Grandpa's Spells wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if Doughboy was behind this whole thing.
That would be delightful.
Moderator: Dux
Grandpa's Spells wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if Doughboy was behind this whole thing.
Um... nope, never said that.Blaidd Drwg wrote:you think it absurd that we distinguish between accidentally killing someone in a tussle that escalated versus planning, and executing a scheme to take a life for personal gain?
Thought crime? You mean, the mindset and intent of a criminal? The things that differentiate between first and second degree murder... yeah.The point is that at their core, "Hate" legislation targets thought crimes.
seeahill wrote:BD,
I'd like to argue the point but you are right.
On rare occasions, I think you're wrong. The murder of Matthew Shepard in Wyoming is a case in point.
http://www.matthewshepard.org/our-story
absolutely agreed.Blaidd Drwg wrote:seeahill wrote:BD,
I'd like to argue the point but you are right.
On rare occasions, I think you're wrong. The murder of Matthew Shepard in Wyoming is a case in point.
http://www.matthewshepard.org/our-story[/quote
You don;t need legislation to recognize what happened to Sheppard, or Byrd was heinous. Whether the killers ever used the word fag or nigger. We punish actions.
What I said was that "hate crimes" are no more ridiculous than degrees of murder or the difference in manslaughter and murder; you'll not find one sentence of mine that suggests that those distinctions are themselves ridiculous.Blaidd Drwg wrote:You claimed hate crimes and various flavors of homicide were equally ridiculous.
Indeed - and this "clear legal precedent" and these "logical reasons" are what make for the existence of hate crimes legislation.We have clear legal precedent and completely logical reasons for treating accidental homicide differently from premeditated murder.
So that's an admission that it's not about Big Brother's "thought crimes."The fact "hate crimes", like any number of additive charges, must attach to an underlying criminal complaint makes them no less absurd.
You mean like the already existing laws on the books that treat "assault and battery" of a police officer, a husband/wife or a stranger differently?In fact, it makes it more absurd. You already have a charge of, say assault and battery, there is no purpose but to dissuade certain types of motivations (thoughts) for committing said offense as if the offense is not significantly offensive or that certain groups deserve more protection.
There you go, your opposition to hate crimes is ideological - not based on some rational, abstract love of American jurisprudence and tradition and Superman and etc..Hate crime legislation is immoral at its core and arbitrary in its execution.
Mao wrote:Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party
DrDonkeyLove wrote:I haven't paid much attention to "hate crimes". As I understand it most violent crimes are crimes against the victim and the state.
Hate crimes, because they are directed against a member of a protected group, are also crimes against a protected community which the state has decided is an extra bad crime against the state worthy of extra punishment???
The whole thing feels like divisive make the protected group feel better bullshit to me, but I'm particularly ignorant in this area. Feel free to educate me.
Blaidd Drwg wrote:I never said hate crimes were unprecedented.
Stick to the ideological argument, at least it's consistent.Blaidd Drwg wrote:couple hundred years of American jurisprudence and then English Common law before that is on par with a legislative concept drummed up in the last 40 years to address collective racial discomfort?
milosz wrote:Blaidd Drwg wrote:I never said hate crimes were unprecedented.Stick to the ideological argument, at least it's consistent.Blaidd Drwg wrote:couple hundred years of American jurisprudence and then English Common law before that is on par with a legislative concept drummed up in the last 40 years to address collective racial discomfort?
My understanding here is that there are no "protected groups". So if you're stabbed to death by a Pakistani for "being white" it's a hate crime. It's a crime where the motivation is hatred of the group of the victim (ethnic, religious, racial, sexual). So we're all protected as individuals and as members of whatever groups we belong to. Open to correction.DrDonkeyLove wrote:I haven't paid much attention to "hate crimes". As I understand it most violent crimes are crimes against the victim and the state.
Hate crimes, because they are directed against a member of a protected group, are also crimes against a protected community which the state has decided is an extra bad crime against the state worthy of extra punishment???
The whole thing feels like divisive make the protected group feel better bullshit to me, but I'm particularly ignorant in this area. Feel free to educate me.
If you don't like it, get the hell out!Gorbachev wrote:My understanding here is that there are no "protected groups". So if you're stabbed to death by a Pakistani for "being white" it's a hate crime. It's a crime where the motivation is hatred of the group of the victim (ethnic, religious, racial, sexual). So we're all protected as individuals and as members of whatever groups we belong to. Open to correction.DrDonkeyLove wrote:I haven't paid much attention to "hate crimes". As I understand it most violent crimes are crimes against the victim and the state.
Hate crimes, because they are directed against a member of a protected group, are also crimes against a protected community which the state has decided is an extra bad crime against the state worthy of extra punishment???
The whole thing feels like divisive make the protected group feel better bullshit to me, but I'm particularly ignorant in this area. Feel free to educate me.
Uh, he is out.protobuilder wrote:If you don't like it, get the hell out!Gorbachev wrote:My understanding here is that there are no "protected groups". So if you're stabbed to death by a Pakistani for "being white" it's a hate crime. It's a crime where the motivation is hatred of the group of the victim (ethnic, religious, racial, sexual). So we're all protected as individuals and as members of whatever groups we belong to. Open to correction.DrDonkeyLove wrote:I haven't paid much attention to "hate crimes". As I understand it most violent crimes are crimes against the victim and the state.
Hate crimes, because they are directed against a member of a protected group, are also crimes against a protected community which the state has decided is an extra bad crime against the state worthy of extra punishment???
The whole thing feels like divisive make the protected group feel better bullshit to me, but I'm particularly ignorant in this area. Feel free to educate me.
Mao wrote:Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party
My understanding here is that there are no "protected groups". So if you're stabbed to death by a Pakistani for "being white" it's a hate crime. It's a crime where the motivation is hatred of the group of the victim (ethnic, religious, racial, sexual). So we're all protected as individuals and as members of whatever groups we belong to. Open to correction.
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/hate-c ... /id/543969Feds Charge Texas Man With Hate Crime in 'Knockout Game' Attack
Eric Holder's Justice Department has charged a white suburban Houston man with a federal hate crime for sucker-punching a 79-year-old black man in a "knockout game," a violent trend that has been sweeping the nation.
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/hate-c ... /id/543969[/quote]tonkadtx wrote:Eric Holder's Justice Department has charged a white suburban Houston man with a federal hate crime for sucker-punching a 79-year-old black man in a "knockout game," a violent trend that has been sweeping the nation.
I guess I am a complete faggot. BUN SQUEEZES FOR EVERYONE! Show me the statistics of hate crime legislation being applied fairly and unilaterally. It's the same reason I am against the death penalty. I do not believe it is applied fairly based on race, income, politics, etc.Targeting someone for a violent attack based on ethnicity or sexual preference or religion is deserving of special punishment in a civil society. It is an attack on the cohesion of and freedoms in that society. It is an attack on us all.
If you murder someone in a fit of rage or jealousy, or you suffered domestic abuse for years and snapped, then your sentence is likely to reflect that human reality. Likewise, if you chose to go out and harm "a gay / black / Muslim / Jew/ Romany" you deserve particular loathing and are guilty of extremely anti-social, pernicious behaviour. You deserve what you get for that "hate crime". Fucking spot on. You're a complete faggot if you don't agree with me 1,000,000 per cent.
tonkadtx wrote: It's the same reason I am against the death penalty. I do not believe it is applied fairly based on race, income, politics, etc.