Marine Survives Two Tours in Iraq, SWAT Kills Him

[Turdacious]

What Guerena should have done:



RIGHT SPELLS?

[Grandpa's Spells]

How you figured that he's probably guilty?

While too frequent to be acceptable, SWAT teams usually don't storm the wrong house. It's a very unusual occurrence. He had extremely unusual items in his home consistent with tradecraft of the crimes he was accused of. He is alleged to have been holding an AR-15 at the time he was shot. Given five men shot him 60 times, I don't think he was unarmed.

Alone, you could probably dismiss any one of those facts, but together it looks like he played in the dirt and got dirty.

Spells, what does what he was holding in his house have anything to do with any of it?

See bold. I think a normal innocent citizen with an AR might, in a fit of bad judgment, pick it up and point it at police officers. But it's also consistent with the behavior of somebody doing the shit he's accused of, along with owning LEO uniforms, body armor, etc. Combining those factors, he's more likely than not guilty, and I wouldn't get too worked up about this being a police state unless you feel exactly the same way when a SWAT team does the same thing on a drug house, meth lab, etc.

[Turdacious]

Makes sense. If you live in an area where there have been home invasions, and you are trying to protect your family, the smartest thing is always to point your weapon away from the intruders. That's how AR-15's are designed to work.

[tough old man]

a normal innocent citizen with an AR might, in a fit of bad judgment, pick it up and point it at police officers.

A normal person who owned an AR might point it at what he believes are home invaders too. Your methods may vary.

[Sassenach]

a normal innocent citizen with an AR might, in a fit of bad judgment, pick it up and point it at police officers.

A normal person who owned an AR might point it at what he believes are home invaders too. Your methods may vary.

This.

[Dietrich Buchenholz]

a normal innocent citizen with an AR might, in a fit of bad judgment, pick it up and point it at police officers.

A normal person who owned an AR might point it at what he believes are home invaders too. Your methods may vary.

This.

Haha. Good luck with that.

Instead of investing in an AR-15 to protect the family, people would be better off buying helmets for daily wear.

[bigpeach]

Why the fuck are you all blathering about shit that happened in Mexico's newest state?

[Grandpa's Spells]

Makes sense. If you live in an area where there have been home invasions, and you are trying to protect your family, the smartest thing is always to point your weapon away from the intruders. That's how AR-15's are designed to work.

Are you saying that if 8 men in police uniforms with SMGs were screaming "POLICE, GET DOWN ON THE GROUND" your response would be to point a gun at them? You'd conclude, "I bet they aren't cops and I can probably taken them?"

[Turdacious]

Makes sense. If you live in an area where there have been home invasions, and you are trying to protect your family, the smartest thing is always to point your weapon away from the intruders. That's how AR-15's are designed to work.

Are you saying that if 8 men in police uniforms with SMGs were screaming "POLICE, GET DOWN ON THE GROUND" your response would be to point a gun at them? You'd conclude, "I bet they aren't cops and I can probably taken them?"

Has it been determined that the cops IDed themselves? Their stories have been changing, and they've released no details.

Re no-knock warrants:

Kathryn Johnston (c1914-2006) was an elderly Atlanta, Georgia woman shot by three undercover police officers in her home on November 21, 2006 after she fired one shot at the ceiling, assuming her home was being invaded. While the officers were wounded by friendly fire, none of the officers received life threatening injuries, but Johnston was killed by their gunfire.[1]
Two former Los Angeles Police Department officers, along with 13 others, have plead guilty to running a robbery ring, which used fake no-knock raids as a ruse to catch victims off guard. The defendants would then steal cash and drugs to sell on the street. This tactic led Radley Balko, editor of Reason Magazine, to complain "So not only can you not be sure the people banging down your door at night are the police, not only can you not be sure they’re the police even if they say they’re the police, you can’t even be sure it’s safe to let them in even if they are the police."[3][4][5]
Tracy Ingle was shot in his house five times during a no-knock raid in North Little Rock, Arkansas. After the police entered the house Tracy thought armed robbers had entered the house and intended to scare them away with a non-working gun. The police expected to find drugs, but none were found. He was brought to the intensive care, but police pulled him out of intensive care for questioning, after which they arrested him and charged him with assault on the officers who shot him.[6][7]
Ismael Mena, a Mexican immigrant, was shot and killed by SWAT team officers in Denver, Colorado who were performing a no-knock raid that was approved by a judge acting on false information contained in a search warrant. The police believed there to be drugs in the house, but no drugs were found on the premises, and it was later revealed that the address given to the SWAT team by officer Joseph Bini was the wrong one. Jefferson County District Attorney Dave Thomas investigated the matter and cleared the officers involved with the raid on the grounds that Mena had pointed a gun and fired it at SWAT officers, although who fired first remains unknown. However, many have objected to the investigation's findings due to inconsistencies in the various officers' account of what happened. The American Civil Liberties Union, and others, have objected to the Denver Police Department's request for a no-knock raid and the Judge's decision to allow such a raid on the grounds that they failed to meet the criteria necessary for a no-knock raid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-knock_warrant

Bottom line: the police down there have handled this incredibly badly, both from a legal and from a PR standpoint.

[Blaidd Drwg]

Spells knows that SWAT followed protocol, he knows the victim was pointing an AR15 at the officers and he knows that the victim refused commands to get down on the floor. he knows these things based on evidence gathered by the same SWAT team while the guy bled out on the floor. FOR AN HOUR.

i don't care if the guy was an accused child rapist, this whole thing stinks.

[baffled]

How you figured that he's probably guilty?

While too frequent to be acceptable, SWAT teams usually don't storm the wrong house. It's a very unusual occurrence. He had extremely unusual items in his home consistent with tradecraft of the crimes he was accused of. He is alleged to have been holding an AR-15 at the time he was shot. Given five men shot him 60 times, I don't think he was unarmed.

Alone, you could probably dismiss any one of those facts, but together it looks like he played in the dirt and got dirty.

Spells, what does what he was holding in his house have anything to do with any of it? No knock warrant, they get to him and he is allegedly holding a weapon. If I were in my room and heard my door crashing down, I would grab one of my "weapons". Or, like DDL and just about anyone else has said, you could just lie there and hope it's the "good guys". Then make a point after the story gets out that he had unusual things in his home, therefore they were probably right to go in, but maybe got a little trigger happy.

They had a search warrant signed by a judge, so legally they did have the right to go in.

And what does that have to do with my statement? Pretty sure none of what I wrote said they didn't. People can debate the constitutionality of a no knock warrant, but just because they have a warrant does not make putting a bullet into him okay, or legal. That's my point

What's to stop the police from acting as judge, jury and executioner under the guise of a no knock warrant? Or any search warrant really?

I'm hung over and sleep deprived so I'll stop rambling now.

Well, you stated that they probably had the right to go in. No, they did have the right to go in.

Furthermore, what percentage of search warrant executions do you think result in the police acting as "judge, jury, and executioner?" Who's arguing that the warrant gave them a right to shoot him?

Fuck this perp, he pointed an AR-15 at cops and rolled the dice. In doing so, he gave them the right to shoot him.

DB, read through that and tell me you're not a complete fucking idiot.

[Dietrich Buchenholz]

Unflushable,
It's standard practice on a no-knock to announce yourself. It's highly unlikely they didn't announce themselves. 8+ guys and the controlled chaos of an entry. They screamed it.

As far as the investigation is concerned, it will all come out. The only who have commented so far are the lawyer for the perp's family and the lawyer representing the PD. One does not compromise investigations by letting the media in on every step. That's the PR burden to bear for the police. As far as the warrant is concerned, don't expect an unsealing order for the warrant application. They still have related criminal prosecutions to take care of.
Haven't you seen shit like this unfold before? Well,

Baffled,
Read all of your postings, you silly internet fucktard. Choke yourself.

[Blaidd Drwg]

Unflushable,
It's standard practice on a no-knock to announce yourself. It's highly unlikely they didn't announce themselves. 8+ guys and the controlled chaos of an entry. They screamed it.

As far as the investigation is concerned, it will all come out. The only who have commented so far are the lawyer for the perp's family and the lawyer representing the PD. One does not compromise investigations by letting the media in on every step. That's the PR burden to bear for the police. As far as the warrant is concerned, don't expect an unsealing order for the warrant application. They still have related criminal prosecutions to take care of.
Haven't you seen shit like this unfold before? Well,

Baffled,
Read all of your postings, you silly internet fucktard. Choke yourself.

The truth will come out through the case against...whom? The guy is dead. You still cannot prosecute dead people in this country...There will be an "ongoing investigation" follwoed by an internal investigation...: at which point the pork will be cleared. If it was one or two guys lighting the place up someone would get suspended or the horror...receive training. Not in this case. 60 rounds is at least three guys cranking through the top end of their clips. Ass's will get covered.

[TerryB]

Thanks to the Supreme Court, the prudent police force will now just knock, say they heared "sounds of evidence being destroyed!" and then break the door down. That avoids the bad PR from the "no knock warrant" and makes the officers look prudent and cautious.

I agree w/ CM. This whole thing stinks. You are 100% within your right to own an AR15 and point it at someone tumultuously entering your home. It is pretty obvious to me that SWAT was highly charged up and ready to annihilate anyone they came across. The 60 rounds alone is enough to prove that. They acted like infantrymen going door-to-door in Iraq.

I watched a trial where some cat got shot and injured during a no-knock raid on... guess what! The wrong house. He had a .22 and shot back, and got shot and then arrested for shooting at the cops. Federal jury gave him $2 million I think. The cops said they announced their entry but the jury didn't care b/c the guy's attorney demonstrated that when yelling through a gas mask, and running forward while bent over with arms stretched out, (1) the guy couldn't hear WTF they were screaming, and (2) couldn't read the "POLICE" written across their chest plate.

[Blaidd Drwg]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/2 ... 67020.html

Good write up.

[baffled]

From the article CM linked to:

The Pima County Sheriff's Department initially claimed (PDF) Guerena fired his weapon at the SWAT team. They now acknowledge that not only did he not fire, the safety on his gun was still activated when he was killed. Guerena had no prior criminal record, and the police found nothing illegal in his home. After ushering out his wife and son, the police refused to allow paramedics to access Guerena for more than hour, leaving the young father to bleed to death, alone, in his own home.

How is Spells going to spin this? Playing in dirt and getting dirty?

[TerryB]

What's worse:

(a)sellings/smoking pot,

or

(b) living in a police state with overzealous prosecutors, easy-to-get warrants, and no-knock entries from hyped-up, militarized SWAT forces?

...

It's strange that pretty much EVERY politician is forced to publically say (a) and Republicans, who are supposed to be concerned about state authority, readily choose (a).

[HorizonMan]

Helmet cam video of the incident now out.

The man didn't have a chance, totally botched job.

[DPR]

I read that the LEO "uniform item" he had was a Border Patrol cap. I've trained with Customs and the Border Patrol. It's not unusual to get souvenir items after training with them.

[baffled]

Yes, that was quoted in one of the articles that I think CM linked to.

You can buy those caps on Ebay or Amazon, or maybe both. Whether those cops broke the law or not, they seem to have shown an incredible level of incompetency from the moment they decided to raid his home.

[Turdacious]

I read that the LEO "uniform item" he had was a Border Patrol cap. I've trained with Customs and the Border Patrol. It's not unusual to get souvenir items after training with them.

You can probably buy that cap at any Walmart.

[DPR]

So you shouldn't use it as justification to shoot a person in his own home.

[Blaidd Drwg]

I read that the LEO "uniform item" he had was a Border Patrol cap. I've trained with Customs and the Border Patrol. It's not unusual to get souvenir items after training with them.

You can probably buy that cap at any Walmart.

You can buy them around here in shitty truck stop marts. Mexicans think it's funny to wear them.

I'll say it again. I don't care if the motherfucker was deep into some nefarious shit. American Citizen, Honorably discharged Marine, Father at home with wife and kids. The way it went down is clearly wrong.

[Mountebank]

Helmet cam video of the incident now out.

The man didn't have a chance, totally botched job.

This video was on the local news last night. Brutal.

[Gene]

Helmet cam video of the incident now out.

The man didn't have a chance, totally botched job.

This video was on the local news last night. Brutal.

Siren sounded like a car alarm.

The door knocker stood upright in front of the door while knocking. Bullets can go through lots of doors. Better to stand off to one side to reduce exposure. He did holler something while knocking on the door.

The "helmet cam" person didn't immediately take cover when shooting started and had music playing in the background instead of listening to his radios.

One of the guys had his rifle slung over his shoulder. When the shooting started he ducked left and went towards the shooting and seemed to peek around the person in front of him. Should have hit the deck and crawled up to help out.

These guys didn't seem like they expected serious trouble. I read that Sgt. Guerenas's widow said that the Marine didn't own an AR-15. If he did the papers say it was on safe. Unless it was defective the police were the shooters.

One wonders if they were caught off guard by one cop's AD and let her rip? Panicked? They sure seemed to act like there were not rounds coming in their direction.

I don't know. I'm not a soldier.

Gene