Orlando Tragedy

[Sangoma]

Came across this link on one of the conspiratorial websites.

Orlando gay-club shooting: The pieces that don’t fit

The talk of more than one shooter, as well as couple of other things.

[The Ginger Beard Man]

http://opinion.injo.com/2016/06/256993- ... tent=crime

The details of this stuff are way out of my experience. Anybody want to take that apart?

[Boris]

I agree w. the police chief that the deaths are on Omar Mateen, but that doesn't mean that you fail to address the issue of friendly fire...
http://www.breitbart.com/national-secur ... ide-pulse/

[Sua Sponte]

I agree w. the police chief that the deaths are on Omar Mateen, but that doesn't mean that you fail to address the issue of friendly fire...
http://www.breitbart.com/national-secur ... ide-pulse/

The gold standard for a CQB assault is a multi-story, multi-point explosive breach, night assault on an unknown floor plan starting from a dead stop, killing and breaking everything you're supposed to and nothing you're not. Only Tier 1 assets can possibly pull this off. Unlikely anybody else can. Understand that even for a Tier 2 asset the training time for CQB assaults is not measured in days or a handful of weeks and that's starting with very carefully selected troops who have months of prior weapons and tactical training. Most SWAT teams get nowhere near that level of selection or training. While that SWAT team didn't have to do an explosive breach they did go in under highly limited visibility, into a chaotic situation with a an active shooter, with lots of innocents everywhere and the floor plan likely largely unknown in the specifics needed. For all the JSOC-wannabe CQB heroes online, who read a book, saw a movie, watched an instructional video, took a 1- or 2-day course, have all the right gear and the pictures to prove it, or are just legends in their own mind and are damn sure they know just how'd they'd react and what they'd do to win the day, well, fuck you. Time may show there were errors made, time may show errors in judgement, justifiable or not, time may show negligence and heroics not yet reported, but it comes as no surprise that hostages were inadvertently hit.

[nafod]

I agree w. the police chief that the deaths are on Omar Mateen, but that doesn't mean that you fail to address the issue of friendly fire...
http://www.breitbart.com/national-secur ... ide-pulse/

The gold standard for a CQB assault is a multi-story, multi-point explosive breach, night assault on an unknown floor plan starting from a dead stop, killing and breaking everything you're supposed to and nothing you're not.

For some reason, this reminds me of the time I had sex with my girlfriend while her parents were watching TV downstairs. Tier 1 all the way.

[Sua Sponte]

I agree w. the police chief that the deaths are on Omar Mateen, but that doesn't mean that you fail to address the issue of friendly fire...
http://www.breitbart.com/national-secur ... ide-pulse/

The gold standard for a CQB assault is a multi-story, multi-point explosive breach, night assault on an unknown floor plan starting from a dead stop, killing and breaking everything you're supposed to and nothing you're not.

For some reason, this reminds me of the time I had sex with my "girlfriend" while her parents were watching. Tier 1 all the way.

Fixed.

[DikTracy6000]

I agree w. the police chief that the deaths are on Omar Mateen, but that doesn't mean that you fail to address the issue of friendly fire...
http://www.breitbart.com/national-secur ... ide-pulse/

The gold standard for a CQB assault is a multi-story, multi-point explosive breach, night assault on an unknown floor plan starting from a dead stop, killing and breaking everything you're supposed to and nothing you're not.

For some reason, this reminds me of the time I had sex with my girlfriend while her parents were watching TV downstairs. Tier 1 all the way.

Tier 1, Really? I thought you were ex-Navy air-commando. Good analogy for you would be throwing water balloons out of a piper cub onto your old g.f.'s house.

[johno]

I agree w. the police chief that the deaths are on Omar Mateen, but that doesn't mean that you fail to address the issue of friendly fire...
http://www.breitbart.com/national-secur ... ide-pulse/

The gold standard for a CQB assault is a multi-story, multi-point explosive breach, night assault on an unknown floor plan starting from a dead stop, killing and breaking everything you're supposed to and nothing you're not. Only Tier 1 assets can possibly pull this off. Unlikely anybody else can. Understand that even for a Tier 2 asset the training time for CQB assaults is not measured in days or a handful of weeks and that's starting with very carefully selected troops who have months of prior weapons and tactical training. Most SWAT teams get nowhere near that level of selection or training. While that SWAT team didn't have to do an explosive breach they did go in under highly limited visibility, into a chaotic situation with a an active shooter, with lots of innocents everywhere and the floor plan likely largely unknown in the specifics needed. For all the JSOC-wannabe CQB heroes online, who read a book, saw a movie, watched an instructional video, took a 1- or 2-day course, have all the right gear and the pictures to prove it, or are just legends in their own mind and are damn sure they know just how'd they'd react and what they'd do to win the day, well, fuck you. Time may show there were errors made, time may show errors in judgement, justifiable or not, time may show negligence and heroics not yet reported, but it comes as no surprise that hostages were inadvertently hit.

I don't criticize the Friendly Fire. But, as I understand it, victims were left on the dance floor for hours. Orlando PD went into Hostage Crisis mode when they should have responded in Active Shooter mode, secured the dance floor, and enabled evacuation of the wounded. Maybe the Murderer's claim of explosive devices stopped them. Maybe they just wrote off the wounded.

I'd guess this incident will provoke many discussions & policy reviews.

[Sua Sponte]

I don't criticize the Friendly Fire. But, as I understand it, victims were left on the dance floor for hours. Orlando PD went into Hostage Crisis mode when they should have responded in Active Shooter mode, secured the dance floor, and enabled evacuation of the wounded. Maybe the Murderer's claim of explosive devices stopped them. Maybe they just wrote off the wounded.

I'd guess this incident will provoke many discussions & policy reviews.

I agree with that, given the currently available information. Falls under the 'Time may show there were errors made, time may show errors in judgement, justifiable or not, time may show negligence..' heading. I'll await for confirming information, though, following the "guy on the ground is right until proven wrong" edict.

My diatribe is aimed at the tactical timmy-types whose lack of experience beyond the donut shop and all you can eat buffet has imbued them with all the tacticool knowledge that SOCOM has been missing all these years.

[Boris]

fwiw, I was absolutely in no way criticizing how the incident was handled.

[Sua Sponte]

fwiw, I was absolutely in no way criticizing how the incident was handled.

Wasn't aimed at you, Mr. B

[johno]

I don't criticize the Friendly Fire. But, as I understand it, victims were left on the dance floor for hours. Orlando PD went into Hostage Crisis mode when they should have responded in Active Shooter mode, secured the dance floor, and enabled evacuation of the wounded. Maybe the Murderer's claim of explosive devices stopped them. Maybe they just wrote off the wounded.

I'd guess this incident will provoke many discussions & policy reviews.

I agree with that, given the currently available information. Falls under the 'Time may show there were errors made, time may show errors in judgement, justifiable or not, time may show negligence..' heading. I'll await for confirming information, though, following the "guy on the ground is right until proven wrong" edict.
...

I agree. I'd also guess that many of the troops were aching to go in sooner, but were prevented by Command. Not at all a case of cowardice, as some on the interwebz have said.


EDIT -http://taskandpurpose.com/ill-advised-s ... n=tp-today

One man's opinion supports my suppositions.

[Protobuilder]

Calm down.

We are a few votes away from this never happening again.

[Sua Sponte]

I agree. I'd also guess that many of the troops were aching to go in sooner, but were prevented by Command. Not at all a case of cowardice, as some on the interwebz have said.


EDIT -http://taskandpurpose.com/ill-advised-s ... n=tp-today

One man's opinion supports my suppositions.

Looks like you nailed it. Aggression solves an awful lot of tactical problems. Lose the initiative, lose the battle.

[johno]

I agree. I'd also guess that many of the troops were aching to go in sooner, but were prevented by Command. Not at all a case of cowardice, as some on the interwebz have said.


EDIT -http://taskandpurpose.com/ill-advised-s ... n=tp-today

One man's opinion supports my suppositions.

Looks like you nailed it. Aggression solves an awful lot of tactical problems. Lose the initiative, lose the battle.

War Story, sort of a tangent: Standing on a river bank, I watched a guy drown when I was ordered, "Do NOT go in the water. The Rescue Team is here." I was only a few years out of Battalion and pretty new on the Fire Department, and susceptible to those commands. That was one of the worst events of my career. And I'd guess there are a few Orlando PD who will never shake the feeling that they could have saved some lives, but weren't allowed to.

[DrDonkeyLove]

Calm down.

We are a few votes away from this never happening again.

It's a shame that those poor public servants have to sit on the hard floor wearing their sad faces to make their point. Since Paul Ryan turned off the cameras, I wonder how long a sitting shift lasts for the big shots: hours, minutes, seconds?

[Sua Sponte]

War Story, sort of a tangent: Standing on a river bank, I watched a guy drown when I was ordered, "Do NOT go in the water. The Rescue Team is here." I was only a few years out of Battalion and pretty new on the Fire Department, and susceptible to those commands. That was one of the worst events of my career. And I'd guess there are a few Orlando PD who will never shake the feeling that they could have saved some lives, but weren't allowed to.

Has to be tough to sit by and watch and do nothing and do nothing because that's what your orders are. Not sure how binding orders are in civil service, i assume it won't land you in jail as it could in the military, just perhaps out of a job. Then again, if one were to defy orders, let's say the cops early on the scene didn't stand down and went in after the shooter, then anything negative that happened thereafter, even if it were otherwise unpreventable, would be pined on them. Hostages shot? It was those damn rogue cops....with all the civil and criminal penalty that at would entail.

[johno]

Since the shooting at an Orlando nightclub last week that left 49 people dead, reports have emerged that gunman Omar Mateen frequented the gay club, used gay dating apps and had gay lovers.

But the FBI has found no evidence so far to support claims by those who say Mateen had gay lovers or communicated on gay dating apps, several law enforcement officials said.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orl ... story.html

Whoops! There goes the "Self Hating Gay" meme pushed by the Left.


...Instead, could he have been "ISIS inspired?" Gasp.