Jordan Peterson on JRE

[Sangoma]

Again, I am not defending what happened in the Communist Bloc countries and the shit Soviets created while chasing world domination. It's just that economic and political reality reality is more complex than what could be expressed in a few sentences. As I said, USSR had a very progressive constitution at the time, yet nobody says: "Look what a constitution based on the principle of general human rights can lead to!"

The issue of regulating what's right and what's wrong is a touchy one. On one hand I shiver at the thought of a society that makes no attempt to protect its members against the unfair discrimination. On the other, such interference becomes self-perpetuating phenomenon and more often than not gets out of control. I don't know where and how to draw the line, and that's why I find the interview with Peterson very interesting.

[Turdacious]

Again, I am not defending what happened in the Communist Bloc countries and the shit Soviets created while chasing world domination. It's just that economic and political reality reality is more complex than what could be expressed in a few sentences. As I said, USSR had a very progressive constitution at the time, yet nobody says: "Look what a constitution based on the principle of general human rights can lead to!"

You mentioned the Kibbutz as being an example of successful communism, but couldn't they also be more influenced by Tolstoy and Georgism? I would guess that they are.

Re Marx and communism in general, I think we disagree more fundamentally. I see communism primarily as a gnostic belief that believed that through bloody struggle that human nature could be transformed permanently, and that the bloody struggle was a necessary component to creating the utopia.

The issue of regulating what's right and what's wrong is a touchy one. On one hand I shiver at the thought of a society that makes no attempt to protect its members against the unfair discrimination. On the other, such interference becomes self-perpetuating phenomenon and more often than not gets out of control. I don't know where and how to draw the line, and that's why I find the interview with Peterson very interesting.

We agree here, well said.

[bennyonesix]

Serious question. How is what you wrote not the one true scotsman fallacy applied to communism?

Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot... none of them were Communist if you listen to some people.

You illustrate the point I made in the first paragraph very well: people talk about Marxism without reading a single line of his work. If you took trouble to look up the definition of Communism you will see that none of these countries had it. USSR and others were ruled by the Communist countries, but the official social order was non-market Socialism. The proof that it was true is in the legal system that acknowledged individual and state property, something that's absent in Communist society.

The model closest to Communism exists in Israel - Kibbutzim are running on the principle of common property and their members are not paid.

"Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Glasgow Morning Herald and seeing an article about how the "Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again". Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing". The next day he sits down to read his Glasgow Morning Herald again; and, this time, finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion, but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says: "No true Scotsman would do such a thing"."

[bennyonesix]

Re Marx and communism in general, I think we disagree more fundamentally. I see communism primarily as a gnostic belief that believed that through bloody struggle that human nature could be transformed permanently, and that the bloody struggle was a necessary component to creating the utopia.

There is no transformation in Marx. The Revolution is because the dialectic is slow and humans have the power to supersede it through action.

[Sangoma]

"The left side of the corridor was decorated by three aphorisms.
God is dead.
Nietzsche.
Nietzsche is dead.
God.
Both of you are faggots.
Vasya Pupkin. "

Viktor Pelevin. "T".

[Shafpocalypse Now]

No. The opposite I think. Who says gender is binary? Me? You? They don't care what we think. "Gender identification" is whatever the judiciary says it is. That's his whole argument. The other-kin say it is gender. Who are you to deny?

SCIENCE BENNY. The planet is generally binary in sexual nature across ALL SPECIES.

[Shafpocalypse Now]

Gender, as commonly used and defined - straight off the internet.

gen·der
ˈjendər/Submit
noun
1.
the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).
"traditional concepts of gender"
synonyms: sex
"variables included age, income, and gender"
2.
GRAMMAR
(in languages such as Latin, Greek, Russian, and German) each of the classes (typically masculine, feminine, common, neuter) of nouns and pronouns distinguished by the different inflections that they have and require in words syntactically associated with them. Grammatical gender is only very loosely associated with natural distinctions of sex.

Sangoma...look, I'd love it if communism and marxism was awesome and freeing and empowering but we have a lot of examples of those shouting Marx's maxims then turning around and killing everyone who disagrees. The Soviet Union, China, etc, self-identifies as "communist" and "marxist". This scenario has played out. So the conclusion that Marxism allows the left leaning to jump all the way over to the far right in the way they deal with people. Just the descriptions of what happened during the formation of the soviet union are telling. Party members roll into the town, they find the dregs, the stupid, the brutish, the once who either don't work or are too dumb to reap the benefits of work, and encourage them to kill those who do, and take their shit, and add it to the collective.

[dead man walking]

No. The opposite I think. Who says gender is binary? Me? You? They don't care what we think. "Gender identification" is whatever the judiciary says it is. That's his whole argument. The other-kin say it is gender. Who are you to deny?

SCIENCE BENNY. The planet is generally binary in sexual nature across ALL SPECIES.

generally binary. ok.

but "all species"? how about hermaphroditic (intersex) worms, reptiles, and plants?

and don't forget the multi-sexual ed zachary, posting now under a nom de plume to avoid the disapprobation of fundamentalists.

[bennyonesix]

No. The opposite I think. Who says gender is binary? Me? You? They don't care what we think. "Gender identification" is whatever the judiciary says it is. That's his whole argument. The other-kin say it is gender. Who are you to deny?

SCIENCE BENNY. The planet is generally binary in sexual nature across ALL SPECIES.

THEY REJECT YOUR SCIENCE SHAFMAN THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT OF HIS 2 HOUR + LONG ARGUMENT IN THE PODCAST.

WHAT SCIENTIFIC BASIS HAVE THE TRANSGENDER AND PRO-TRANSGENDER FOLKS EVER ASSERTED FOR THEIR POSITION?

[bennyonesix]

Gender, as commonly used and defined - straight off the internet.

gen·der
ˈjendər/Submit
noun
1.
the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).
"traditional concepts of gender"
synonyms: sex
"variables included age, income, and gender"
2.
GRAMMAR
(in languages such as Latin, Greek, Russian, and German) each of the classes (typically masculine, feminine, common, neuter) of nouns and pronouns distinguished by the different inflections that they have and require in words syntactically associated with them. Grammatical gender is only very loosely associated with natural distinctions of sex.

Jfc dude their entire project is the destruction of traditional gender norms. And the Candian Legislature just enacted a law based on their understanding.

[bennyonesix]

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/updat ... le/2576760

[TerryB]

but i'm not sure this challenge to absolute authority is anything new. imagine overthrowing a king who occupied his throne by divine right. that's kinda how we got started here.

Except the concept, the "value" if you want to call it that, is ubiquitous and universal in virtually every age and across virtually every civilization. This isn't something white European priests dreamed up.

The people challenging (tearing down, really) our common concepts, binary-ism, gender, etc, want to invent a new history, starting now. I think the difficulty of their task is why they rely on authoritarianism to accomplish it.

[dead man walking]

i get that homo and lez are pretty much timeless, and for that reason, not all that big a deal, i don't think.

tranny is an entirely different category. trannies exist only because of advances in medical technology--hormone injections, dick- and tit-ectomies, silicone implants, and such. a tranny represents a feat of engineering. who knows, some day, docs may implant a uterus, and a tranny will get pregnant. rainbow confetti for that.

trannies are the emergent species of the post-industrial era.

we were better off when the most a guy could do was cross-dress.

none of this matters, though, because you're all gonna fry when the climate heats up.

[Turdacious]

Fer benny:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSYpzB4Wc4Q[/youtube]

[Sangoma]

No. The opposite I think. Who says gender is binary? Me? You? They don't care what we think. "Gender identification" is whatever the judiciary says it is. That's his whole argument. The other-kin say it is gender. Who are you to deny?

SCIENCE BENNY. The planet is generally binary in sexual nature across ALL SPECIES.

Not that simple. To date it is impossible to determine the gender of a person. Chromosomal testing used to be the answer, but there are plenty of well developed men with XX and women with Y chromosomes. Martinez-Patino, Semenya, Soundarajan - just a few cases in point.

But the trouble with the politically correct is exactly that, the idea that you can be absolutely politically correct. If a guy wants to be called a girl - I don't have a problem with that. Likewise, if someone wants to be neither nor - just let me know how to call you, though I suspect most of these people will settle for he or she to make life more practical. The whole idea of transgender it to be the gender opposite of what you have, so again, it's she or he. Inventing 70 pronouns for all possible combinations - and trying to reinforce their use - is The Mother of Overdoing Things.

[Sangoma]

Sangoma...look, I'd love it if communism and marxism was awesome and freeing and empowering but we have a lot of examples of those shouting Marx's maxims then turning around and killing everyone who disagrees. The Soviet Union, China, etc, self-identifies as "communist" and "marxist". This scenario has played out. So the conclusion that Marxism allows the left leaning to jump all the way over to the far right in the way they deal with people. Just the descriptions of what happened during the formation of the soviet union are telling. Party members roll into the town, they find the dregs, the stupid, the brutish, the once who either don't work or are too dumb to reap the benefits of work, and encourage them to kill those who do, and take their shit, and add it to the collective.

I agree with that. There is no argument about it, Marxist and consequently Communist ideas are way easier to use for the purpose of terror than those of other philosophies. My beef is with Peterson's overdramatising. The problem he is referring to relates to the Nanny State politics, which can be implemented under any social order, not particular philosophy.

[Shafpocalypse Now]

I agree with you, there too. I don't think we'll get that shit in the US... The hate crime stuff, that is

[bennyonesix]

Lol read this

http://www1.nyc.gov/site/cchr/law/legal ... n.page#3.1

[Shafpocalypse Now]

Where is the definition of covered entities?

[bennyonesix]

Check the three bullet points directly above.

[theoverman]

People say marxism when they mean stalinism. marx=das kapital.

the idea that a company must not only make a profit, but must make more profit than its competitors, and necessarily so owing to it's fiduciary duty to its owners. this, apart from external intervention, exploits not by happenstance, but necessarily. this notion doesnt say anything about the structure of ukrainian sugarbeet farming.

this is happening right now, company incentivizes nefarious cross selling practices etc etc. thing is, it's not that bad and in the mean time everyone has smart phones and ice cream and vaccinations and shit.

[Sangoma]

Once again it's not that simple. Besides iPhones and ice cream we also get pollution, wars, unethical corporate practices, power transfer from the government to big business, widening income and living conditions gap between the rich and the poor etc.

[Turdacious]

Once again it's not that simple. Besides iPhones and ice cream we also get pollution, wars, unethical corporate practices, power transfer from the government to big business, widening income and living conditions gap between the rich and the poor etc.

Are you talking about the country you're from?

[Sangoma]

Is there a country for which this is not true?

[ledfistaco]

Excellent summation of Marx:
http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/13/bo ... r-on-marx/
Not nearly as original or as prescient as usually credited with.
And then the giant flaw well summed in this piece.