Fast and Furious

[Batboy2/75]

the answer to our questions.

Holder to Call for more Gun Control

Fast and furious was nothing more than a cynical operation to further the statist gun grabbing goals of the administration. Who cares if US LEO and hundreds of mexican national are killed in the process.

[Schlegel]

I found it interesting that it turns out this is a repeat of a Bush-era operation that also was not very effective and lost many of its guns.

[Turdacious]

Vermont Democratic Sen. Patrick Leahy, the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, has said he plans to blame the Bush administration for gun walking tactics used in Operation Wide Receiver — a program similar to, but not the same as, Operation Fast and Furious. One major differences between Fast and Furious and Wide Receiver is that the Bush administration actually included the Mexican government in its law enforcement planning while the Obama administration has yet to brief Mexico’s Attorney General, at least as of late September. During the Bush administration, there were also far fewer weapons allowed to walk. Wide Receiver allowed about 200 weapons to walk whereas Fast and Furious allowed about 2,000 weapons to walk.

http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/08/holde ... e-hearing/

A repeat of greater scale and utterly incompetent execution.

[bigpeach]

Obama really is 10 times the President that Bush was.

[Grandpa's Spells]

Fast and furious was nothing more than a cynical operation to further the statist gun grabbing goals of the administration. Who cares if US LEO and hundreds of mexican national are killed in the process.

I don't see the connection that the article is trying to make. It's normal for Holder to call for more gun control and for nobody to listen. What's the link to the F&F fuckup?

[DARTH]

Yet another thing that highlights the childishness of Liberal thinking.

"We would not have done this stupid thing if the laws were tougher."

Just stupid deflection. I guess since this operation backfired Darth Holder might as well proceed with it's real goal as laid out to him by Emporer Spock. to get tougher gun snatching legislation in the tubes.

Admitted Drug dealer, Marching with New Black Panthers and other scumbags 2 years before he ran for President, piles of academic writtings that show what a subversive fuck he is. 1st Open Commie appointed to an administration, Fast and Furious, Solyndra, Trillion dollor spending bill to kick money back to Unions and their leadership.

Man, Herman Cain gets heat because he might have asked for some pussy, meanwhile you have the Manchurian Canidate for the Far Left sitting in the WHite House, doing his damndist to bring down the US so he and his kind can rebuild it in their image.

[Gene]

Unfortunately, earlier this year the House of Representatives actually voted to keep law enforcement in the dark when individuals purchase multiple semi-automatic rifles and shotguns in Southwest border gun shops,” Holder’s written testimony declares. “Providing law enforcement with the tools to detect and disrupt illegal gun trafficking is entirely consistent with the constitutional rights of law-abiding citizens and it is critical to addressing the public safety crisis on the Southwest border.”

The Agents running "Fast and Furious" had such data at their disposal. Failure is its own best demonstration.

[baffled]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0512/75874.html

Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) circulated a draft contempt order against Attorney General Eric Holder on Thursday for a “refusal to cooperate” in the investigation of the Fast and Furious gun-walking operation.

“In describing the results of the Justice Department’s refusal to cooperate — including the hardships the family of a fallen Border Patrol agent have faced in seeking the truth, and retaliation against agents who blew the whistle on gun-walking — this briefing paper provides the facts, on which decisions will be made,” the House Oversight Committee chair said in a statement, referring to the document that accompanied the draft citation he distributed to the committee.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/05 ... z1trALNpN3

[Andy83]

Obama really is 10 times the President that Bush was.

Nah. Bush can ride a mountain bike over cliffs and shit. Obama can't even ride a tricycle.

[baffled]

LA times

Terry and his Border Patrol team happened upon them. He was killed in a firefight that began with U.S. agents firing bean bags and ended with the bandits firing semiautomatic weapons, authorities said. Two of their firearms, both AK-47s, were recovered and traced to the federal Fast and Furious gun-tracking operation..

[Protobuilder]

The current administrations reasoning behind nearly every fuck up is that the previous guys did the same thing.

So much for hope or change or whatever the slogan of the day was.

[baffled]

More or less. It's important to understand that they need to finish what they started with four more years, and a donation of at least $3. Even better, if you're getting married, defer your marriage gifts to the campaign.

There are a lot of innocent Mexicans and brave border patrol agents who are still alive, and that's not helping us make the point that guns and drugs are bad. Four more years.

edit: Or just let Mitt do the same thing.

[Pinky]

The current administrations reasoning behind nearly every fuck up is that the previous guys did the same thing.

I think a lot of this is simply due to how government works, and is independent of administration. Knowing that something produced no good results in the past is unimportant. All that matters is how easy the course of action is and whether it might result in a promotion. There is no downside risk to doing something that turns out to be stupid.

[baffled]

Ahem.

A dramatic shootout between authorities and suspected cartel gunmen at a Mexican seaside resort this month has ties to a botched U.S. gun operation.
A U.S. official said Tuesday that investigators have traced at least one firearm recovered at a December 18 gunfight in Puerto Peñasco, across from the Arizona border, to Operation Fast and Furious.
That's the disastrous operation run by agents in the Phoenix office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
Agents allowed suspected gun smugglers to buy about 2,000 firearms with the goal of trying to find and prosecute high-level traffickers. They couldn't track the firearms and most are believed to have ended up with cartels and gangsters in Mexico.
Many have turned up at crime scenes in Mexico and the United States, including at a shooting that killed a U.S. border agent in 2010.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/31/justice/m ... d-furious/

[Protobuilder]

The fact that they are able to trace the weapons back to the operation is evidence that the operation was successful.

[Turdacious]

The current administrations reasoning behind nearly every fuck up is that the previous guys did the same thing.

So much for hope or change or whatever the slogan of the day was.

Except it wasn't. The previous administration coordinated with the Mexican government up front on their similar program, and didn't have these problems. Not an insignificant detail.

[Protobuilder]

The current administrations reasoning behind nearly every fuck up is that the previous guys did the same thing.

So much for hope or change or whatever the slogan of the day was.

Except it wasn't. The previous administration coordinated with the Mexican government up front on their similar program, and didn't have these problems. Not an insignificant detail.

I didn't argue that it was. Size and scope of the operations were also vastly different as was the fact that Obama's program let the guns out without an idea of how to track them.

Responses on all sides are so predictable that you could write stories about them following the same script.

1. GWB institutes program that violates civil liberties in some way.
2. Democrats scream about the constitution.
3. Republicans scream about Democrats being soft on crime or some such thing.
4. Obama expands GWB's program in some way or comes up with a similar initiative on a far larger scale.
5. GOP and Dems swap talking points.

[Batboy2/75]

The current administrations reasoning behind nearly every fuck up is that the previous guys did the same thing.

So much for hope or change or whatever the slogan of the day was.

Except it wasn't. The previous administration coordinated with the Mexican government up front on their similar program, and didn't have these problems. Not an insignificant detail.

I didn't argue that it was. Size and scope of the operations were also vastly different as was the fact that Obama's program let the guns out without an idea of how to track them.

Responses on all sides are so predictable that you could write stories about them following the same script.

1. GWB institutes program that violates civil liberties in some way.
2. Democrats scream about the constitution.
3. Republicans scream about Democrats being soft on crime or some such thing.
4. Obama expands GWB's program in some way or comes up with a similar initiative on a far larger scale.
5. GOP and Dems swap talking points.

Except that is not what happened with operation Fast and Furious. Everyone of your points don't work with this fuck up.

Try again with the Spin machine.

[Grandpa's Spells]

The current administrations reasoning behind nearly every fuck up is that the previous guys did the same thing.

So much for hope or change or whatever the slogan of the day was.

Except it wasn't. The previous administration coordinated with the Mexican government up front on their similar program, and didn't have these problems. Not an insignificant detail.

Is this really true? I wouldn't expect people at the operational level to get swapped out or otherwise get radically different marching orders like "stop cooperating with our allies" just because of an administration change.

[Batboy2/75]

The current administrations reasoning behind nearly every fuck up is that the previous guys did the same thing.

So much for hope or change or whatever the slogan of the day was.

Except it wasn't. The previous administration coordinated with the Mexican government up front on their similar program, and didn't have these problems. Not an insignificant detail.

Is this really true? I wouldn't expect people at the operational level to get swapped out or otherwise get radically different marching orders like "stop cooperating with our allies" just because of an administration change.

The previous program was different, in that they had the ability to track the weapons and never lost track of the weapons. This one key fact is a red flag. Why did something as routine (and common sense) as tracking the illegal and dangerous goods get totally ignored? Particularly amongst the basic same group of guys and gals that ran the previous operation. Then ad in they decided not to cooperate with Mexican LEO on fast and Furious. Either the BATF is criminally incompetent or the administration is hiding something. Either way, someone should already be in prison for this.

[Turdacious]

The current administrations reasoning behind nearly every fuck up is that the previous guys did the same thing.

So much for hope or change or whatever the slogan of the day was.

Except it wasn't. The previous administration coordinated with the Mexican government up front on their similar program, and didn't have these problems. Not an insignificant detail.

Is this really true? I wouldn't expect people at the operational level to get swapped out or otherwise get radically different marching orders like "stop cooperating with our allies" just because of an administration change.

It's not just an ATF issue, pulling off a program like this successfully (if we consider the W era program successful) requires coordination among different bureaucracies-- both on our side and the Mexican one. Ignoring this, or not understanding how to do it, will always hurt a program's success. Not following a successful roadmap is a different matter entirely-- especially when the agencies who need to be involved already understand their roles.

[nafod]

Did the repubs ever allow Obama to hire a director of the ATF?

[Turdacious]

Did the repubs ever allow Obama to hire a director of the ATF?

Not sure that the Republicans have any say, but he was an Obama appointee:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_E._Melson

[nafod]

Did the repubs ever allow Obama to hire a director of the ATF?

Not sure that the Republicans have any say, but he was an Obama appointee:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_E._Melson

He wasn't confirmed through the congress, and wasn't nominated to be.

[Pinky]

Did the repubs ever allow Obama to hire a director of the ATF?

Not sure that the Republicans have any say, but he was an Obama appointee:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_E._Melson

He wasn't confirmed through the congress, and wasn't nominated to be.

Another case of the Republicans being soft on crime.