Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

[Turdacious]

Racism didn't kill that guy in NY. New York cigarette laws and bad police tactics did.

Somebody should start a 36 page thread talking about improper behavior by law enforcement types.

TBF...Drath did raise a point on FB (and probably here) that what ultimately got that cat was the fact he was a great big fat person and a lot more suceptible to a heart attack or breathing problems than the avg. person. Now...the fact he was a GBFP is readily apparent to anyone, and a reasonable LEO would have tried to De-escalate the situation once the chap was on the ground. Still, it's a solid point that there were a series of lapses in judgement here, few of which seem related to his race other than 400 pound black men selling shit on corners tend to draw the attention of LE...for whatever reason.

Funny thing is that on that thread there are multiple occasions of improper conduct by cops against black people where nobody here has defended the cops. Those things have been brought up by posters who think there isn't enough evidence to convict Wilson. All conveniently ignored by Spells.

[Grandpa's Spells]

Funny thing is that on that thread there are multiple occasions of improper conduct by cops against black people where nobody here has defended the cops. Those things have been brought up by posters who think there isn't enough evidence to convict Wilson. All conveniently ignored by Spells.

Tiresome. Are people supposed to get attaboys for not being blinded by racism in the face of video evidence?

We didn't really know if there was enough evidence to convict Wilson, and still don't. The GJ evidence released only showed a case of a prosecutor throwing the case and looking for cover. You don't really need to go past that to see a problem.

Since I haven't spelled out specifically why, I guess I can. Witnesses don't have to be in 100% agreement to get a conviction. Under cross-examination, it might be found that that guys backing Wilson's testimony weren't credible. Or, without being given 100% of the forensic evidence ahead of time, Wilson's testimony may not have fit it quite so neatly.

Or maybe it would have been completely ambiguous. Or the people saying Brown had his hands up were lying. Had the prosecutor done his job, there would have been a public trial, with a lawyer for each side, and a conviction would have happened or wouldn't have.

Prosecutors deciding to indict should be able to make this happen easily. That didn't happen. People don't riot when the cops get out of line and the system works (and cops are a lot more likely to stay in line). It's when the system doesn't that people get pissed.

[Turdacious]

Tiresome. Are people supposed to get attaboys for not being blinded by racism in the face of video evidence?

No, it's just that you pulled out the race card like a college kid trying to take the high ground:

Non-LE people rushing to the cop's defense seemed, in nearly every case, to just-so-happen-to also hate black people.

Missing the point that bad behavior by police and the militarization of our police forces is what we object to-- with or without video evidence.

We didn't really know if there was enough evidence to convict Wilson, and still don't.

Except past precedent, especially in the context of Missouri law, suggests something different. Even the lawyers you cited suggested that conviction was highly unlikely.

[Blaidd Drwg]

People don't riot when the cops get out of line and the system works..... It's when the system doesn't that people get pissed.

"People" who riot are rioting for a lot of other (some quite reasonable) reasons other than the system working.

Not a single racially charged trial and verdict related riot/demonstration has had fuck all to do with that particular injustice...it has to do with rightly or wrongly perceived broad injustice. As the debate above reflects, facts have nothing to do with this.

Conversely....the Kelly Thomas case had everything do with the facts, no one ever suggested otherwise, the system didn't work and no one rioted.

[Grandpa's Spells]

People don't riot when the cops get out of line and the system works..... It's when the system doesn't that people get pissed.

"People" who riot are rioting for a lot of other (some quite reasonable) reasons other than the system working.

Not a single racially charged trial and verdict related riot/demonstration has had fuck all to do with that particular injustice...it has to do with rightly or wrongly perceived broad injustice. As the debate above reflects, facts have nothing to do with this.

It's both.

[dead man walking]

charles barkely and his broadcast partner kenny smith are having open discussion about ferguson and such

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/12/charles ... n-ferguson

listening to intelligent black guys talk about race is more illuminating that listening to otherwise intelligent white guys suggest race isn't an issue

[Blaidd Drwg]

People don't riot when the cops get out of line and the system works..... It's when the system doesn't that people get pissed.

"People" who riot are rioting for a lot of other (some quite reasonable) reasons other than the system working.

Not a single racially charged trial and verdict related riot/demonstration has had fuck all to do with that particular injustice...it has to do with rightly or wrongly perceived broad injustice. As the debate above reflects, facts have nothing to do with this.

It's both.

Fucking Horseshit.

No reasonable person EVER rioted solely over a single court proceeding that had zero effect on them personally. The facts of this case, any case for that matter, only matter to the policy wonks. The entirety of this fucking race card throw-down has to do with injustices, (inflated or not), suffered by that community. If Brown was gunned down in the same fashion by a resident of his own neighborhood ...there would be the typical response to black on black violence...silence, followed by....boy had it coming for bein a shitbag....the facts of the case would amount to no more than local gossip, despite the fact you have the same outcome.


EDIT:

FTR...if you think that the American Negro is getting a fair shake at equal treatment under the law ...you are a fucking moron and you're not paying attention.

By the same toke, if you think the culture of the American Negro isn't deeply wedded to victimhood (not unlike a lot of other cultures) you too, are a fucking moron and you're not paying attention.

[dead man walking]

is it time to move this conversation to phoenix?

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

is it time to move this conversation to phoenix?

Not yet...there's a story that the useless female police patrol supervisor on scene for fatty's death is black.

So this might have a Sean Bell twist to it before it's all said and done.

[Grandpa's Spells]

It's both.

Fucking Horseshit.

No reasonable person EVER rioted solely over a single court proceeding that had zero effect on them personally. The facts of this case, any case for that matter, only matter to the policy wonks. The entirety of this fucking race card throw-down has to do with injustices, (inflated or not), suffered by that community. If Brown was gunned down in the same fashion by a resident of his own neighborhood ...there would be the typical response to black on black violence...silence, followed by....boy had it coming for bein a shitbag....the facts of the case would amount to no more than local gossip, despite the fact you have the same outcome.


EDIT:

FTR...if you think that the American Negro is getting a fair shake at equal treatment under the law ...you are a fucking moron and you're not paying attention.

By the same toke, if you think the culture of the American Negro isn't deeply wedded to victimhood (not unlike a lot of other cultures) you too, are a fucking moron and you're not paying attention.

I'm not sure how we disagree. Yes, this happens exclusively in areas of long-term perceived injustice. But the people rioting do so after a particularly illustrative event like a cop getting away with something. Both things need to happen. 1990's LA didn't decide, "Well, it's Tuesday, time to riot." You had to have cops beating a man on camera and getting away with it. Alternatively, had that happened and otherwise everybody was getting along fine, there wouldn't have been rioting. Again, both things needed to take place.

[Grandpa's Spells]

is it time to move this conversation to phoenix?

Not yet...there's a story that the useless female police patrol supervisor on scene for fatty's death is black.

So this might have a Sean Bell twist to it before it's all said and done.

Yeah, different story this time, based on what's been said so far. Gun in the car, street dealing etc. This is the kind of thing where it's important not to overreach.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

You have to have white cops beating/shooting a black man for the media to get people riot-level frothy. Black cop on black 'victim' or white cop on white 'victim' and there's no riot even though it's the same event. Kelly Thomas (white/white cops) or Sean Bell (black/mostly black cops)= no riots. It's got to be the black 'victim' and the white cop for the riot formula to work and that in itself is wrong and hand wringing white people and the blacks who take advantage of them can take the blame for that....not blacks in general. I'm sure most black people in Ferguson stayed home with their doors locked as they took care of their families and got ready for the next day's work with a sense of shame toward what a tiny percentage of that community was doing....they weren't sitting at home saying "RIGHT ON MY BROTHERS AND SISTAS...BURN THAT MUTHAFUCKIN PIZZA HUT 2 DA GROUND, DAWGS!"

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

is it time to move this conversation to phoenix?

Not yet...there's a story that the useless female police patrol supervisor on scene for fatty's death is black.

So this might have a Sean Bell twist to it before it's all said and done.

Yeah, different story this time, based on what's been said so far. Gun in the car, street dealing etc. This is the kind of thing where it's important not to overreach.

Still there was a black cop on the scene is the point that seems to get pushed aside.

[Shafpocalypse Now]

Why ignoring all the black cop/white fatality stuff? It's cops that are the problem.

https://www.google.com/search?q=black+c ... 2&ie=UTF-8

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

Doesn't look like a 'mainstream' news outlet, but it's a well done, quick read, nonetheless:

http://toprightnews.com/?p=7474

by Jason DeWitt | Top Right News

“Racist White cops” “Black Lives Matter”

#CrimingWhileWhite #AliveWhileBlack

For two nights we have once agains seen the Media-Democrat-Activist complex explode about “RACISM” after a Grand Jury refused to indict NYPD officer Daniel Pantaleo for choking out Eric Garner, who later died from heart complications.


As with Ferguson, dozens of media pundits weighed in on race. President Obama declared the justice system “unequal,” and Attorney General Eric Holder pounced on the case as one motivated by race and worthy of “civil rights” prosecution.

New York Mayor Bill DeBlasio even declared that “hundreds of years of racism have led to this,” and angrily told how he instructed his own Black son to “act differently around police”.

Twitter hashtags quickly went viral – internationally – expressing the supposed racist nature of the officer’s action, including #CrimingWhileWhite, #AliveWhileBlack, and #BlackLivesMatter.

There’s only one problem with this racial narrative: it is utterly destroyed by a key piece of information that the Grand Jury knew — but the media would not reveal.

As reported by the New York Daily News:

Pantaleo who applied the lethal chokehold on Eric Garner was supervised by an African-American female NYPD sergeant.

“Having that Black sergeant in charge of that crime scene takes race out of the equation. As awful as Pantaleo’s actions appear on that video, at no time does that Black sergeant order Pantaleo to stop choking Garner.”

Whoa. Let that sink in for a moment. There’s more. From Kristinn Taylor:

The Black female police sergeant who was in charge of the arrest is not shown in the countless TV replays in the media of cellphone footage that showed White male police officers confronting and taking down Garner but she is said to be seen in the original video (the Grand Jury saw).

Why haven’t we seen that unedited video in the countless media showings? Can you guess?

From a police report reported by PIX11 in July, the sergeant’s name is revealed to be Kizzy Adoni.

“The female sergeant, Kizzy Adoni, made a similar statement in the report. She “believed she heard” Garner say he was having difficulty breathing. Adoni also said “The perpetrator’s condition did not seem serious and he did not appear to get worse.”

Unbelievable.

The national media’s rush to push its divisive racial agenda has once again blown up in their collective faces. Just like it did with the Duke Lacrosse case. And the Trayvon Martin case. And the Ferguson case. And now, the Eric Garner case.

Call it excessive force. Call it involuntary manslaughter. Call it justified force against a resisting suspect who had 31 prior arrests, who died from his substantial health problems rather than a chokehold. These are all legitimate arguments to bring to the table for discussion.

But not race. This case has nothing to do with it. And the continued media-Democrat focus on it is clear political manipulation to distract from Obama’s recent shellacking in the midterm elections and deeply unpopular executive action amnesty for illegal aliens.

And the media blowing this case into a white-hot racial issue stands in sharp contrast to their censorship of the the brutal street-lynching of a White driver near Ferguson on Sunday — after a Black mob screaming “F**k the White people…Kill the White people” beat Bosnian immigrant Zemir Begic to death with hammers in front of his newlywed wife.

That was a crystal clear hate crime murder. Yet there are no international hashtags to protest Begic’s lynching.

And I find it interesting that the media isn’t asking this question: why was Eric Garner even bothered to begin with? Why did Pantaleo’s Black female supervisor decide to arrest Garner for the nonsensical “crime” of selling cigarettes on the street?

Because New York City has the highest taxes on cigarettes in the world. And Because the same Bill DeBlasio who hysterically blamed racism for Garner’s death himself has dramatically ramped up enforcement of such petty crimes in order to increase taxes, while cancelling the successful “stop and frisk” program that reduced crime to record low levels in the decimated Black communities.

Those cops were there harassing Garner because of Democrat tax greed, not because he was Black. Where is the outrage over that?

[dead man walking]

interesting bogatir.

the writer fucks up at the end, though. the courts--not the mayor--ended stop and frisk, ruling it unconstitutional.

and suggesting that democratic tax greed killed eric garner stretches logic beyond the breaking point

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

interesting bogatir.

the writer fucks up at the end, though. the courts--not the mayor--ended stop and frisk, ruling it unconstitutional.

and suggesting that democratic tax greed killed eric garner stretches logic beyond the breaking point

Agree that the article is not perfect, but it is accurate enough of him to point out that while on one side of the mayor's mouth, he's softening on a lot of 'crime' and certainly SQF, on the other, I can see (can't prove, but can see) where NYPD PCT commanders would be getting quiet pressure for increasing the collaring of people selling loosies.

The tail wags the dog....

[Turdacious]

interesting bogatir.

the writer fucks up at the end, though. the courts--not the mayor--ended stop and frisk, ruling it unconstitutional.

and suggesting that democratic tax greed killed eric garner stretches logic beyond the breaking point

Not really, NYC cigarette taxes are pretty universally considered a terrible policy-- creates an illegal market, reduces revenue, and little known effect on smoking.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/0 ... 41823.html

[dead man walking]

according to this data, minor crimes got higher level of attention in garner's neighborhood:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/mino ... ghborhood/

not sure what to make of the info

[climber511]

Maybe the lower crime rates were due to the increased police presence and activity?

[johno]

I've seen the Garner arrest video several times. I doubt that the "chokehold" was what killed Garner, although the autopsy said it contributed to his death. G was a big, fat man in bad health who exerted himself against the munchkin cops. I'd guess it was the several cops who were on his back who did the major damage, not the ILLEGAL CHOKEHOLD. Which, incidentally, was held only briefly once he was on the ground, from what I've seen.
Positional asphyxia would be my guess for cause of death.


PS - G's hyoid bone was not fractured, nor his trachea crushed, as some have speculated. At least that's what I got from the news report on the autopsy.

[DrDonkeyLove]

...suggesting that democratic tax greed killed eric garner stretches logic beyond the breaking point

Consider it a first cause instead of the ultimate cause. It can't be denied that the reason the whole thing started is that he wasn't providing the man with his vig - and the man demands his vig via citation or incarceration, and in this case suffocation.

Garner died because he dared interfere with government reach and government muscle that didn't want to lose tax revenue to independent operators.

That's what Garner was doing, denying government its taxes by selling black market cigarettes a few at a time. And New York officials put out the word to stop it. And it was stopped. And Garner died.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

I've seen the Garner arrest video several times. I doubt that the "chokehold" was what killed Garner, although the autopsy said it contributed to his death. G was a big, fat man in bad health who exerted himself against the munchkin cops. I'd guess it was the several cops who were on his back who did the major damage, not the ILLEGAL CHOKEHOLD. Which, incidentally, was held only briefly once he was on the ground, from what I've seen.
Positional asphyxia would be my guess for cause of death.


PS - G's hyoid bone was not fractured, nor his trachea crushed, as some have speculated. At least that's what I got from the news report on the autopsy.

The choke was a dumb move and very much against any NYPD training or procedure I'm aware of, but you're certainly right....you can see that it was the pressure on the ground where the medical emergency became apparent. The head control didn't help matters either (although both are a perfectly reasonable way to control a resisting mope if needed). However, you only need to focus on G's left arm for one viewing to see exactly when he stopped resisting and it wasn't due to compliance...he was crashing....I feel the fat cop saw this and tried to cool the jets of the inked-up, Affliction MMA wannabe via body lingo knowing the cameras were rolling.

"ILLEGAL CHOKEHOLD" just sounds flashy but it's not an accurate term.

One thing's for sure: our government is doing a fine job feeding the welfare community based on the sizes of B&G.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

Not that we should put any extra stock in a celeb's opinions, but they do influence and shape public opinion. Here's Barkley on CNN, if you have not watched it, he's pretty cool and logical through the end. What would make for some good kumbaya programming would be "The Barkley & Rock Show" on one of the 24/7's.

Embedding is not working: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ4h7RCQHNQ#t=13

[DARTH]

Having him cuffed and down laying on the ground was hella stupid. That has been known to kill fat fucks and I am not a cop but have heard enough of them talk about that. Cuff them than sit them up.