Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Topics without replies are pruned every 365 days. Not moderated.

Moderator: Dux


Topic author
TerryB
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 9697
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:17 pm

Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by TerryB »

From Peggy Noonan:
The air has been full of 10th-anniversary Iraq war retrospectives. One that caught my eye was a smart piece by Tom Curry, national affairs writer for NBC News, who wrote of one element of the story, the war's impact on the Republican party: "The conflict not only transformed" the GOP, "but all of American politics."

It has, but it's an unfinished transformation.

Did the Iraq war hurt the GOP? Yes. The war, and the crash of '08, half killed it. It's still digging out, and whether it can succeed is an open question.

Here, offered in a spirit of open debate, is what the war did to the GOP:

• It ruined the party's hard-earned reputation for foreign-affairs probity. They started a war and didn't win it. It was longer and costlier by every measure than the Bush administration said it would be. Before Iraq, the GOP's primary calling card was that it was the party you could trust in foreign affairs. For half a century, throughout the Cold War, they were serious about the Soviet Union, its moves, feints and threats. Republicans were not ambivalent about the need for and uses of American power, as the Democrats were in the 1970s and 1980s, but neither were they wild. After Iraq it was the Republicans who seemed at best the party of historical romantics or, alternatively, the worst kind of cynic, which is an incompetent one. Iraq marked a departure in mood and tone from past conservatism.

Enlarge Image

CloseDavid Gothard
• It muddied up the meaning of conservatism and bloodied up its reputation. No Burkean prudence or respect for reality was evident. Ronald Reagan hated the Soviet occupation of the Warsaw Pact countries—really, hated the oppression and violence. He said it, named it, and forced the Soviets to defend it. He did not, however, invade Eastern Europe to liberate it. He used military power sparingly. He didn't think the right or lucky thing would necessarily happen. His big dream was a nuclear-free world, which he pursued daringly but peacefully.

• It ended the Republican political ascendance that had begun in 1980. This has had untold consequences, and not only in foreign affairs. And that ascendance was hard-earned. By 2006 Republicans had lost the House, by 2008 the presidency. Curry quotes National Review's Ramesh Ponnuru at a recent debate at the American Enterprise Institute: "You could make the argument that the beginning of the end of Republican dominance in Washington was the Iraq War, at least a stage of the Iraq War, 2005-06." In 2008 a solid majority of voters said they disapproved of the war. Three-quarters of them voted for Barack Obama.

• It undermined respect for Republican economic stewardship. War is costly. No one quite knows or will probably ever know the exact financial cost of Iraq and Afghanistan, which is interesting in itself. Some estimates put it at $1 trillion, some $2 trillion. Mr. Curry cites a Congressional Budget Office report saying the Iraq operation had cost $767 billion as of January 2012. Whatever the number, it added to deficits and debt, and along with the Bush administration's domestic spending helped erode the Republican Party's reputation for sobriety in fiscal affairs.

• It quashed debate within the Republican Party. Political parties are political; politics is about a fight. The fight takes place at the polls and in debate. But the high stakes and high drama of the wars—and the sense within the Bush White House that it was fighting for our very life after 9/11—stoked an atmosphere in which doubters and critics were dismissed as weak, unpatriotic, disloyal. The GOP—from top, the Washington establishment, to bottom, the base—was left festering, confused and, as the years passed, lashing out. A conservative movement that had prided itself, in the 1970s and 1980s, on its intellectualism—"Of a sudden, the Republican Party is the party of ideas," marveled New York's Democratic senator Pat Moynihan in 1979—seemed no longer capable of an honest argument. Free of internal criticism, national candidates looked daffy and reflexively aggressive—John McCain sang "Bomb, Bomb Iran"—and left the party looking that way, too.

• It killed what remained of the Washington Republican establishment. This was not entirely a loss, to say the least. But establishments exist for a reason: They're supposed to function as The Elders, and sometimes they're actually wise. During Iraq they dummied up—criticizing might be bad for the lobbying firm. It removed what credibility the establishment had. And they know it.
"Know that! & Know it deep you fucking loser!"

Image

User avatar

DARTH
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 8427
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:42 pm

Re: Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by DARTH »

Oh Fuck her!

After this commie nightmare, they could put a dog up and he could win IF the elections are not rigged.


Proto's going to go balistic but it might take some violence to right things on all sides. The GOP has issues but so does the DNC, difference is much of the media serves the DNC so you hear more about GOP infighting and issues.

Rand Paul motherfuckers! Sure he's not the Hawk I would want but he'd be good for the country overall, we need a Constitutionalist and he'd smack any country or group that fucked with us.




"God forbid we tell the savages to go fuck themselves." Batboy

User avatar

WildGorillaMan
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 9951
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:01 pm

Re: Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by WildGorillaMan »

Never mind Iraq, can the GOP recover from its obsession with rape?
Image
You'll Hurt Your Back

basically I'm Raoul Duke trying to fit into a Philip K. Dick movie remake.

User avatar

nafod
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 12781
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Looking in your window

Re: Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by nafod »

The senior executive decision-making (i.e., Republican decision making) regarding the invasion of Iraq was one big monumental fuck-up of monumentally epic proportions. It pains me to say that. Monu-fucking-mental incompetence.

What pisses me off most was the complete, utter lack of planning for the post-war period. My spidey sense was tangling even back then. I'm thinking, surely we've got this post-war shit all figured out, tons of connections to the Iraq major non-Baathists, moderately apolitical military leaders, bean-counters, etc. The fact that they threw Bremer in there just a month or so after the invasion, when he hadn't spent what should have been years prepping for the job, tells me what a last-minute shoot from the hip goat-fuck it was. Major fubar followed.

I know for a fact we spent years planning to take Saddam down. That we didn't give the post-invasion effort as much due diligence, or didn't use the people who had done the planning, or didn't listened to the experts, was a mega-blunder that resulted in more than a few friends of mine getting killed, all of them well after the initial invasion.

So frankly, whenever I hear Repub criticism about anything foreign policy related, I immediately think, "Aren't you the guys that said Iraq would be a walk in the park?"
Don’t believe everything you think.

User avatar

Bob Wildes
Top
Posts: 1831
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:22 pm
Location: Heart Of Darkness

Re: Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by Bob Wildes »

nafod wrote:The senior executive decision-making (i.e., Republican decision making) regarding the invasion of Iraq was one big monumental fuck-up of monumentally epic proportions. It pains me to say that. Monu-fucking-mental incompetence.

What pisses me off most was the complete, utter lack of planning for the post-war period. My spidey sense was tangling even back then. I'm thinking, surely we've got this post-war shit all figured out, tons of connections to the Iraq major non-Baathists, moderately apolitical military leaders, bean-counters, etc. The fact that they threw Bremer in there just a month or so after the invasion, when he hadn't spent what should have been years prepping for the job, tells me what a last-minute shoot from the hip goat-fuck it was. Major fubar followed.

I know for a fact we spent years planning to take Saddam down. That we didn't give the post-invasion effort as much due diligence, or didn't use the people who had done the planning, or didn't listened to the experts, was a mega-blunder that resulted in more than a few friends of mine getting killed, all of them well after the initial invasion.

So frankly, whenever I hear Repub criticism about anything foreign policy related, I immediately think, "Aren't you the guys that said Iraq would be a walk in the park?"

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Remember the Iraqi exile, Challabi or something similar. He was featured on 60 minutes and that crew seemed to gush
with praise for him. Some people say that he sold the Bush Administration on the idea that the Iraqi people were just waiting for a change from Saddam Hussein and that they would literally throw flowers at the US troops if they disposed him.
"Tell A.P. Hill he must come up."


Andy83
Sgt. Major
Posts: 2650
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:07 am

Re: Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by Andy83 »

Where and how did Syria get WMDs? Hmmm........
Obama's narcissism and arrogance is only superseded by his naivete and stupidity.


Topic author
TerryB
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 9697
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:17 pm

Re: Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by TerryB »

Andy79 wrote:Where and how did Syria get WMDs? Hmmm........
From their Iranian sponsors?
"Know that! & Know it deep you fucking loser!"

Image


tzg
Gunny
Posts: 726
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:34 pm

Re: Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by tzg »

Bob Wildes wrote: Remember the Iraqi exile, Challabi or something similar. He was featured on 60 minutes and that crew seemed to gush
with praise for him. Some people say that he sold the Bush Administration on the idea that the Iraqi people were just waiting for a change from Saddam Hussein and that they would literally throw flowers at the US troops if they disposed him.
Even as, apparently, the intelligence community was saying Chalabi was bullshit. The administration chose to ignore them and run with it.


tzg
Gunny
Posts: 726
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:34 pm

Re: Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by tzg »

Honestly, and I mean this, America's already forgotten. In fact, if you ask people on the street, a lot still think there were WMDs, more think Iraq was a good idea. I think the latest survey was that 42% thought Iraq was a good idea. People have short memories and they forget easily. There was a massive propaganda buildup to the war and there hasn't been one to condemn it, so it's dropped off the radar. We're too hammered by manufactured economic problems to hate on the GOP for Iraq.

The GOP's problem is somewhere else.

Anyway, the thing that keeps me wondering is how much of our current problem with Iran and how much of Iran's "twitchiness" has to do with the fact that we've demonstrated to them that we're willing to invade a nation on demonstrably false premises and get into an abysmal quagmire just because we want to and they are quite obviously toward the top of the current list?


Blaidd Drwg
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 19098
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:39 pm

Re: Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by Blaidd Drwg »

Image
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

User avatar

nafod
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 12781
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Looking in your window

Re: Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by nafod »

tzg wrote:Anyway, the thing that keeps me wondering is how much of our current problem with Iran and how much of Iran's "twitchiness" has to do with the fact that we've demonstrated to them that we're willing to invade a nation on demonstrably false premises and get into an abysmal quagmire just because we want to and they are quite obviously toward the top of the current list?
I've always thought the first thing Obama should have done when elected was to send the Mullahs, Assad, the NORKs, etc. a card with a picture of Saddam hanging from a rope and the handwritten note "Thinking of you" on the inside. Just to keep them on their toes.

A lot of wars have been fought because other folks thought we wouldn't fight. The Korean War and the first Gulf War are cases in point. Best to not squander our asskicking cred while we have it.
Don’t believe everything you think.


Andy83
Sgt. Major
Posts: 2650
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:07 am

Re: Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by Andy83 »

protobuilder wrote:
Andy79 wrote:Where and how did Syria get WMDs? Hmmm........
From their Iranian sponsors?
Nope. Guess again.
Obama's narcissism and arrogance is only superseded by his naivete and stupidity.


Topic author
TerryB
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 9697
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:17 pm

Re: Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by TerryB »

Whether invading Iraq is a "good idea" in general wont be clear for decades to come.

Whether it has been a "good idea" for the GOP politically is much more clear.
"Know that! & Know it deep you fucking loser!"

Image


Topic author
TerryB
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 9697
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:17 pm

Re: Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by TerryB »

Andy79 wrote:
protobuilder wrote:
Andy79 wrote:Where and how did Syria get WMDs? Hmmm........
From their Iranian sponsors?
Nope. Guess again.
I think I'll let you guess this time.
"Know that! & Know it deep you fucking loser!"

Image

User avatar

DrDonkeyLove
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 8034
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:04 am
Location: Deep in a well

Re: Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by DrDonkeyLove »

Never underestimate the short attention spans of the Amurrikan people and the ability of the other party to fuck up just as monumentally. Let's recall Johnson and Vietnam.
Mao wrote:Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party

User avatar

kreator
Top
Posts: 1287
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:52 am

Re: Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by kreator »

Well, these people seemed to recover fine from voting for the Iraq war:

Biden (DE)
Clinton (NY)
Dodd (CT)
Feinstein (CA)
Kerry (MA)
Lieberman (CT)
Reid (NV)
Edwards (NC)
Schumer (NY)


Andy83
Sgt. Major
Posts: 2650
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:07 am

Re: Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by Andy83 »

protobuilder wrote:
Andy79 wrote:
protobuilder wrote:
Andy79 wrote:Where and how did Syria get WMDs? Hmmm........
From their Iranian sponsors?
Nope. Guess again.
I think I'll let you guess this time.
Oh proto. You are so cute and clever.
Obama's narcissism and arrogance is only superseded by his naivete and stupidity.

User avatar

Bob Wildes
Top
Posts: 1831
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:22 pm
Location: Heart Of Darkness

Re: Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by Bob Wildes »

kreator wrote:Well, these people seemed to recover fine from voting for the Iraq war:

Biden (DE)
Clinton (NY)
Dodd (CT)
Feinstein (CA)
Kerry (MA)
Lieberman (CT)
Reid (NV)
Edwards (NC)
Schumer (NY)
Yeah Kreator, but you have to give that slimey, cocksucking, lying piece of shit Kerry props for " being for it
before he was against it".
"Tell A.P. Hill he must come up."


tzg
Gunny
Posts: 726
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:34 pm

Re: Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by tzg »

kreator wrote:Well, these people seemed to recover fine from voting for the Iraq war:

Biden (DE)
Clinton (NY)
Dodd (CT)
Feinstein (CA)
Kerry (MA)
Lieberman (CT)
Reid (NV)
Edwards (NC)
Schumer (NY)
This is a good point. I think what damage there was got limited to the Executive Branch, and perhaps rightly so. If what they were saying was true - nukes in six months, significant aid to terrorists, 18 mobile bio weapons production thingies - fine, whatever, if you insist, I'll vote for it. This is, again, part of why I don't think Iraq killed the GOP. W, Cheney, Powell, Rice, they can't have political power anymore. The others are fine. Okay, I think there was some fallout in 06 and 08, but it wasn't that much.


Topic author
TerryB
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 9697
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:17 pm

Re: Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by TerryB »

tzg wrote: Okay, I think there was some fallout in 06 and 08, but it wasn't that much.
They lost the House, the Senate, and the Presidency. Twice.
"Know that! & Know it deep you fucking loser!"

Image

User avatar

Turdacious
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 21247
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:54 am
Location: Upon the eternal throne of the great Republic of Turdistan

Re: Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by Turdacious »

Bob Wildes wrote:Yeah Kreator, but you have to give that slimey, cocksucking, lying piece of shit Kerry props for " being for it
before he was against it".
Which war?

Image
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule

User avatar

Bob Wildes
Top
Posts: 1831
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:22 pm
Location: Heart Of Darkness

Re: Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by Bob Wildes »

Turdacious wrote:
Bob Wildes wrote:Yeah Kreator, but you have to give that slimey, cocksucking, lying piece of shit Kerry props for " being for it
before he was against it".
Which war?

Image
Good point. That cocksucker spewed his pinko, communistic, America hating, Ho Chi Minh fawning bullshit in 1971.
At least that was the first time I ever heard of that pencil necked sorry excuse of a man. Made a big splash
by throwing his medals away on live TV. Sometime before the 2004 Presidential race the lying Cheesedick says that
he still has his medals: the ones he threw away were not really his.
"Tell A.P. Hill he must come up."


Andy83
Sgt. Major
Posts: 2650
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:07 am

Re: Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by Andy83 »

He fucks his drunken ol' lady with that chin.
Obama's narcissism and arrogance is only superseded by his naivete and stupidity.

User avatar

Yes I Have Balls
Top
Posts: 2431
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:05 pm
Location: Wherever they's a fight so hungry people can eat

Re: Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by Yes I Have Balls »

kreator wrote:Well, these people seemed to recover fine from voting for the Iraq war:

Biden (DE)
Clinton (NY)
Dodd (CT)
Feinstein (CA)
Kerry (MA)
Lieberman (CT)
Reid (NV)
Edwards (NC)
Schumer (NY)
To be fair, after the NeoCons tied 9/11 to Saddam and WMDs, it would have been 100% political suicide to vote against invasion.

User avatar

Bob Wildes
Top
Posts: 1831
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:22 pm
Location: Heart Of Darkness

Re: Can the GOP recover from Iraq?

Post by Bob Wildes »

Yes I Have Balls wrote:
kreator wrote:Well, these people seemed to recover fine from voting for the Iraq war:

Biden (DE)
Clinton (NY)
Dodd (CT)
Feinstein (CA)
Kerry (MA)
Lieberman (CT)
Reid (NV)
Edwards (NC)
Schumer (NY)
To be fair, after the NeoCons tied 9/11 to Saddam and WMDs, it would have been 100% political suicide to vote against invasion.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Bush administration mentioned WMD's all the time. I never thought that Saddam had anything to do with 9/11.
Yeah, I know that there are polls that say a shitload of Red Staters thought that, but I am not buying that.

WMD's yes. Tie ins to 9/11. No.
"Tell A.P. Hill he must come up."

Post Reply