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quarantine for returning health professionals who worked with ebola patients seems reasonable to me, but i don't know the science or the law well enough to have any more than an uninformed opinion

Quarantined nurse blasts Gov. Christie as lawyer prepares to fight for her freedom
Kaci Hickox, 33, was the first person snared by the 21-day mandatory quarantine announced by Christie and Gov. Cuomo for anyone returning to New York or New Jersey after treating Ebola victims in West Africa. Civil rights attorney Norman Siegel has signed on to help Hickox sue for her freedom.

She should have the freedom to get on the subway to go to the bowling alley just like everyone else.

However, based on the article:
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/h ... -1.1987584
they could handle the quarantine better. If I've understood the news reports correctly, most people who are potentially infected tend to come through a few international airports that are all major hubs. There seems to be a reasonable risk of interstate contamination. Since the federal government doesn't seem to be taking the lead like they should be, this is probably the right approach.

EDIT: Her employer has done her, New York, and New Jersey, a real disservice. Doctors w/o Borders has enough experience with pandemics that it should know better, and should have coordinated with the states and the feds up front. I notice that there's no mention of segregating her on the flight over in any way either.
http://www.dallasnews.com/ebola/headlin ... antine.ece

I'm generally all for Uncie Sam staying out of my knickers, but there are exceptions - national defense, freeways, and public health issues of this magnitude that require nationwide coordination and standards.

While I can see the line being nebulous, an dcarried to the overt extreme if some caution is not taken, a "reasonable" amount of quarantine for personnel in medical services working in that region is, in my mind, just that - reasonable.

It feels like fear mongering in an election year. Politicians know that it's the end of their career if "something" happens and area overreacting and sacrificing a few people to look good in the public eye. There is no way that they are going to treat soldiers returning from the same part of the world, doing similar jobs with far less training the same way.

A trained professional will not expose their family and friends to the disease if they have any symptoms whatsoever, especially after seeing what it can do up close. Even if it were hopping from person to person via the wind, like politicians seems to believe, fellow passengers on the plane would have already been exposed and should have been isolated as well.

If they want to do something, coordinate the return to the US in advance. Take her vitals for a week before boarding the flight and again when she disembarks. Monitor her upon her return and maybe, just maybe, impose some sort of home-stay isolation.

This will be interesting to see how far this can be pushed though.

Phaedrus wrote:A trained professional will not expose their family and friends to the disease if they have any symptoms whatsoever, especially after seeing what it can do up close.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/24/health/ne ... index.html
Apparently not (another Doctors w/o Borders guy FWIW). The callous sense of entitlement in Hickox is mind blowing, considering what she saw over there.

Turdacious wrote:

Phaedrus wrote:A trained professional will not expose their family and friends to the disease if they have any symptoms whatsoever, especially after seeing what it can do up close.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/24/health/ne ... index.html
Apparently not (another Doctors w/o Borders guy FWIW). The callous sense of entitlement in Hickox is mind blowing, considering what she saw over there.

I knew that was the response and was prepared to say that it demonstrates that one guy was a prick but that doesn't mean that all health care professionals should be locked up.

However, from reading though the timeline, I don't know that is really the situation. Other than not going in for a check when he felt fatigued, it appears that everything he did was when he was asymptomatic. Unless everything known about Ebola is wrong, he didn't place anybody at risk. I realize that people are scared and that it's better to be safe than sorry but still disagree with locking a doctor up in a tent outside a hospital for no other reason than it makes people feel better about their elected officials.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/27/nyreg ... .html?_r=0

Facing fierce resistance from the White House and medical experts to a strict new mandatory quarantine policy, Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo said on Sunday night that medical workers who had contact with Ebola patients in West Africa but did not show symptoms of the disease would be allowed to remain at home and would receive compensation for lost income.

Phaedrus wrote:

Turdacious wrote:

Phaedrus wrote:A trained professional will not expose their family and friends to the disease if they have any symptoms whatsoever, especially after seeing what it can do up close.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/24/health/ne ... index.html
Apparently not (another Doctors w/o Borders guy FWIW). The callous sense of entitlement in Hickox is mind blowing, considering what she saw over there.

I knew that was the response and was prepared to say that it demonstrates that one guy was a prick but that doesn't mean that all health care professionals should be locked up.

However, from reading though the timeline, I don't know that is really the situation. Other than not going in for a check when he felt fatigued, it appears that everything he did was when he was asymptomatic. Unless everything known about Ebola is wrong, he didn't place anybody at risk. I realize that people are scared and that it's better to be safe than sorry but still disagree with locking a doctor up in a tent outside a hospital for no other reason than it makes people feel better about their elected officials.

It avoids panic, which is especially an issue in NYC, because everyone is so cramped together. I'm no expert on ebola or public health, but of this is an overreaction, it seems like a prudent and pretty modest overreaction.

Phaedrus wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/27/nyreg ... .html?_r=0

Facing fierce resistance from the White House and medical experts to a strict new mandatory quarantine policy, Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo said on Sunday night that medical workers who had contact with Ebola patients in West Africa but did not show symptoms of the disease would be allowed to remain at home and would receive compensation for lost income.

Mr. Cuomo’s decision capped a frenzied weekend of behind-the-scenes pleas from administration officials, who urged him and Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey to reconsider the mandatory quarantine they had announced on Friday. Aides to President Obama also asked other governors and mayors to follow a policy based on science, seeking to stem a steady movement toward more stringent measures in recent days at the state level.

Telling governors and mayors that they're behaving irrationally because your administration has mismanaged a crisis is laughable.

Aides to Mr. Cuomo said the notion of a mandatory quarantine had always been considered, and that the plan had been quietly vetted by attorneys and public-health officials.

Neither governor notified the White House.

Sounds like the czar hasn't done any coordination. Maybe it was discussed at some of the meetings he skipped. Does not give me a warm and fuzzy.

http://irongarmx.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=226760

johno wrote:...let's import some Ebola virus-infected folks into the USA. After all, it's only extremely contagious, with a 60-90% mortality rate.

What could go wrong?

A couple US healthcare workers who knew they were treating Ebola have already contracted the disease. Health officials have tried to throw the nurses under the bus for not taking proper precautions, but we can't know whether they violated protocols or not. The disease MAY be more contagious than the experts thought. The experts MAY be underestimating the risks.

Bottom Line: When you're dealing with a deadly, contagious disease, exercise extreme caution. Don't import the disease and quarantine those who have been exposed.

I'm no fan of Obama but the only part of this situation that has been seriously mismanaged by the administration is that they attempted to rely on science and logic when dealing with a populace that is largely driven by fear and rumor.

There have been nine cases of Ebola in the US. The only death was a guy who contracted the disease in Africa and was turned away from the ER in Texas that he initially sought treatment in. Three others are in treatment. Everybody else has recovered. What could the administration have done to push these numbers lower?

Phaedrus wrote:I'm no fan of Obama but the only part of this situation that has been seriously mismanaged by the administration is that they attempted to rely on science and logic when dealing with a populace that is largely driven by fear and rumor.

A lack of coordination between federal agencies and with state agencies, blaming Republicans for cutting funding for Ebola research because you prioritized spending on lesbian obesity, a constantly changing public message, blaming potentially infected people for following CDC advice, and hiring a lobbyist as your Ebola czar are neither scientific nor logical. Oh, and administration's nominee for Surgeon General hasn't gotten enough support from Democratic Senators to be confirmed-- after a year of waiting. Not exactly scientific crisis management.

I think we ought to quarantine the children of anti-vaxers, and we should send their parents to reeducation camps.

I think we should quarantine politicians who pretend that the best way to deal with an epidemic is to violate the Constitutional rights of the only Americans who are actually doing something to fight the epidemic. They are populist cowards who are placing the fears of the uninformed above science and morality.

This Ebola outbreak isn't going to end without western healthcare workers going to Africa, and Ebola's going to continue to be a (mild) threat to the rest of the world until the current flare-up is stamped out. Ignoring the morality of imprisoning innocent people, there's no reason to believe that punishing people for trying to end the epidemic will make anyone safer. Deterring volunteers from fighting the epidemic carries its own risks.

Meanwhile there have already been three deaths from the flu this season, and several kids have died from enterovirus.

Pinky wrote:I think we should quarantine politicians who pretend that the best way to deal with an epidemic is to violate the Constitutional rights of the only Americans who are actually doing something to fight the epidemic. They are populist cowards who are placing the fears of the uninformed above science and morality.

This Ebola outbreak isn't going to end without western healthcare workers going to Africa, and Ebola's going to continue to be a (mild) threat to the rest of the world until the current flare-up is stamped out. Ignoring the morality of imprisoning innocent people, there's no reason to believe that punishing people for trying to end the epidemic will make anyone safer. Deterring volunteers from fighting the epidemic carries its own risks.

Meanwhile there have already been three deaths from the flu this season, and several kids have died from enterovirus.

But, but, but...Obama...lesbians.....Obama!

Phaedrus wrote:I'm no fan of Obama but the only part of this situation that has been seriously mismanaged by the administration is that they attempted to rely on science and logic when dealing with a populace that is largely driven by fear and rumor.

There have been nine cases of Ebola in the US. The only death was a guy who contracted the disease in Africa and was turned away from the ER in Texas that he initially sought treatment in. Three others are in treatment. Everybody else has recovered. What could the administration have done to push these numbers lower?

Two charts: one based on fact and logic, one frequently discredited. Seems impossible for humans to view facts w/o biases.


Re: the populace, I'm in airports most weeks and have seen a total of 2 people wearing surgical masks and they may have had legitimate reasons. I think the largest offenders in the causing of panic in the populace are the media and politicians. The good news is that the Christie/Cuomo quarantine is bipartisan!

Pinky wrote:I think we should quarantine politicians who pretend that the best way to deal with an epidemic is to violate the Constitutional rights of the only Americans who are actually doing something to fight the epidemic. They are populist cowards who are placing the fears of the uninformed above science and morality.

This Ebola outbreak isn't going to end without western healthcare workers going to Africa, and Ebola's going to continue to be a (mild) threat to the rest of the world until the current flare-up is stamped out. Ignoring the morality of imprisoning innocent people, there's no reason to believe that punishing people for trying to end the epidemic will make anyone safer. Deterring volunteers from fighting the epidemic carries its own risks.

Meanwhile there have already been three deaths from the flu this season, and several kids have died from enterovirus.

The right to quarantine is established jurisprudence, and is well established as constitutional at a state and federal level. This isn't the first public health crisis in the US.

Not having a policy of limited quarantine, or quarantine guidance in place is an oversight by the WH-- that could be as simple as requiring a quick daily examination. An equally big concern is that you take nurses and doctors out of circulation because they face too high a risk of infection because of poor protocols-- that's the flip side of poor Ebola protocols.

Turdacious wrote:This isn't the first public health crisis in the US.

This isn't a public health crisis. It's a public ignorance crisis.

There is no precedent for quarantine in cases like this.

Pinky wrote:

Turdacious wrote:This isn't the first public health crisis in the US.

This isn't a public health crisis. It's a public ignorance crisis.

There is no precedent for quarantine in cases like this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_tuberculosis_scare
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_o ... S_outbreak

Both turned out to be much ado about very little.

Turdacious wrote:

Pinky wrote:

Turdacious wrote:This isn't the first public health crisis in the US.

This isn't a public health crisis. It's a public ignorance crisis.

There is no precedent for quarantine in cases like this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_tuberculosis_scare
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_o ... S_outbreak

Both turned out to be much ado about very little.

Thank you for providing two examples in which no one who was not known to be infected with a disease was quarantined in the US.

The Schadenfreude is just delicious. Watching the administration getting fucked over and over again by the Ebola scare is like Christmas in October. The fact that the progressive media attack dogs are off their leashes and biting their masters hands is priceless.

Any of you know-it-all, nothing to-see-here experts want to explain how the two US nurses contracted Ebola?
Since the disease is so difficult to get and the nurses had the resources of modern US medicine at their disposal, and knew they were treating Ebola patients?

johno wrote:Any of you know-it-all, nothing to-see-here experts want to explain how the two US nurses contracted Ebola?
Since the disease is so difficult to get and the nurses had the resources of modern US medicine at their disposal, and knew they were treating Ebola patients?

They fucked up and let fluids get on them.

It also doesn't help that the Administration and the CDC are both incompetent in handling such a small outbreak. One would think the administration would have learned something from the Bush Administration about appointing political hacks to public health and or relief agencies. The fact that the Jackholes in the Obama administration appointed a hack from "Diamond" Joe Biden's staff as the Ebola Czar is all the proof you need that we are not in the best of hands.

nafod wrote:

johno wrote:Any of you know-it-all, nothing to-see-here experts want to explain how the two US nurses contracted Ebola?
Since the disease is so difficult to get and the nurses had the resources of modern US medicine at their disposal, and knew they were treating Ebola patients?

They fucked up and let fluids get on them.

You say this based on evidence? Or blind faith?