Envia Claims ‘Breakthrough’ in Lithium-Ion Battery Cost and Energy Density
Envia Systems, a battery maker based in California, announced on Monday what it called a “major breakthrough” in lithium-ion cell technology that would result in a significant increase in the energy density — and a sharp reduction in the cost — of lithium-ion battery packs. Envia is financed by the Energy Department and G.M. Ventures, the venture-capital arm of General Motors, as well as other investors.
“We will be able to make smaller automotive packs that are also less heavy and much cheaper,” Atul Kapadia, chairman and chief executive of Envia, said in a telephone interview. “The cost of cells will be less than half — perhaps 45 percent — of cells today, and the energy density will be almost three times greater than conventional automotive cells.”
Mr. Kapadia continued: “What we have are not demonstrations, not experiments, but actual products. We could be in automotive production in a year and a half.”
Envia’s announcement said that its packs would deliver cell energy of 400 watt-hours per kilogram at a cost of $150 per kilowatt-hour. Though it doesn’t disclose a cost breakdown, Tesla Motors rates the energy density of its Roadster’s pack at 121 watt-hours per kilogram. Envia said its energy-density performance was verified in testing of prototype cells at the Naval Service Warfare Center’s Crane evaluation division.
If this turns out to be as big as it looks, the EV just became cost and range competitive with gas/diesel cars. Tesla gets just over 200 miles per charge. With the same weight battery from Envia it would get near 700. Call it 500 miles to be conservative. That's all the driving you need to do in a day. Also makes storing wind/solar a viable option with a smart grid.
I don't have a lot of experience with vampires, but I have hunted werewolves. I shot one once, but by the time I got to it, it had turned back into my neighbor's dog.
I'd be interested to see what the cost for repair might be. When the battery for a Tesla gives out, isn't it supposed to be really fucking expensive to repair?
I'm not sure about the validity though since I *think* I saw it in some op-ed Sarah Palin wrote, and while I don't think she's as stupid as she comes off as, I don't know that I'd normally be comfortable citing a statement of hers to back up an argument.
"Gentle in what you do, Firm in how you do it"
- Buck Brannaman
baffled wrote:I'd be interested to see what the cost for repair might be. When the battery for a Tesla gives out, isn't it supposed to be really fucking expensive to repair?
I'm not sure about the validity though since I *think* I saw it in some op-ed Sarah Palin wrote, and while I don't think she's as stupid as she comes off as, I don't know that I'd normally be comfortable citing a statement of hers to back up an argument.
As the IG resident man-who-makes-his-living-in-the-battery-business, I say yes, they are really fucking expensive, but likely not the $40k figure that is making the rounds of Obama-hate emails. The results in the article, if real and repeatable, do more to verify the potential of EVs than signal the end of the combustible era.
baffled wrote:I'd be interested to see what the cost for repair might be. When the battery for a Tesla gives out, isn't it supposed to be really fucking expensive to repair?
I'm not sure about the validity though since I *think* I saw it in some op-ed Sarah Palin wrote, and while I don't think she's as stupid as she comes off as, I don't know that I'd normally be comfortable citing a statement of hers to back up an argument.
As the IG resident man-who-makes-his-living-in-the-battery-business, I say yes, they are really fucking expensive, but likely not the $40k figure that is making the rounds of Obama-hate emails. The results in the article, if real and repeatable, do more to verify the potential of EVs than signal the end of the combustible era.
I'd forgotten you sold batteries for a living. Even if the thing cost 25% of the $40k in these emails, that's a shit ton.
Any idea as to the lifespan and failure rates in the current batteries? I saw ~3 years on average for the lifespan of some type of battery for the EV at Wikipedia but didn't notice much else that was current and looked legit.
"Gentle in what you do, Firm in how you do it"
- Buck Brannaman
There's also some research on fast-charging going on that if it pans out, would cut the charging time of batteries by about a factor of 10. Combine the two, and a lot of objections to electric evaporate.
baffled wrote:I'd be interested to see what the cost for repair might be. When the battery for a Tesla gives out, isn't it supposed to be really fucking expensive to repair?
I'm not sure about the validity though since I *think* I saw it in some op-ed Sarah Palin wrote, and while I don't think she's as stupid as she comes off as, I don't know that I'd normally be comfortable citing a statement of hers to back up an argument.
As the IG resident man-who-makes-his-living-in-the-battery-business, I say yes, they are really fucking expensive, but likely not the $40k figure that is making the rounds of Obama-hate emails. The results in the article, if real and repeatable, do more to verify the potential of EVs than signal the end of the combustible era.
Do you keep an eye on the ultra-capacitor technology? Woefully less power storage than batteries, but instant charge/discharge and no limit on cycles. I've heard that combined cap/battery systems could be pretty slick.
baffled wrote:I'd be interested to see what the cost for repair might be. When the battery for a Tesla gives out, isn't it supposed to be really fucking expensive to repair?
I'm not sure about the validity though since I *think* I saw it in some op-ed Sarah Palin wrote, and while I don't think she's as stupid as she comes off as, I don't know that I'd normally be comfortable citing a statement of hers to back up an argument.
As the IG resident man-who-makes-his-living-in-the-battery-business, I say yes, they are really fucking expensive, but likely not the $40k figure that is making the rounds of Obama-hate emails. The results in the article, if real and repeatable, do more to verify the potential of EVs than signal the end of the combustible era.
Do you keep an eye on the ultra-capacitor technology? Woefully less power storage than batteries, but instant charge/discharge and no limit on cycles. I've heard that combined cap/battery systems could be pretty slick.
No. Our franchisor probably has a nerd or two who do, but they haven't sent anything to us about ultra-capacitors.
baffled wrote:I'd forgotten you sold batteries for a living. Even if the thing cost 25% of the $40k in these emails, that's a shit ton.
Any idea as to the lifespan and failure rates in the current batteries? I saw ~3 years on average for the lifespan of some type of battery for the EV at Wikipedia but didn't notice much else that was current and looked legit.
The Tesla uses lithium cells that are essentially identical to those in laptop or cell phone batteries. (But on a bigger scale, like 6,000 cells as opposed to 6 in a laptop battery) So, I would guess 3-5 years, depending on proper maintenance. A better way to predict lifespan is to know how many cycles the battery is typically good for. Most lithium batteries are good for 500-700 charge/discharge cycles. So for daily cycling, you'd be lucky to get 2 years.
Failure rates are well under 1%, but that means very little to you when it is your battery that failed.
Big if. Until it's proven, and production increases to the point that the cost comes down (making it viable for people who don't primarily buy for environmental reasons), it just has potential.
Alfred_E._Neuman wrote: Also makes storing wind/solar a viable option with a smart grid.
Smart grid doesn't store energy-- it just gives utilities the tools to become more efficient with their labor and their electricity. Most likely the cost of storing electricity will be too high to be viable, at least over the next decade or so. Only relative drops in cost of solar/wind will make them viable, and even then for only a portion of our electricity needs. And once electric cars start getting used on a large scale-- it's likely that electricity needs will actually increase, even if people primarily charge during off peak hours.
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule
Big if. Until it's proven, and production increases to the point that the cost comes down (making it viable for people who don't primarily buy for environmental reasons), it just has potential.
Alfred_E._Neuman wrote: Also makes storing wind/solar a viable option with a smart grid.
Smart grid doesn't store energy-- it just gives utilities the tools to become more efficient with their labor and their electricity. Most likely the cost of storing electricity will be too high to be viable, at least over the next decade or so. Only relative drops in cost of solar/wind will make them viable, and even then for only a portion of our electricity needs. And once electric cars start getting used on a large scale-- it's likely that electricity needs will actually increase, even if people primarily charge during off peak hours.
Definitely a big IF. But the fact that they're not touting it as some technology in the lab that's just a decade away, but actually have it ready for production, makes me hopeful.
What I mean by this being a breakthrough for intermittent alternatives like wind/solar via a smart grid is that power companies can communicate with EVs that have excess capacity to store energy when the wind is blowing or sun is shining and then feed it back into the grid when the wind dies down or at night. That true 2-way smart grid is a ways off, but it's a necessary development if we want to power any significant number of EVs.
Another benefit if a huge range jump, say up to 500 miles per charge, is that it makes it easier to charge with solar. If you're commute is 20 miles each way, that's only 200 miles of driving a week. A few solar panels on the roof can charge your car if you know you don't need a full charge every day. One good sunny day a week that gives you your 500 miles will be enough, rather than having to nearly drain the car's battery to get to work and back comfortably.
I don't have a lot of experience with vampires, but I have hunted werewolves. I shot one once, but by the time I got to it, it had turned back into my neighbor's dog.
baffled wrote:I'd forgotten you sold batteries for a living. Even if the thing cost 25% of the $40k in these emails, that's a shit ton.
Any idea as to the lifespan and failure rates in the current batteries? I saw ~3 years on average for the lifespan of some type of battery for the EV at Wikipedia but didn't notice much else that was current and looked legit.
The Tesla uses lithium cells that are essentially identical to those in laptop or cell phone batteries. (But on a bigger scale, like 6,000 cells as opposed to 6 in a laptop battery) So, I would guess 3-5 years, depending on proper maintenance. A better way to predict lifespan is to know how many cycles the battery is typically good for. Most lithium batteries are good for 500-700 charge/discharge cycles. So for daily cycling, you'd be lucky to get 2 years.
Failure rates are well under 1%, but that means very little to you when it is your battery that failed.
Maybe you know the answer to this:
I was under the impression that the 5-7 hundred cycle life was for the damage done with full cycles, i.e. nearly 100% full to nearly empty. But the Prius, Tesla and other auto batteries only run from 20% to 80% charge so they stay well away from the extremes of a full charge or discharge, and this greatly increases the number of cycles the batteries will take.
I don't have a lot of experience with vampires, but I have hunted werewolves. I shot one once, but by the time I got to it, it had turned back into my neighbor's dog.
In Israel a company is building a network of stations where the battery for electric cars is basically hot-swappable (switch empty battery for full in 2 min, like filling a gas tank). The network owns the batteries themselves.
It's not practical here yet because of the limited range currently possible, but it's inevitable that electric will surpass I.C.E. cars.
One of the downsides of the Internet is that it allows like-minded people to form communities, and sometimes those communities are stupid.
Grandpa's Spells wrote:In Israel a company is building a network of stations where the battery for electric cars is basically hot-swappable (switch empty battery for full in 2 min, like filling a gas tank). The network owns the batteries themselves.
It's not practical here yet because of the limited range currently possible, but it's inevitable that electric will surpass I.C.E. cars.
I really liked that idea when I first saw it. It lets charging happen at designated stations where current can be ramped up to commercial levels for fast charging. And it takes away range anxiety. As long as there is another swapping station on your route, you're good to go.
The only drawback is that it makes all EV makers use the same battery. It took auto makers forever just to agree on the plug design for current models. I think in the long term that system will limit how fast battery technology could come to market.
I don't have a lot of experience with vampires, but I have hunted werewolves. I shot one once, but by the time I got to it, it had turned back into my neighbor's dog.
protobuilder wrote:Big Peach: was it hard to get a job in Wal Mart's camera/battery department? What was the application process like?
If you knew that batteries had polarity, Walmart considered you to be overqualified.
Our stores (my family has several franchise locations, so my qualifications are non-existent) get about 35% of our traffic from frustrated customers of Wal-Mart, Best Buy, and the big box home improvement stores.
baffled wrote:I'd forgotten you sold batteries for a living. Even if the thing cost 25% of the $40k in these emails, that's a shit ton.
Any idea as to the lifespan and failure rates in the current batteries? I saw ~3 years on average for the lifespan of some type of battery for the EV at Wikipedia but didn't notice much else that was current and looked legit.
The Tesla uses lithium cells that are essentially identical to those in laptop or cell phone batteries. (But on a bigger scale, like 6,000 cells as opposed to 6 in a laptop battery) So, I would guess 3-5 years, depending on proper maintenance. A better way to predict lifespan is to know how many cycles the battery is typically good for. Most lithium batteries are good for 500-700 charge/discharge cycles. So for daily cycling, you'd be lucky to get 2 years.
Failure rates are well under 1%, but that means very little to you when it is your battery that failed.
Maybe you know the answer to this:
I was under the impression that the 5-7 hundred cycle life was for the damage done with full cycles, i.e. nearly 100% full to nearly empty. But the Prius, Tesla and other auto batteries only run from 20% to 80% charge so they stay well away from the extremes of a full charge or discharge, and this greatly increases the number of cycles the batteries will take.
Cycles for lithium batteries can be very light or very deep and you'll still get the same 500-700. I've heard that the Volt has been programmed to display a 0 mile range even when the battery is nearly 50%. This has two effects; one, obviously, is that it gets the driver to charge up well before running out, and two, keeps the battery from draining completely. Lithium, particularly laptop batteries, can have their voltage dropped so low that traditional charging can't bring it back. An unbearably slow trickle charge and some nice talk to the battery's smart-chip is all that will do it.
As for staying away from 100% charge, it makes sense if that is the case because once you hit 100%, any more current going into the cells will just create excess heat, which will slowly degrade the cells.
cleaner464 wrote:Fuck you and your green agenda you hippies. Drill, baby, drill!!!
Where does lithium come from anyway?
The pharmacist.
"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy.
It is our job to see that it stays there." - George Orwell
