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Bram
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Re: Hey there

Post by Bram »

Fat Cat wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:36 pm I dunno, brah. I reject the idea that racial or other prejudices automatically equal hate. Everybody makes generalizations about the "other"--many of them negative--and that's not likely to change based on the way our brains work.
This is a pivot tho. Homeboy baffled is touting the benefits of hate, is there any?

Let's use elitism for a more neutral example of prejudice. Let's say you think you're better than someone because you've got better clothes, or more money, or some other metric. I would say "good qualities" are not congruent with that line of thinking -- things like humility, kindness, compassion, empathy, etc. I would say that "bad qualities" are -- arrogance, ignorance, lack of empathy.

Now whether you think you should strive to be "good" or "bad" is up to you, your goals, and your worldview.

I really don't see ANY benefits from being "bad" -- merely (in me) they are weaknesses of one kind or another.
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newguy
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Re: Hey there

Post by newguy »

Bram.... you are in great shape. You surf almost every day. And you bang multiple hot chicks a year.

Hate and anger are not the game you need to play.

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Fat Cat
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Re: Hey there

Post by Fat Cat »

Bram wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:50 pm
Fat Cat wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:36 pm I dunno, brah. I reject the idea that racial or other prejudices automatically equal hate. Everybody makes generalizations about the "other"--many of them negative--and that's not likely to change based on the way our brains work.
This is a pivot tho. Homeboy baffled is touting the benefits of hate, is there any?

Let's use elitism for a more neutral example of prejudice. Let's say you think you're better than someone because you've got better clothes, or more money, or some other metric. I would say "good qualities" are not congruent with that line of thinking -- things like humility, kindness, compassion, empathy, etc. I would say that "bad qualities" are -- arrogance, ignorance, lack of empathy.

Now whether you think you should strive to be "good" or "bad" is up to you, your goals, and your worldview.

I really don't see ANY benefits from being "bad" -- merely (in me) they are weaknesses of one kind or another.
Without going into a full length whitepaper, in my view, human emotions are an evolved adaptation to the environment. That means the full gambit of human emotions has some purpose, imparts some evolutionary advantage, or it wouldn't be there. Hate is, for lack of a better term, an "extreme" emotion, and by consequence, one that should be saved for extreme context. But if someone is threatening the safety of a loved one or an innocent, having enough hate in your body to drive you to do what needs to be done (murda murda) could be seen as a positive, or at worst, a necessary evil. And it's worth pointing out that, at least in that instance, your hate would be the dark shadow cast by your love: it's eternal concomitant.
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Bram
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Re: Hey there

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Fat Cat wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:27 am
Without going into a full length whitepaper, in my view, human emotions are an evolved adaptation to the environment. That means the full gambit of human emotions has some purpose, imparts some evolutionary advantage, or it wouldn't be there. Hate is, for lack of a better term, an "extreme" emotion, and by consequence, one that should be saved for extreme context. But if someone is threatening the safety of a loved one or an innocent, having enough hate in your body to drive you to do what needs to be done (murda murda) could be seen as a positive, or at worst, a necessary evil. And it's worth pointing out that, at least in that instance, your hate would be the dark shadow cast by your love: it's eternal concomitant.
It does seem inseparable.

And although I don’t grasp Zen or Taoism, I think they speak truth. And duality is a common theme in both — that if you have love, you have to also have hate.

Transcending thoughts of good or bad seems to be on the money for a life of harmony — and not what I’m doing here.

Da struggle.
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Bram
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Re: Hey there

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Thanks newguy :)

I know life is capricious. Trying to stay grateful :heart:

I guess I get lost in this shit, because I look at philosophy (or our worldviews) as an adjunct to physical fitness....how do you be spiritually and mentally healthy and vigorous?

I don’t think hate and anger are the answer, but they are bound to love and peace.

If I knew how to behave, I wouldn’t toss these questions around, but I do so hoping it pinballs into a helpful direction.
“If it won't matter in a year, don't spend more than a day stressing about it."

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Re: Hey there

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Bram wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:04 pm
Fat Cat wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:27 am
Without going into a full length whitepaper, in my view, human emotions are an evolved adaptation to the environment. That means the full gambit of human emotions has some purpose, imparts some evolutionary advantage, or it wouldn't be there. Hate is, for lack of a better term, an "extreme" emotion, and by consequence, one that should be saved for extreme context. But if someone is threatening the safety of a loved one or an innocent, having enough hate in your body to drive you to do what needs to be done (murda murda) could be seen as a positive, or at worst, a necessary evil. And it's worth pointing out that, at least in that instance, your hate would be the dark shadow cast by your love: it's eternal concomitant.
It does seem inseparable.

And although I don’t grasp Zen or Taoism, I think they speak truth. And duality is a common theme in both — that if you have love, you have to also have hate.

Transcending thoughts of good or bad seems to be on the money for a life of harmony — and not what I’m doing here.

Da struggle.

I am not sure this is accurate. For many years I thought it was. But I am beginning to think it's wrong.

First - I think that we in the west really have no idea what Zen or Taoism is really about. And I don't even mean on the pop culture level. I think there is a cultural and language barrier that is very hard to surmount and what we get is NOT what is being said. I cannot say for any certainty that what we think "transcending thoughts" might mean is what Zen or whatever is trying to say.

Second - It's possible that these traditions are wrong. Maybe they mean what we think they might mean. Transcending is the name of the game. But they could very well be full of shit. Transcending could very well be a bad goal that doesn't lead to happiness. Maybe it is fully embracing the feelings of the moment. Maybe it is something else. Maybe it's just banging really hot people.

Studying the lives of the spiritual people, it's never what we thought it was. These zen monks were drunk half the time, they had fights and politics and ran for their lives and got pissed. All of it. The Catholic saints were lunatics. And so on and so on.

Seeking harmony might be like seeking a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.

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Re: Hey there

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Seeking harmony all the time is like seeking a germ-free environment all the time. It disrupts the antifragile characteristics of our organism that thrive and build themselves through conflict. I'm not saying everything needs to be a battle, but I always get the feeling that some people are just pussies that use the "peace and love" angle to avoid conflict.

And LMAO at thinking that the Japanese or Chinese have much to offer when it comes to living peacefully and harmoniously. History 101 says otherwise.
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Bram
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Re: Hey there

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newguy wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:44 pm
Bram wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:04 pm
Transcending thoughts of good or bad seems to be on the money for a life of harmony — and not what I’m doing here.

Da struggle.
I am not sure this is accurate. For many years I thought it was. But I am beginning to think it's wrong.

First - I think that we in the west really have no idea what Zen or Taoism is really about. And I don't even mean on the pop culture level. I think there is a cultural and language barrier that is very hard to surmount and what we get is NOT what is being said. I cannot say for any certainty that what we think "transcending thoughts" might mean is what Zen or whatever is trying to say.

Second - It's possible that these traditions are wrong. Maybe they mean what we think they might mean. Transcending is the name of the game. But they could very well be full of shit. Transcending could very well be a bad goal that doesn't lead to happiness. Maybe it is fully embracing the feelings of the moment. Maybe it is something else. Maybe it's just banging really hot people.

Studying the lives of the spiritual people, it's never what we thought it was. These zen monks were drunk half the time, they had fights and politics and ran for their lives and got pissed. All of it. The Catholic saints were lunatics. And so on and so on.

Seeking harmony might be like seeking a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.
Well, at the simplest level, I think Zen and the concept of "being one with the Tao" are just other ways to say what Westerners call "being in the Zone" -- which could happen in athletics, having a good date with a sexy person, stilling your thoughts in mediation.

I think the idea of "being in the Zone" more often is a reasonable goal for anyone. Constantly there is a goal that is astronomically difficult and probably you should just wash your dishes and get some sleep in the meantime.

And yes, many spiritual figures appear to be asshats to one degree or another -- pedophiles, frauds, financially exploitative, etc.
“If it won't matter in a year, don't spend more than a day stressing about it."

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Re: Hey there

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Fat Cat wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:20 pm Seeking harmony all the time is like seeking a germ-free environment all the time. It disrupts the antifragile characteristics of our organism that thrive and build themselves through conflict. I'm not saying everything needs to be a battle, but I always get the feeling that some people are just pussies that use the "peace and love" angle to avoid conflict.

And LMAO at thinking that the Japanese or Chinese have much to offer when it comes to living peacefully and harmoniously. History 101 says otherwise.
Well, harmony may be kicking someone in the balls when they deserve it :)

With thousands of years of history and billions of people, China and Japan both have individuals worth listening to. A country is not just it's ruling class. And to bring it full-circle, that's my problem with racism/elitism/etc. Awesome people are born into every corner of the globe and every walk of life. Better to treat people with kindness and respect as a general rule, and write off individuals for being shit-heads..
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Re: Hey there

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Well goddamn, the Buxman stopped by to see how the riff-raff, miscreants are doing! Hey you dirty bitch are you finally taking "regular" showers now like the rest of us?!? Remember guys and gals, this fucker decided forever ago to just occasionally lightly rinse his quasimodo-shaped body with tepid water because of teh chemicals. Ah hahahahaha!! Matt, I'm just fuckin' with you broheim...nice to see you back! What kind of brainiac shit are you working on?

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Re: Hey there

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Racism is stupid. There is nothing natural about it. It is a human construct and it is a deliberate restrictive construct. It is a learned behavior passed down through culture. If you take a group of toddlers they will all play together. They do not divide themselves into racial groups. They will start to divide into gender oriented groups first. Racially divided groups will not happen until much later, after they have had time to properly absorb the racial biases built into their culture.

So Bram, I agree with you that learning to unlearn the racist biases that we are exposed to is what we should be doing. First, because in general trying to live your life honestly and paying attention to what really is, is a path to a more real happiness. Secondly, because by dropping our learned bias and racism we can live a more full and rich life.

I appreciate the path you are walking as a human. Trying to live a full life, with more happiness than not, being able to place the challenges in their proper perspective, etc is worthwhile. I think it is at least.

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Re: Hey there

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Bram wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:08 am
newguy wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:44 pm
Bram wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:04 pm
Transcending thoughts of good or bad seems to be on the money for a life of harmony — and not what I’m doing here.

Da struggle.
I am not sure this is accurate. For many years I thought it was. But I am beginning to think it's wrong.

First - I think that we in the west really have no idea what Zen or Taoism is really about. And I don't even mean on the pop culture level. I think there is a cultural and language barrier that is very hard to surmount and what we get is NOT what is being said. I cannot say for any certainty that what we think "transcending thoughts" might mean is what Zen or whatever is trying to say.

Second - It's possible that these traditions are wrong. Maybe they mean what we think they might mean. Transcending is the name of the game. But they could very well be full of shit. Transcending could very well be a bad goal that doesn't lead to happiness. Maybe it is fully embracing the feelings of the moment. Maybe it is something else. Maybe it's just banging really hot people.

Studying the lives of the spiritual people, it's never what we thought it was. These zen monks were drunk half the time, they had fights and politics and ran for their lives and got pissed. All of it. The Catholic saints were lunatics. And so on and so on.

Seeking harmony might be like seeking a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.
Well, at the simplest level, I think Zen and the concept of "being one with the Tao" are just other ways to say what Westerners call "being in the Zone" -- which could happen in athletics, having a good date with a sexy person, stilling your thoughts in mediation.

I think the idea of "being in the Zone" more often is a reasonable goal for anyone. Constantly there is a goal that is astronomically difficult and probably you should just wash your dishes and get some sleep in the meantime.

And yes, many spiritual figures appear to be asshats to one degree or another -- pedophiles, frauds, financially exploitative, etc.
Yeah. There is definitely something going on there. Too many cultures and people have expressed the idea that you can achieve more "happiness" or "peace" or enlightenment or whatever it is by slowing down, seeing what is, etc. Living with the truth of the moment or whatever it is.

If you haven't, you should look at some of Pete Ralstons things. They can be dense. They can be confusing. But they are writings on this stuff rooted in Western/English culture.

I look at less as being in a zone. I look at it as trying to be as honestly present as possible. What is going on at the moment. What am I thinking. What am I feeling. Am I right? Am I sure I am right?

I'm angry at my girlfriend. But am I angry at my girlfriend? Am I hungry? Okay. I am angry. Why?

I'm at work. What am I doing. Am I present? Am I in this moment or am I in the past.....

Those sorts of things.

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Bram
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Re: Hey there

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Would you rather be the person that puts somebody down or the person that stands up for somebody else?

Thanks for the kind words and the Pete Ralson rec, newguy :) To the pursuit of good things :drinkers: :rock:
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Re: Hey there

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This thread is proof of the toll xenoestrogens are taking on our health.
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Re: Hey there

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Fat Cat wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:35 pm This thread is proof of the toll xenoestrogens are taking on our health.
Standing up to people is generally scarier than bullying them.

Bullies usually are choosing the weak to pick on.
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Re: Hey there

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Fat Cat wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:35 pm This thread is proof of the toll xenoestrogens are taking on our health.
Should I make a thread about he gypsies spread disease and are subhuman?
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Re: Hey there

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Bram wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:09 am
Fat Cat wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:35 pm This thread is proof of the toll xenoestrogens are taking on our health.
Standing up to people is generally scarier than bullying them.

Bullies usually are choosing the weak to pick on.
Did you have brothers and sisters growing up? Because that's an only child's line of thinking. Everyone is both bully and bullied in their life. That's my point. To give that up, just like trying to artificially force yourself to give up your natural in-group preference, is fake and gay. The very opposite of being genuine and authentic.
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Re: Hey there

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baffled wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:23 am
Fat Cat wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:35 pm This thread is proof of the toll xenoestrogens are taking on our health.
Should I make a thread about he gypsies spread disease and are subhuman?
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Re: Hey there

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Fat Cat wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:24 am
baffled wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:23 am
Fat Cat wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:35 pm This thread is proof of the toll xenoestrogens are taking on our health.
Should I make a thread about he gypsies spread disease and are subhuman?
Image
That's the kind of energy this place needs.

Not this kumbaya, love thy neighbor faggotry that's taken over this thread.
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Bram
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Re: Hey there

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Fat Cat wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:23 am
Did you have brothers and sisters growing up? Because that's an only child's line of thinking. Everyone is both bully and bullied in their life. That's my point. To give that up, just like trying to artificially force yourself to give up your natural in-group preference, is fake and gay. The very opposite of being genuine and authentic.
Correct guess: only child. Grew up short (until 10th grade), skinny, weak (until Junior year of college), glasses (1st grade on), loved books and video games, dressed like a dork, bad at sports, generally awkward. I got to wade through bullying until college. Experiencing feeling humiliated and powerless did not make me want to return the favor to others.

The times in my life where I've hurt someone's feelings through my actions makes me feel extremely shitty. I still do it from time to time, because well, sometimes I suck.
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Bram
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Re: Hey there

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baffled wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:41 am
That's the kind of energy this place needs.
I just look at it as balance. Free speech goes both ways. You can say hateful shit, and you can argue against it.
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