Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

[Kazuya Mishima]

Ni66ers fail again. Darren Wilson walks (as he should). Ni66er and Jew lawyers at the DOJ flap gums and wail (as they are prone to do).

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nati ... story.html

[Protobuilder]

Ni66ers fail again. Darren Wilson walks (as he should). Ni66er and Jew lawyers at the DOJ flap gums and wail (as they are prone to do).

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nati ... story.html

Try to find a headline that indicates Wilson was cleared.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/0 ... 04846.html

Most stories bury the item deep in the article if they mention it at all.

[Kazuya Mishima]

I always love how black crime is blamed on "racist police practices". 99.99999999999% of all jaywalking cases are charged against blacks. Well, no shit, Tyrone...fucking ni66ers have been walking down the middle of the street since I can remember. It's like in their minds sidewalks are littered with job applications and child support garnishments.

Blacks have a tremendous uphill battle in this country, and anywhere else on the globe. It's rooted in their various (yet dysfunctionally similar) cultures and biology. Simple problem, simple explanation.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

The thing about any 'racist police practices' is (fair or otherwise) the black cops do in fact act the same way the white cops do. But that gets white apologists all in a tizzy so it's buried along with other harsh realities.

[Grandpa's Spells]

I don't get the argument of "Black cops and white cops abuse innocent black people to so this isn't a race problem."

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

I don't get the argument of "Black cops and white cops abuse innocent black people to so this isn't a race problem."

The argument is that while there is certainly and absolutely "abuse" as you say, it comes with a reason that is not "racist" just "realist".

A "what if":

You're walking down a block with your wife and kids and on one side of the street there are 4 whiteboy football looking players acting rowdy among themselves and on the other side, there are 2 black kids, 'chillin' but dressed like mopes. Which side of the street is your safer bet to walk down? Your gut's going to tell you it's the side of the street with the white 'ruffians' and it's probably right. Your PC'ness might override that, but there's a good chance Darwin will slap you up side the head for your insolence. The thing is, if you were black, you'd still walk down the street with the rowdy white kids, so would the Arab, Indian, Chinese, or Hispanic...they'd all take the whitey route.

That might be a race problem, but it's not a white people being racist against black people problem.

[Grandpa's Spells]

I don't get the argument of "Black cops and white cops abuse innocent black people to so this isn't a race problem."

The argument is that while there is certainly and absolutely "abuse" as you say, it comes with a reason that is not "racist" just "realist".

Don't have the stats and hand but, in Ferguson, it was pretty decisively shown that blacks were pulled over disproportionately more often than whites, by a factor that well exceeded the difference in racial crime rates. That is a racist system. The fact that you have some (and a tiny amount relative to the demographics) black officers enforcing it makes it no less racist.

[Turdacious]

Was the profiling general or concentrated in one area?

After decades of relative calm and stability, the apartments have become a tinderbox for crime. Canfield Green Apartments and the nearby Oakmont and Northwinds complexes are a study of the slow encroachment of poverty and social distress into what had been suburban escapes.

Angela Shaver has witnessed that sea change since she moved into Canfield Green Apartments 20 years ago. The state employee said she raised a prom queen there and sent her off to college.

There used to be a swimming pool. Now, there’s a bullet hole in the door below her.

That shooting, and many others, happened long before all the vigil candles melted in the middle of the street for Brown.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... cf253.html

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

I don't get the argument of "Black cops and white cops abuse innocent black people to so this isn't a race problem."

The argument is that while there is certainly and absolutely "abuse" as you say, it comes with a reason that is not "racist" just "realist".

Don't have the stats and hand but, in Ferguson, it was pretty decisively shown that blacks were pulled over disproportionately more often than whites, by a factor that well exceeded the difference in racial crime rates. That is a racist system. The fact that you have some (and a tiny amount relative to the demographics) black officers enforcing it makes it no less racist.

I actually almost fully agree with you and would like to provide not a 'what if' but a RL scenario to bolster your argument outside of Ferguson:

Two of my friends here in MN are brother-in-laws. Both in their mid-40's, both make six figures and are overall, great people I am happy to know and call friends:

One is a big ole meathead...high energy alpha, has been arrested for assault in the last 10 years (bar fight). Drives an Infinity SUV like a fucking maniac and is never pulled over. (He loves him some Obama, too.)

His BIL/my other friend, is black. Never been in the military but can talk guns with Batboy all day long and has a nice collection of weaponry; he also does 'jits' like 81% of the people here do. Never been in any trouble since I've known him. Classy guy and the white girls love him. Drives a non-blinged Grand Cherokee and drives reasonably. He is pulled over pretty fucking frequently. This enrages him (rightfully so).

Odds are you put these same guys in NYC, Dallas, San Diego, Seattle, wherever, it would wash out the same and it's wrong. It's not a 'Ferguson thing'. However, it's the 'why' that white apologists need to reckon with. Stop side-stepping that 'what if' walking down the block scenario. If we can't get white apologist types to call it like it is (as many black folks do), then our grand kids will have this exact same discussion when we are worm meat.

[Grandpa's Spells]

Odds are you put these same guys in NYC, Dallas, San Diego, Seattle, wherever, it would wash out the same and it's wrong. It's not a 'Ferguson thing'. However, it's the 'why' that white apologists need to reckon with.

The "why" is racism. I'll push it to an extreme to illustrate. If blacks were 10x more likely to be criminals than white, you'd expect them to be pulled over 10x more often in a fair system. If they're getting pulled over 50x more often, that's a problem with policing, not black crime. Despite whatever may be going on in the black community that makes them 10x more likely to be criminals, the cops are pulling over black people who, most of the time, aren't doing anything wrong. There's no justification for this.

Your friends would not have the same experience anywhere they went. It's worse in some places than others. St. Louis is extremely racially tense.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

Odds are you put these same guys in NYC, Dallas, San Diego, Seattle, wherever, it would wash out the same and it's wrong. It's not a 'Ferguson thing'. However, it's the 'why' that white apologists need to reckon with.

The "why" is racism. I'll push it to an extreme to illustrate. If blacks were 10x more likely to be criminals than white, you'd expect them to be pulled over 10x more often in a fair system. If they're getting pulled over 50x more often, that's a problem with policing, not black crime. Despite whatever may be going on in the black community that makes them 10x more likely to be criminals, the cops are pulling over black people who, most of the time, aren't doing anything wrong. There's no justification for this.

Your friends would not have the same experience anywhere they went. It's worse in some places than others. St. Louis is extremely racially tense.

OK, we're mentally masturbating here and you won't buy into (what I know to be) the fact that black cops treat black people the same as white cops do (and that can't be 'racist' can it?)....then the next best thing for society to try to do is reverse engineer what *really* happens in policing, instead of finger pointing any given community: take 1000 black cops (random, across the US) and blindly assess their arrest activity and any other metric you want to throw out there (car stops, force/abuse complaints, commendations, whatever) but do not disclose where they police, whom they police (race, crime rate, socio-economic, ect). Take 1000 white cops from those exact areas with the exact same amount of time on the job and do the same. I'm telling you, you will see no difference and that is the underlying issue. That is not racism, that is a black problem.

[Grandpa's Spells]

OK, we're mentally masturbating here and you won't buy into (what I know to be) the fact that black cops treat black people the same as white cops do (and that can't be 'racist' can it?)

Of course it can. You don't think Ferguson couldn't find three black cops to implement racist policy? You don't think the fact that there are only three black cops in an overwhelmingly black area is telling?

I'm telling you, you will see no difference and that is the underlying issue. That is not racism, that is a black problem.

If one group of innocent people is getting constantly harassed, even after controlling for that group's disproportionate conviction rate, there is a policing problem.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

The fact that you said there is a 'racist policy' is downright disturbing in all honesty. You think these guys need or want to make ugly work for themselves by being oppressive to the black folk of Ferguson?

I've offered what I believe can provide a bedrock starting point of a solution, what's your idea?

[Grandpa's Spells]

The fact that you said there is a 'racist policy' is downright disturbing in all honesty. You think these guys need or want to make ugly work for themselves by being oppressive to the black folk of Ferguson?

I don't get how you're simultaneously disturbed at a suggestion of 'racist policy' while simultaneously acknowledging you personally know people who get pulled over for DWB. DWB stops are racist. Your friend presumably isn't committing crimes when these stops occur, or he wouldn't get pissed.

[Turdacious]

What happened to Brown needs to be discussed in the Canfield Green context.

[johno]

Let's start small: where should police concentrate their presence? In high crime neighborhoods or other?

[Kazuya Mishima]

I like black cock and I cannot lie.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

The fact that you said there is a 'racist policy' is downright disturbing in all honesty. You think these guys need or want to make ugly work for themselves by being oppressive to the black folk of Ferguson?

I don't get how you're simultaneously disturbed at a suggestion of 'racist policy' while simultaneously acknowledging you personally know people who get pulled over for DWB. DWB stops are racist. Your friend presumably isn't committing crimes when these stops occur, or he wouldn't get pissed.

That's not 'policy' that is individual decision making based on personal experience....see? That's the rub: it's not 'right' per se, yet black cops do it in lockstep with white cops. There is an unfortunate group of innocents who are unintentionally harassed due to a cop's experience dealing with people who fit the same *profile*. I'm not saying what they do is right, I am saying they're instincts are often right for doing it.

But far more interesting is turn from a car stop to SQF (frisking) and it gets even more intense from both sides and I'm telling you I've felt like shit for tossing some of the people I've tossed (frisked), but in the moment, never once thought I wasn't acting in the best interest of personal or public safety and it was always a necessity...to include slamming people down on the hood of a car or on a stairway, throwing someone off of a bike, ect....all ended-up being innocent.

It's a problem....I completely understand why an innocent (black or otherwise) man would be fucking pissed at getting pulled over or tossed for no legit reason, but it's not a 'policy' problem nor is it a 'white racist problem' or a 'cop problem'. It's a black problem and that needs to be owned, first as far as the 'police against blacks' concept goes.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

What happened to Brown needs to be discussed in the Canfield Green context.

I think it's universally accepted that it's broader than Brown's hood and that's why my argument is to level set with what actually happens across the nation (i.e. do different shades of blue police differently, per what the numbers say?) vs. what some whinny lefty is going to 'expose' a la grande fashion on some website to keep the white Spells of the world, spun-up over what really is the right thing, but for the wrong reason.

[DARTH]

I like black cock and I cannot lie.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

Let's start small: where should police concentrate their presence? In high crime neighborhoods or other?

IMO, it's a bit more complex than concentration, but here goes my two cents....

First priority is go after all people with active arrest warrants. No matter how big, small or bullshit the warrant's for, bring that guy in. Not only is it a shake-up and a wake-up, but it's doing what the courts have deemed is to be done....so this is not 'reactive crime fighting' via patrol.

Second priority is keep safe what is safe and push out/expand that safe area. Now this can get confusing real fast if you're dealing with multi-muni's and multi-agencies. But basically push out the perimeter of 'nice', house by house and block by block, if necessary. If that means adding more resources around the perimeter to allow for that growth, than so be it.

Third priority is WWRD? I have to tell you, at first, I thought it was bullshit for people to get collared over small, quality of life crimes, when Rudy first took over (and I was on the job for that transition from Dinkins to Rudy), but there is no question that it worked. Thou shall not eat fried chicken, smoke a spliff, and drink a 40 on the street while sitting atop of someone's parked car. Thou also will not piss on the tires of said car. So yes, go after 'quality of life' violations and crimes as pick-up arrests.

Fourth priority is 'omnipresence': Task Force the fuck out of any and all events that the public would want to come out and be a part of. Same for 'legacy spots' that you can count on being active. For example, long before Clinton settled his office in Harlem, 125st was probably one of the absolute safest streets in the United States you can walk down on a Friday or Saturday night. Reason being was a massive, uniformed police presence on foot and in vehicles during those times. To be clear, the objective here is to be present, not necessarily proactively looking to fuck-up someone's night for any little thing.

Fifth priority is adequate uniformed presence at any venue that a minor would like to be at that is not during school hours. Again, not looking to make anyone edgy, but looking to make people feel comfortable to play a pick-up ball game or whatever.

[Yes, I'm drunk]

No police force anywhere has unlimited resources, therefore where you have disproportionate rates of offending between various subsections of the population, you'll always get a power-law distribution when it comes to how those resources are deployed.

eg. If it's known that blacks are 10x more likely to be the perpetrators of a crime in any given location, then it makes sense to target that population 99% of the time rather than just 90%, if as a law enforcement organisation you want to have the greatest impact on preventing crimes, given your budget and the time constraints involved. I honestly don't think racism as an issue comes into this.

[Turdacious]

What happened to Brown needs to be discussed in the Canfield Green context.

I think it's universally accepted that it's broader than Brown's hood and that's why my argument is to level set with what actually happens across the nation (i.e. do different shades of blue police differently, per what the numbers say?) vs. what some whinny lefty is going to 'expose' a la grande fashion on some website to keep the white Spells of the world, spun-up over what really is the right thing, but for the wrong reason.

True. However, isn't there a difference in police profiling and security postures in high crime neighborhoods (with a lot of black residents) and low crime neighborhoods (with a lot of black residents)? Or, if there isn't, shouldn't there be (DWB in a nicer neighborhood vs. DWB in the ghetto)? From my understanding, crime in Ferguson was not evenly distributed.

[johno]

From my understanding, crime in Ferguson was not evenly distributed.

This is my point. If crime (especially violent crime) occurs more often in black neighborhoods, it's understandable that police concentrate on those areas. And use more intrusive tactics there.
I wouldn't call that racist.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

Turd/Johno,

Yes, a known, high crime hot spot needs more active attention but the problem arises when that boundary gets fuzzy as it almost instantly and inevitably does. I.E. homie the bad guy gotz mad munchies and needs to cruise over to the other (good) side of town to get him some motherfuckin' Wendy's and gets pulled over in Niceville (with weapon in car, warrant for arrest, whatever). Or, conversely, John Q. Good Black Guy is bringing Wendy's over to his homebound elderly Auntie's in 'da hood after work and part time grad school and is pulled over in the hood because of a minor moving violation as cause. The brother leaned over to pick up a dropped french fry, not a dropped 9mm....that kind of thing.

So, I'd argue along side the lefties on this that DWB and its variations needs to be addressed hard in our lifetimes. I also think absolutely nothing will come of it simply due to the fact that white apologists won't call a spade a spade even when good black folks try to do just that on their own kind.

The irony of this thread is a guy with Kaz's mindset is going to do far more good to protect and enhance the quality of life of a hardworking black family than someone like Spells is where he seems to assume there is a systematic racist boogeyman in play who is keeping black people down or treating them unfairly.