight to 5.56, so there is not as much to the argument used against going back to 7.62NATO about how many bullets you carry, per weight.

I saw a ballistic demo on film of 5.56 vs 6.8. They used gelatins and simulated skulls and the 6.8 blew the head apart.

I don't understand the obsession with 300BLK in the gun world - the ballistics are questionable beyond 100-150 yards (bullet drop, etc.) even in supersonic loads. I guess maybe it's an ideal subsonic round suppressed in short range situations, but that's an awfully narrow band of use for a $1200 upper and only economically feasible to practice with regularly if you're reloading your own.

Some info for those interested.

Maintenance

Buffer Spring 10,000 to 20,000 rounds replace. These are cheap. Buy a replacement buffer spring and just replace after 10K of ammo.

Extractor spring and extractor O ring: 10,000 to 20,000 rounds; another set of cheap replacement parts. Might as well replace the extractor also; again makes sure to use quality AR15 parts. Bargain basement AR parts are made with softer steel. I just buy Colt or Palmetto state Armory (FN) parts.

Bolt Gas rings: 5,000-10,000 rounds. With the bolt in the full extended position, stand your bolt carrier group standing straight up and on the bolts face. If the bolt slides back into the bolt carrier under the weight of the bolt carrier, your bolt gas rings are worn out. Replace them ricky tick.

Barrel Life: 10,000 to 40,000 rounds (depends on a lot of factors). Cheap barrels burn out fast. Fast firing your rifle will burn out your barrel; heat kills barrels. Chrome, and better yet Nitride coated barrels, will have a longer service life than regular steel barrels. 5.56/.223 is a high pressure, high velocity round, traveling down a narrow pipe. It wears barrels out quicker than other calibers. 7.62 (.30 cal) type rifles have been known to go 100K before burning out.

Buffer: If you have carbine length (M4) Ar-15 most likely your buffer is too light for the bolt carrier. Really depends on who assembled and or built your AR15. If you are experiencing excessive recoil, move up to a pistol caliber buffer. An indicator of a light buffer (or worn buffer spring) is hearing the buffer spring create a “sproing” sound as you fire. Sure sign your buffer is too light or maybe over gassed. Either way, a heavier buffer solves both.

Bolt Carrier: Check the bolt carrier key screws every 15,000 rounds. You should give it a quick check every time with disassemble and clean your rifle, but definitely check every 5K. If properly staked, they shouldn’t come loose, but anything will come loose with enough time and abuse.

Lube: AR-15s like to run wet. Now that doesn’t mean oil running out of the weapon. That means a good healthy coating on the bolt carrier. Pay particular attention to the two holes on the side of the bolt carrier as viewed from the ejection port. Fill these holes with gun oil; they lube and help the gas rings do their jobs.

Gas tube: Never, ever, ever clean or attempt to clean the gas tube! Don’t put oil down it. Don’t put one of those fancy brushes down it. The AR15 gas tube is self-cleaning. Also, if your AR15 gets dunked in water; clear the weapon with the barrel tilted. If anything blocks the gas tube it will cause a pressure spike in your rifle. At best your gas tube will rupture and your semi-auto is now a single shot bolt action. At worst, your AR-15 gas tube will rupture and so will your barrel. Not only destroying your barrel, but possibly killing and or maiming your dumb ass.

Cleaning: Clean as per the Army manual dictates. No need to go all boot camp crazy. The rifle does not have to be cleaned bone dry with no carbon. I light coat of carbon can be very protective.

Magazines: Clean and lube regularly and make sure you have antitilt followers.

milosz wrote:I don't understand the obsession with 300BLK in the gun world - the ballistics are questionable beyond 100-150 yards (bullet drop, etc.) even in supersonic loads. I guess maybe it's an ideal subsonic round suppressed in short range situations, but that's an awfully narrow band of use for a $1200 upper and only economically feasible to practice with regularly if you're reloading your own.

Not an obsession so much. I wanted an AR platform with a bigger load. .300 B/O was the first I was introduced to besides a 6.8 (with which I wasn't impressed). It's apples and oranges dude. And Idunno where you got the $1200 price tag I walked out the door w it for 7 hundo.

DARTH wrote:Not to mention you have to be a retard to not be able to hit anything at 100 yards with that weapon, it's no shit when they say Impact, point of aim. On a calm day it;s a fucking laser gun.

Bats, what do you think of the idea kicked around of going to the 6.8 round?

I hear it flys much like a 5.56, just a little more rise and drop and it hit's like 7.62x39. and you can carry only 3 rounds less per comparable weight to 5.56, so there is not as much to the argument used against going back to 7.62NATO about how many bullets you carry, per weight.

I saw a ballistic demo on film of 5.56 vs 6.8. They used gelatins and simulated skulls and the 6.8 blew the head apart.

I never got caught up in the 6.8 craze. Instead I chased the 6.5 Grendel Unicorn. I use to fire form my 7.62 x 39 brass to reload for 6.5 Grendel. My interest was 6.5 ammo; the perfect ballistic coefficient. An expensive experiment I dropped when I sold my 6.5 grendel upper.

More info for those interested.

Ammo

The AR-15 was designed to use clean burning gun powder. If you want the best performance out of your rifle pay attention to the ammo you buy.
Cheap ammo usually = poor accuracy, poor performance and a dirty gun. You won’t hit what you are aiming at; it won’t put them out of commission; and it might jam when you need it most.

Self-defense ammo

Go to this site and read up on the latest in on ammo ballistics. http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_D ... /index.htm

Match your ammo to your barrel twist. AR-15 barrels come in several different barrel twists; 1-14, 1-12, 1-9, 1-7 and some in between. These numbers represent the value of how many inches a bullet must travel down the barrel to make one full rotation. Since its introduction, the AR15s Barrel twist rate has been getting faster to accommodate heavier bullets.

1-14 and 1-12 can only handle 55 gr and lighter bullets. 1-9 can handle maybe up to 69 grain and sometimes (actually rare) up to 75 gr bullets. 1-7 barrels can handle the heaviest 5.56 bullet that can be fed from an AR15 magazine; 77 gr. 55gr, 77gr or anything in between; it will get the job done and kill someone dead. So long as you are using the correct ammo. You want a bullet that will either (1) yaw and break up and basically explode its energy within the targets flesh or (2) expand and dump its energy into the target while retaining enough mass to penetrate. Open tip, bounded hollow point, hollow point, and soft tip hunting rounds; will all work.

Do not use FMJ bullets. The military has to use them because of the Hague convention. You didn’t sign the Hague convention, so use the correct bullet. Even though the AR-15 was designed to use a 5.56 FMJ bullet that would yaw, tumble, and break apart. Studies have shown that even the best performing 5.56 round (55gr M193 FMJ) fail to yaw 1 out of 6 times. So you have an 18% chance of drilling a bad guy with a nice little hole. This issue only gets worse when short barrel length and distance become factors. Short barrels don’t deliver enough velocity for the 5.56 round to yaw at 200 meters out. No yaw=drilling holes.

Warning on Russian ammo: If you use cheap Russian or Ukrainian steel cased .223 or 5.56 ammo in your AR-15; be forewarned. This doesn’t mean you shouldn’t use Russian/Ukrainian ammo, just weigh the negatives first.

Russian and Ukrainian ammo manufacturers use bimetal bullets. Bimetal means they are using two metals. In this case, copper and zinc. This combo is like sand paper in a 5.556/.223 barrel and will severely shorten the life of your barrel. However, with the money you save using cheap ammo you can buy several replacement barrels. Not a bad deal if you’re handy with tools and like to do your own gun smithing.

I personally have a stash of high performance ammo from 55 gr up to 77gr ammo. 77 gr OTM rounds being my go to when the light go out and the welfare checks stop rolling. For practice I have tons of M193 made by federal.

Batboy2/75 wrote:More info for those interested.

Ammo

The AR-15 was designed to use clean burning gun powder. If you want the best performance out of your rifle pay attention to the ammo you buy.
Cheap ammo usually = poor accuracy, poor performance and a dirty gun. You won’t hit what you are aiming at; it won’t put them out of commission; and it might jam when you need it most.

Self-defense ammo

Go to this site and read up on the latest in on ammo ballistics. http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_D ... /index.htm

Match your ammo to your barrel twist. AR-15 barrels come in several different barrel twists; 1-14, 1-12, 1-9, 1-7 and some in between. These numbers represent the value of how many inches a bullet must travel down the barrel to make one full rotation. Since its introduction, the AR15s Barrel twist rate has been getting faster to accommodate heavier bullets.

1-14 and 1-12 can only handle 55 gr and lighter bullets. 1-9 can handle maybe up to 69 grain and sometimes (actually rare) up to 75 gr bullets. 1-7 barrels can handle the heaviest 5.56 bullet that can be fed from an AR15 magazine; 77 gr. 55gr, 77gr or anything in between; it will get the job done and kill someone dead. So long as you are using the correct ammo. You want a bullet that will either (1) yaw and break up and basically explode its energy within the targets flesh or (2) expand and dump its energy into the target while retaining enough mass to penetrate. Open tip, bounded hollow point, hollow point, and soft tip hunting rounds; will all work.

Do not use FMJ bullets. The military has to use them because of the Hague convention. You didn’t sign the Hague convention, so use the correct bullet. Even though the AR-15 was designed to use a 5.56 FMJ bullet that would yaw, tumble, and break apart. Studies have shown that even the best performing 5.56 round (55gr M193 FMJ) fail to yaw 1 out of 6 times. So you have an 18% chance of drilling a bad guy with a nice little hole. This issue only gets worse when short barrel length and distance become factors. Short barrels don’t deliver enough velocity for the 5.56 round to yaw at 200 meters out. No yaw=drilling holes.

Warning on Russian ammo: If you use cheap Russian or Ukrainian steel cased .223 or 5.56 ammo in your AR-15; be forewarned. This doesn’t mean you shouldn’t use Russian/Ukrainian ammo, just weigh the negatives first.

Russian and Ukrainian ammo manufacturers use bimetal bullets. Bimetal means they are using two metals. In this case, copper and zinc. This combo is like sand paper in a 5.556/.223 barrel and will severely shorten the life of your barrel. However, with the money you save using cheap ammo you can buy several replacement barrels. Not a bad deal if you’re handy with tools and like to do your own gun smithing.

I personally have a stash of high performance ammo from 55 gr up to 77gr ammo. 77 gr OTM rounds being my go to when the light go out and the welfare checks stop rolling. For practice I have tons of M193 made by federal.

Awesome info BB! This should all be nuggeted.

As a follow up to Darth's comment on gel tests.

If you are wondering how an ammo is going to perform, do a search on youtube (name of ammo+ caliber + gel test) and you'll find some crazy mofo that is testing ammo. The standard is a round fired into calibrated ballistics gelatin through 4 layers of denim.

I use to be in the right platform, wrong round crowd. However, the more I read and the More I've tested; the 5.56 round is fine. So long as you use an appropriate round.

I get what you're saying. I just feel that most folks/ grunts who complain about the M4/ AR don't know what they're talking about when they bitch about it.

Overall I think it's a good weapon. It served me and thousands of other guys very well.

Master_Blaster wrote:I get what you're saying. I just feel that most folks/ grunts who complain about the M4/ AR don't know what they're talking about when they bitch about it.

Overall I think it's a good weapon. It served me and thousands of other guys very well.

Most don't know that the Army and Marine Corps didn't get their act together on armorer level maintenance well into the 2000s. I though the M-16 was a piece of shit until a delta opperator type gave me some pointers. I immediately bought some buffer springs, extractor spings and gas rings. I also started to number my magazines so i could easily id the bad ones.

Batboy2/75 wrote:

Master_Blaster wrote:I get what you're saying. I just feel that most folks/ grunts who complain about the M4/ AR don't know what they're talking about when they bitch about it.

Overall I think it's a good weapon. It served me and thousands of other guys very well.

Most don't know that the Army and Marine Corps didn't get their act together on armorer level maintenance well into the 2000s. I though the M-16 was a piece of shit until a delta opperator type gave me some pointers. I immediately bought some buffer springs, extractor spings and gas rings. I also started to number my magazines so i could easily id the bad ones.

I had no clue. The only thing you mentioned that I did was bought aftermarket Mags and a new Buffer spring. It is AMAZING the things you can learn from Group guys

Also, if you have the standard M-16 handguard, do not use your sling for stabilization. You are fucking with the point of aim. I don't care what your Drill Sgt said; he's a dumbass. I don't care that you shot expert; you got lucky. When taking a shot over 100 meters, grip the magazine well when shooting off hand and use the magazine a a monopod when in the prone.

Master_Blaster wrote:

Batboy2/75 wrote:

Master_Blaster wrote:I get what you're saying. I just feel that most folks/ grunts who complain about the M4/ AR don't know what they're talking about when they bitch about it.

Overall I think it's a good weapon. It served me and thousands of other guys very well.

Most don't know that the Army and Marine Corps didn't get their act together on armorer level maintenance well into the 2000s. I though the M-16 was a piece of shit until a delta opperator type gave me some pointers. I immediately bought some buffer springs, extractor spings and gas rings. I also started to number my magazines so i could easily id the bad ones.

I had no clue. The only thing you mentioned that I did was bought aftermarket Mags and a new Buffer spring. It is AMAZING the things you can learn from Group guys

Almost every M16 I ever picked up in the Army, out side of the 75th Ranger Regiment, had worn gas rings. Basic training and school M-16s being the worst offenders. I'm being kind about the 75th; we had new everything and therefore very few maintenance issues. I have no idea if they were checking gas rings, springs, etc.

Machine guns were another area. I don't believe anyone paid any fucking attention to the round count of machine gun barrels. The gunners are supposed to keep a log of rounds fired. It really depended on your armorer. A good armorer would raise hell over m60, M249 or M240G round counts. Good armorers were rare.

Batboy2/75 wrote:

Master_Blaster wrote:

Batboy2/75 wrote:

Master_Blaster wrote:I get what you're saying. I just feel that most folks/ grunts who complain about the M4/ AR don't know what they're talking about when they bitch about it.

Overall I think it's a good weapon. It served me and thousands of other guys very well.

Most don't know that the Army and Marine Corps didn't get their act together on armorer level maintenance well into the 2000s. I though the M-16 was a piece of shit until a delta opperator type gave me some pointers. I immediately bought some buffer springs, extractor spings and gas rings. I also started to number my magazines so i could easily id the bad ones.

I had no clue. The only thing you mentioned that I did was bought aftermarket Mags and a new Buffer spring. It is AMAZING the things you can learn from Group guys

Good armorers were rare.

This!!!!!

More on Russian Ammo

Another issue is Russian ammo is dirty; Very dirty! Remember, the AR-15 was designed to use very clean and fast burning gun powder with a direct impingement gas system. Do not use Russian or Ukrainian ammo for self-defense. Your rifle will quickly become a misshapen club.

The last issue is Russian and Ukrainian ammo is known to have squibs. A squib is a round with a short charge. In many cases a squib round will not exit the barrel. This can lead to a very dangerous situation wear another round is fired and the gun simply blows up; potential death or maiming will result. You will know you have squib when you feel something odd with the rifle recoil and or the rifle does not cycle and chamber another round. Immediately check your barrel if either of these two situations occur.

As a side note. All ammo has a the potntial to have have squib rounds. If it doesn't feel or sound right and or the rifle doesn't cycle anyother round; check the barrel for an obstruction.

If you do get a squib round stuck in the barrel, use a wooden dowel or a brass rod to tap the round out. Do no use a steel rod; you will damage your barrel.