America, please explain.....

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

.........man, you know you're old school IG when you know who Monte is.

[seeahill]

Monte did some cool paintings he posted here. One was a tribute to Betty Page. I recall he was sorta estranged from his native American friends and said the Marines were his true family.

[Andy83]

He started painting nudes of Andy and Seeahill together. Didn't buy much firewater, if you know what i mean

Wrong.. He was raised on the rez where they respect elders and cherish their wisdom.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

He's Apache, right?

[Andy83]

I think he is from New Mexico.
There are 22 Indian tribes in New Mexico - nineteen Pueblos, two Apache tribes (the Jicarilla Apache Nation and the Mescalero Apache Tribe), and the Navajo Nation, and a considerable urban Indian population which is also served by the Indian Affairs Department.

Pueblo or Apache. Not sure.

[baffled]

Monte did some cool paintings he posted here. One was a tribute to Betty Page. I recall he was sorta estranged from his native American friends and said the Marines were his true family.

Didn't he also have, and survive, a massive heart attack in his early 30's? I remember him being around a couple years ago.

[Batboy2/75]

[
First, I'm a big supporter of legal immigration from all over the world but oppose the open borders crowd. Also, I agree 100% about the employers. Our touchy feely tech overlords have tons of STEM trained Americans to meet their employment needs but they are trying to drastically expand H-1B visas to lower personnel costs which is simply a modern robber baron move at the expense of Americans.

I'm hardly 'touchy feely' by anyone's standards, but you're off on this one, Donk.

You show me where we have trained Americans in IT who are sitting at home due to H1B visa holders taking their jobs. They do not exist. H1B's aren't taking your vanilla network admin/help desk spots; they're software developers, database developers/admins, and the like. Also, in my experience, H1's who work towards being I-140 approved and ultimately get their EAD/Green Card work the American dream far better and harder than most Americans ever imagine doing. They tend to get fairly Americanized in the sense that they never force feed their ways on anyone (I've eaten more than a few bacon cheeseburgers having lunch with Indians), they buy homes in good school districts, pay taxes and all that jazz. The cost for an employer to hold an H1B visa and then go through the hoops of GC processing is in the vicinity of $25k-$30k spread out over a couple of years, so it's not exactly a bargain. Now utilizing H1's for staff augmentation is another matter, but still, we do not have enough qualified Americans to fill those jobs....not even close.

Then let the market fix it. Sorry, but immigration depresses wages. The US labor market should first benefit Americans. Let the wages of IT professional rise and one or both of two things will happen (1) Americans will become interested in those jobs and fill them (2) if not enough Americans fill those jobs, the jobs will go over sees and benefit other countries. We live a modern world. An It professional can work anywhere he or she has a decent internet connection.

[Batboy2/75]

He's Apache, right?

I thought he was a Navajo.

[johno]

I'm pretty sure Monts was Navajo. Definitely not Apache.

[Mickey O'neil]

I was thinking about Monte the other day for some reason. I think I saw a painting that reminded me of his stuff. I actually saved images of a few of his paintings that he posted here. Very cool stuff.

[Turdacious]

I was thinking about Monte the other day for some reason. I think I saw a painting that reminded me of his stuff. I actually saved images of a few of his paintings that he posted here. Very cool stuff.

Post em if you can. I miss Monts.

[Sangoma]

Sen. Jay Billington Bulworth: All we need is a voluntary, free-spirited, open-ended program of procreative racial deconstruction. Everybody just gotta keep fuckin' everybody 'til they're all the same color.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

[
First, I'm a big supporter of legal immigration from all over the world but oppose the open borders crowd. Also, I agree 100% about the employers. Our touchy feely tech overlords have tons of STEM trained Americans to meet their employment needs but they are trying to drastically expand H-1B visas to lower personnel costs which is simply a modern robber baron move at the expense of Americans.

I'm hardly 'touchy feely' by anyone's standards, but you're off on this one, Donk.

You show me where we have trained Americans in IT who are sitting at home due to H1B visa holders taking their jobs. They do not exist. H1B's aren't taking your vanilla network admin/help desk spots; they're software developers, database developers/admins, and the like. Also, in my experience, H1's who work towards being I-140 approved and ultimately get their EAD/Green Card work the American dream far better and harder than most Americans ever imagine doing. They tend to get fairly Americanized in the sense that they never force feed their ways on anyone (I've eaten more than a few bacon cheeseburgers having lunch with Indians), they buy homes in good school districts, pay taxes and all that jazz. The cost for an employer to hold an H1B visa and then go through the hoops of GC processing is in the vicinity of $25k-$30k spread out over a couple of years, so it's not exactly a bargain. Now utilizing H1's for staff augmentation is another matter, but still, we do not have enough qualified Americans to fill those jobs....not even close.

Then let the market fix it. Sorry, but immigration depresses wages. The US labor market should first benefit Americans. Let the wages of IT professional rise and one or both of two things will happen (1) Americans will become interested in those jobs and fill them (2) if not enough Americans fill those jobs, the jobs will go over sees and benefit other countries. We live a modern world. An It professional can work anywhere he or she has a decent internet connection.

I placed an H1B contractor here in MN a few years ago to do the work of 3 Swiss IT resources being RIF'd due to cost and I don't recall the exact dollar amount, but it was a savings to the company of around $500/hr, USD to have that one H1B working here in the US instead of those 3 guys/gals in Switzerland. It just so happened I found an Indian guy who was great at .NET development, was willing to do legacy work, a shit ton of documentation that was absent, and was fluent (spoken/written) in English, German and I forget what else. So in terms of IT talent, it's a global concern, not only a US concern. With that said, in the case of IT (sticking to what I know), no way can we Americans fill the jobs to get the work done that needs to be done today (not even remotely close). We can't do it in 10 years even if we went balls to the wall on it today. 20 years? Probably. At the level of getting shit done, there is a laundry list of problems with letting the jobs go overseas vs. allowing H1B's to be onsite--first and foremost is quality control. A good phone line and fast internet pipe doesn't cut it as enough.

As an aside, I happen to know that Indian guy I referenced is still working/billing with the same client, in the same role.

[Grandpa's Spells]

With that said, in the case of IT (sticking to what I know), no way can we Americans fill the jobs to get the work done that needs to be done today (not even remotely close).

Ehhhh. I was on the other side of this in the late 90's and you had a lot of clowns climbing pretty fast and doing profitable work. The truth is the barrier to entry on IT is incredibly low. You don't need college and you don't need to be super-sharp at all. Let wages skyrocket and people will route their careers in that direction.

It's not like you need super-developers next year. Pay more, the existing crop will move up and beginners will backfill the the bottom of the market.

"We don't have enough talent" always seems to translate to: "I don't want to pay that much." Even the lowest level tech work ought to be as valuable as hiring an HVAC guy.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

With that said, in the case of IT (sticking to what I know), no way can we Americans fill the jobs to get the work done that needs to be done today (not even remotely close).

Ehhhh. I was on the other side of this in the late 90's and you had a lot of clowns climbing pretty fast and doing profitable work. The truth is the barrier to entry on IT is incredibly low. You don't need college and you don't need to be super-sharp at all. Let wages skyrocket and people will route their careers in that direction.

It's not like you need super-developers next year. Pay more, the existing crop will move up and beginners will backfill the the bottom of the market.

"We don't have enough talent" always seems to translate to: "I don't want to pay that much." Even the lowest level tech work ought to be as valuable as hiring an HVAC guy.

The thing is, the good old lily white American developers (and any other developer who is not on an H1B with even barely passable soft skills with decent technical chops) has a job....no, wait, has their pick of jobs and is paid pretty damned well. No one is staying home because the money isn't there in software engineering. Not a single one.

The barrier to entry to IT is indeed very low in terms of education, but don't confuse that with lack of 'sharpness'....I'm not talking help desk or Geek Squad (where your "existing crop" point does hold water, IMO). But higher level IT, NFW.

[Grandpa's Spells]

The thing is, the good old lily white American developers (and any other developer who is not on an H1B with even barely passable soft skills with decent technical chops) has a job....no, wait, has their pick of jobs and is paid pretty damned well. No one is staying home because the money isn't there in software engineering. Not a single one.

I'm not sure the idea of "They make enough" jibes with how incentives work. Pay more and more smart people will forego other higher-income careers in favor of development. That will take longer, but H1B's slow the process.

My info may be dated, but I wasn't surprised to hear about attempts to depress wages in Silicon Valley.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/ ... 8Z20140424

All that said, I think brain-draining India and other countries is generally a great idea. I know some very sharp Indian guys who came here for MBA work and the plan was to head back there later. Not so much the plan any more.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

I'm not sure the idea of "They make enough" jibes with how incentives work. Pay more and more smart people will forego other higher-income careers in favor of development. That will take longer, but H1B's slow the process.

You're taking junior/entry level above. I'm talking here and now needs and while we sorely lack in quantity for both levels of developers in the US, H1B's are critical to providing software engineering expertise in our country and like I said, we'd be a good 20 years away from making them a non-necessity if we started today. Plus, luring people into software development because of the buckets of $$$ isn't really an issue as developers are always near the top of the compensation lists that you can find in any magazine or newspaper.

Next, people who are geeky, geek their way into IT, there are also plenty who want to be in IT but wash out because they don't have the math skills for software engineering degrees from good schools....and that doesn't come from me but from senior level Joe developers/architects I know.

Lastly, it is very rare for people to leave software engineering in this day and age and if they do, they go to the functional side to serve a vision of being an executive and making buckets of $$$$ or, sales, if they have that aptitude and want to make buckets of $$$$$.

[Mickey O'neil]

I believe they are on my external hard drive at work. I'll try to post them tomorrow. Yeah, Monts is good people.

I was thinking about Monte the other day for some reason. I think I saw a painting that reminded me of his stuff. I actually saved images of a few of his paintings that he posted here. Very cool stuff.

Post em if you can. I miss Monts.

[Mickey O'neil]

I thought I had more than this but I could only find these two. If I find more I will post them.

MedicineMan-print_Monts.jpg (225.38 KiB) Viewed 2735 times

[Mickey O'neil]

I found one more.

Irony-Print_Monts.jpg (383.75 KiB) Viewed 2733 times