Getting around affirmative action if you are a white male

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Dunn
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Getting around affirmative action if you are a white male

Post by Dunn »

As many of you know I am work for a private sector EMS (amberlamps) company. The end of my paramedic school falls right about the time of Fall hires for the municipal Fire/EMS department. While not quite as much money as in private sector, the benefits (retirement, insurance, etc) are very nice. The problem, according to many friends who currently work there, is that I am a white male and they are trying to "diversify". The fact that I will have my medic license goes a long way but it is still far from a guarantee.

To combat this my instructor, a capt in the department, told me to claim Native American on my application. While I do have native blood somewhere in my past it isn't much. His logic is that they cannot actually disprove it since challenging me on it could be conceived as racism. I am kinda on the fence with the whole thing since I would rather not catch flack from an attempt like this. On the other hand if this would mean getting a job that would better take care of my family and further my career then the choice is tempting.

I am just curious if any of you have had dealings with this shit and how to work around it.

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Re: Getting around affirmative action if you are a white mal

Post by Grandpa's Spells »

To combat this my instructor, a capt in the department, told me to claim Native American on my application. While I do have native blood somewhere in my past it isn't much. His logic is that they cannot actually disprove it since challenging me on it could be conceived as racism.
Inadvisable. Things like this have a way of coming back to bite later.
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Re: Getting around affirmative action if you are a white mal

Post by WildGorillaMan »

I seriously doubt that it's that simple. I have no idea how it works in the US, but in Canada if you want to claim full status as a First Nations person (we used to just call them Indians) and get your card (it's an actual Race Card that you get to carry in your wallet, I shit you not) you have to prove lineage. Without a Tribal Band to supply the records to accompany the form, it's a tough sell.
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Re: Getting around affirmative action if you are a white mal

Post by johno »

For a while, it worked for Elizabeth Warren, who is 1/32nd Cherokee. Maybe.

But seriously, first, find out the facts. Is there really an affirmative action program in place? What was the complexion of the last recruit class? (Sometimes FF's are prone to rumor & speculation.)

Probably there's a huge downside to playing that card & getting called out for it.
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Re: Getting around affirmative action if you are a white mal

Post by DARTH »

Fucking affirmative action is nothing but racist and sexist and is really disgusting when it's used to fill the ranks of first responders.

My brother, a decorated firefighter and medic from a volunteer dept. got told when he applied to Utica New York's dept. that he could apply but all the slots were going to go to Bosnian immagrants. And that is what happend with the FD and the PD!

Now my brother has been decorated multiple times. He has had a house collapse on him and made it through, with the child he disobeyed orders to save intact. He has saved many people including other firefighters. He has brought 3 people back with CPR! (He told me it's usually some shit you do to make the family feel better that someone is trying to save the peice of dead meat that was their loved one or something taught to civies to feel like they tried.) He has more fire , rescue and medic certifications than you could shake a stick at. He has told me he is willing to die to save others. He is a mix of excessive empathy and balls. He loves doing this shit, the deaths get to him but he gets high off of the action and saving people. When he talks of it he does not so much highlight his bravery or skill but glows about how this baby is alive (and how fucking stupid the parent's were), this old man is alive. How his Buddy Brad is still alive ect ect. And his eyes well up when he talks about those he could not save.

As bad as I wanted to be a Warrior is how he is about being a Firefighter and EMT, difference is he was physically qualified to be a one and I am not.

Now who you want when your house is on fire and your kids are trapped?

Someone like my Brother, who is willing to die to save them or someone who got the job because he shit all over Nato efforts to make his country better but decides he wants to suck of America's tit and take a job from a proven firefighter and medic?

I dont know man? You don't want to get caught and fuck yourself but you seem to really want to do the job?
Last edited by DARTH on Fri May 18, 2012 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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Re: Getting around affirmative action if you are a white mal

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Dunn, I just saw you are in the Southeast US. Come West, young man.
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Re: Getting around affirmative action if you are a white mal

Post by powerlifter54 »

If you can prove your injun, then go for it. Or if you can't submit a recipe to an Injun Cookbook. Make no mistake, there is a diversity driven agenda out there that doesn't concern itself with selecting the best qualified. AA programs went from correcting unfairness to new claims that meeting the minimum qualifications for the position but looking a certain way or having certain plumbing helps their brand in the market place. Beat them at their own game and collect some wampum. Lots of cool ideas here:"family lore", "man of color", "Glass-Steagall", and if your dad was a janitor your golden.
It's been three weeks since the Boston Herald first reported of Elizabeth Warren's past claims of Native American heritage. And while Warren, and her campaign for Scott Brown's Senate seat in Massachusetts, would dearly like to move past the controversy and turn attention to her criticism of Wall Street, political observers from both parties say there's only one person to blame for the ongoing chatter: Warren herself.

The latest news fueling Massachusetts gossip mills comes Thursday from the Herald, which reports that Warren, a Democrat, contributed five recipes to a 1984 cookbook entitled "Pow Wow Chow," which was promoted as a collection of "special recipes passed down through the Five Tribes families."




Warren, who says her belief that she was 1/32 Cherokee came from "family lore," listed herself as a minority in a law school directory between 1986 and 1995. She was also touted by both Harvard Law School and the University of Pennsylvania -- where she taught -- as a minority and a "woman of color."

Warren, Harvard professor Charles Fried, and other supporters publicly rejected accusations that Warren used minority status to gain an advantage under affirmative action. But Warren's inability or unwillingness to produce either documentation of her heritage or university personnel records has kept questions circulating.

"There's only one topic of conversation in this state and there has been for three weeks now," Jim Barnett, the campaign manager for Brown, told Yahoo News. Both Brown's campaign and Cherokee tribe members have called on Warren to release her personnel files from Harvard and the University of Pennsylvania. The records would ostensibly show whether she mentioned her heritage when applying for teaching positions.

Causing further heartburn for the Warren campaign, the New England Historical Genealogical Society on Tuesday reversed its claim that it possessed evidence of Warren's Cherokee heritage. Warren, who grew up in Oklahoma, says she has no documented proof of her heritage.

"I sympathize a little bit where they [Warren's staff] are because they are getting much of the blame for mismanaging this crisis, but their problem is that they have a candidate that's not telling the truth," Barnett told Yahoo News.

Warren's press secretary Alethea Harney declined to respond to requests for comment from Yahoo News.

While the Native American story continues to dominate coverage of the Massachusetts Senate race, Warren is trying to steer the conversation back to her presumed strength as a candidate: her willingness to take on Wall Street. Warren, a star consumer advocate who was Obama's first choice to head up the new Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (though Republicans blocked her appointment), called on Jamie Dimon, the chief executive of J.P. Morgan, to resign from the New York Federal Reserve Board following the company's admission that it suffered a surprise $2 billion loss.

"We have to say as a country, no, the banks cannot regulate themselves," Warren said Tuesday on CBS.

Warren's campaign also released a new campaign ad Wednesday that tries to remind viewers why she was a highly coveted Democratic recruit for the Massachusetts Senate race.

"Big banks, institutions, Wall Street ... She's not afraid of anybody," a woman says in the ad.



Warren began the week by calling for a new Glass-Steagall Act--the New Deal-era banking reform law that was repealed in 1999. On Monday, both her campaign and the state Democratic Party criticized Brown for accepting donations from J.P. Morgan, and Warren's campaign rolled out another attack on Wednesday, arguing that Brown has actively sought to weaken federal Wall Street reforms.

"She has learned that when you are under attack, you have to respond, and respond quickly and hit back," Democratic strategist Mary Anne Marsh of Massachusetts told Yahoo News.

Despite the hullabaloo over Warren's ancestry, Massachusetts voters aren't seeing the issue play out in attack ads.

In a startling move that sets this race apart from many other high-profile Senate contests this election year, Brown and Warren agreed in January to curb all political attack ads from outside groups by donating to their opponent's charity of choice if outside supporters ignored their request to refrain from airing any ads--positive or negative.

In a state that has traditionally leaned Democratic, both Brown and Warren have run ads in recent weeks featuring their connections to President Obama, though Obama actually appeared in the television commercial for Warren. (Brown, who has touted himself as a bipartisan voice in Washington.)

"She's a janitor's daughter who has become one of the country's fiercest advocates for the middle class," Obama says in Warren's ad.
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Re: Getting around affirmative action if you are a white mal

Post by Shapecharge »

Dunn, I work in city government. Don't do it. If you're a competitive candidate then take confidence in that and don't try to game the system. As someone previously mentioned, it's not that simple. If there's even a hint of deception on an application it's grounds for an immediate rejection.

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Re: Getting around affirmative action if you are a white mal

Post by Dunn »

Affirmative action is racist, no arguments there. And it would seem that there is some truth to the rumors. A buddy, Hawaiian, was told by one of the hiring officers that he should apply since they only have one Pacific Islander/Asian on the department. Capt's argument followed this line of logic: "Legally that have the right to ask you for affirmative action purposes. But they cannot fire you based on race or ethnicity, regardless of you being a card carrying member of a tribe or not."

On that note, there is dissent in the Native community on the notion of tribal affiliation with some groups. The Poarch Creek tribe of Alabama has had issues in the past on this. My issue is that while as a kid I did take part in various Indian heritage stuff I have no actual tribal (Creek) affiliation that has been legalized, and probably not enough blood to do so. I honestly could care less about the moral ramifications of this since ethnicity is a cluster fuck of a subject. I want the job, but I do not wish to be popped with any legal shit about this.
johno wrote:Dunn, I just saw you are in the Southeast US. Come West, young man.
That would be awesome. We still wish to move but getting the funds ready and getting out of this mortgage would be tricky. Getting my Fire 1 & 2 out of the way while I am here would be great.

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Re: Getting around affirmative action if you are a white mal

Post by Dunn »

Shapecharge wrote:Dunn, I work in city government. Don't do it. If you're a competitive candidate then take confidence in that and don't try to game the system. As someone previously mentioned, it's not that simple. If there's even a hint of deception on an application it's grounds for an immediate rejection.

And this is why I will most likely not do it.

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Re: Getting around affirmative action if you are a white mal

Post by tough old man »

I tested for a major city PD job a long time back. I was ranked #7 on the overall list and they hired 22 people. I never got an interview. They hired a Hispanic lady for patrol who was #240 something on the list. One white female was hired.
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Re: Getting around affirmative action if you are a white mal

Post by dingleberry »

The way it has been explained to me is that if you have ever checked caucasian/white on a government form; you are classified.

Now this was 30 years ago when I was in high school, but I have been checking "other" ever since. No one has ever asked me about it.

My fire department usually hires classes of approx 15 or more and although it is a old southern city (Richmond, VA; which incidentally has the largest case of white guilt ever) the classes are still mostly white males. The administration recruits heavily in the hispanic, black, asian populations but as they have been told by several people "you can't make people want the job."
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Re: Getting around affirmative action if you are a white mal

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Dunn wrote: Getting my Fire 1 & 2 out of the way while I am here would be great.
Yes. If you get your FF 1 & 2, and you have your Paramedic cert, you would be a great candidate for any West Coast FD. Hell, any for FD in the US. And you would apply as a "lateral" hire. That's all my Dept. has hired in the past 3-5 years.
Generally, West Coast FF's get better pay & schedules.

Good luck, Bro!
Last edited by johno on Fri May 18, 2012 3:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Getting around affirmative action if you are a white mal

Post by Blaidd Drwg »

Dunn wrote:
Shapecharge wrote:Dunn, I work in city government. Don't do it. If you're a competitive candidate then take confidence in that and don't try to game the system. As someone previously mentioned, it's not that simple. If there's even a hint of deception on an application it's grounds for an immediate rejection.

And this is why I will most likely not do it.

If you want to beat affirmative action, lying on the app is a negro's way out. Use your white man powers and get to a man on the inside who can pull for you. This is and always will be the way to get it done.

and seriously, Johno's right, look west.
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Re: Getting around affirmative action if you are a white mal

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Blaidd Drwg wrote: Use your white man powers and get to a man on the inside who can pull for you.
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Re: Getting around affirmative action if you are a white mal

Post by TerryB »

To combat this my instructor, a capt in the department, told me to claim Native American on my application.
Is this guy part of the hiring team? Was he signaling to you or just talking out of his ass? If they want you, maybe they're telling you how to help them help you.

I also think that you could fake it 'till you make it. IF you're challenged, you play dumb and say you always thought you had Native American heritage and as a youngster, you participated in tribal activities, etc. I doubt they'd demand you prove affiliation, and if they do, you say, "well I looked into it and I guess I can't 'prove' it but our family tradition is that we have native american heritage, etc etc" and see what they do. Worst case scenario, you don't get the AA points and don't get hired, and then you try to get hired at another department. I don't see any serious ramifications from doing so. You're not outright scamming. YOu have a reasonable belief that you have native american blood.
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Re: Getting around affirmative action if you are a white mal

Post by KingSchmaltzBagelHour »

Look at most city FDs, white males are quite abundant. My experience is that affirmative action is a cop out for honkies that either bombed the test or interview process.
Not sure about GA, YMMV.


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Re: Getting around affirmative action if you are a white mal

Post by KingSchmaltzBagelHour »

Good luck though Dunn. Hopefully your experience as a medic will help you out in getting the job.


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Re: Getting around affirmative action if you are a white mal

Post by knuckles »

Around here it has always been about who you know or related to. Volunteer . Marry the chief' daughter .Press the flesh.

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Re: Getting around affirmative action if you are a white mal

Post by Holland Oates »

There is no minimal blood to be considered an injun if you are on the roll but if you aren't on the roll you can be a redass injun with long hair and talk to animals and you don't count.

Hell, you've seen my pics. Fair skin, red beard, brown hair, and I'm a card carrying cherokee.

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Re: Getting around affirmative action if you are a white mal

Post by Jonny Canuck »

protobuilder wrote:
To combat this my instructor, a capt in the department, told me to claim Native American on my application.
Is this guy part of the hiring team? Was he signaling to you or just talking out of his ass? If they want you, maybe they're telling you how to help them help you.

I also think that you could fake it 'till you make it. IF you're challenged, you play dumb and say you always thought you had Native American heritage and as a youngster, you participated in tribal activities, etc. I doubt they'd demand you prove affiliation, and if they do, you say, "well I looked into it and I guess I can't 'prove' it but our family tradition is that we have native american heritage, etc etc" and see what they do. Worst case scenario, you don't get the AA points and don't get hired, and then you try to get hired at another department. I don't see any serious ramifications from doing so. You're not outright scamming. YOu have a reasonable belief that you have native american blood.
I had a similar situation with a University that wanted to hire me. They wrote a preferential job description for me which was not approved by HR. Then, when the HR approved job description was released they suggested that I do what it takes to make it through the screening process. I did not follow their advice and I was not selected for an interview.

The shitty deal about the fire captain suggesting you "do what it takes" is that it will backfire when you walk in on him banging a 15 year old boy in the station one day. The biggest problem with our local police guild and the fire union is that they all have shit on each other.

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Re: Getting around affirmative action if you are a white mal

Post by DARTH »

johno wrote:
Dunn wrote: Getting my Fire 1 & 2 out of the way while I am here would be great.
Yes. If you get your FF 1 & 2, and you have your Paramedic cert, you would be a great candidate for any West Coast FD. Hell, any for FD in the US. And you would apply as a "lateral" hire. That's all my Dept. has hired in the past 3-5 years.
Generally, West Coast FF's get better pay & schedules.

Good luck, Bro!


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Re: Getting around affirmative action if you are a white mal

Post by WildGorillaMan »

I don't think I've ever met a non-Caucasian firefighter or EMT.
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Re: Getting around affirmative action if you are a white mal

Post by Dunn »

I applied today using my correct info. We will see how it turns out. Hell, CPAT isn't until the Fall so I am not sweating it. Gotta get my medic license before this can even become a possibility.

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Re: Getting around affirmative action if you are a white mal

Post by Dunn »

Also, thanks for the well wishes.

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