The Fiscal Cliff

[buckethead]

Please to tell me exactly why we want to avoid this? Sounds like the best of both parties.

To do so, the committee agreed to implement by law — if no other deal was reached before Dec. 31 — massive government spending cuts as well as tax increases or a return to tax levels from previous years. These are the elements that make up the 'fiscal cliff.'

http://www.cnbc.com/id/49464221/?What_I ... scal_Cliff

[Blaidd Drwg]

Please to tell me exactly why we want to avoid this? Sounds like the best of both parties.

To do so, the committee agreed to implement by law — if no other deal was reached before Dec. 31 — massive government spending cuts as well as tax increases or a return to tax levels from previous years. These are the elements that make up the 'fiscal cliff.'

http://www.cnbc.com/id/49464221/?What_I ... scal_Cliff

It's a bit dated...but.

I think the discomfort of....

The removal of $600 billion from the national economy (tax increases plus spending cuts) would cause the national economy to shrink by 1.3% in the first half of 2013, with unemployment increasing to 9%. The economy should begin to recover in the second half of 2013.

The automatic cuts in federal spending would have a particularly significant impact on the defense industry, which would be faced with extremely large employment reductions.

One unknown would be the reaction of the bond rating agencies. Would they hold steady or even increase the nation’s bond rating in reaction to the potential significant federal debt reduction over the next decade? Would they downgrade the nation’s bond rating due to the failure of our national political leadership to achieve agreement over a debt reduction package?

http://www.vnf.com/news-policyupdates-765.html

[buckethead]

So. Isn't this the tough love everyone says is inevitable?

[Blaidd Drwg]

So. Isn't this the tough love everyone says is inevitable?

Yes...but some of us aren't done stocking up on all the ammo Darth projects we'll need.

[Turdacious]

Effective tax rates on the rich should go up, not gross ones.

And this trend kills tax revenue and jobs:

[Fat Cat]

Please to tell me exactly why we want to avoid this? Sounds like the best of both parties.

To do so, the committee agreed to implement by law — if no other deal was reached before Dec. 31 — massive government spending cuts as well as tax increases or a return to tax levels from previous years. These are the elements that make up the 'fiscal cliff.'

http://www.cnbc.com/id/49464221/?What_I ... scal_Cliff

Yeah, its a bit like gridlock in congress, not necessarily a bad thing.

[Andy83]

So. Isn't this the tough love everyone says is inevitable?

Yes. Tough love for everyone except the politicians that squandered all our money.

[Bob Wildes]

So. Isn't this the tough love everyone says is inevitable?

Yes...but some of us aren't done stocking up on all the ammo Darth projects we'll need.

If you shoot well early you can restore your larder with someone else's shit.

[Batboy2/75]

Full steam ahead fuckers!

You'll know you're in my AO when you start to see former bureaucrats swinging from lamp posts. Looters will be shot and just left for the crows.

[Alfred_E._Neuman]

So. Isn't this the tough love everyone says is inevitable?

Yes. Tough love for everyone except the politicians that squandered all our money.

Fuck, we keep electing the sons of bitches again and again after they fuck up in the exact same ways every time.

I think this is just the tough love that we'll have to go through eventually to get ourselves back onto stable ground. The two parties should have spent the entire time since the '08 meltdown figuring out how to bring this debt based economy in for a soft landing. The problem is that we're so short sighted that it won't happen and we'll keep rearranging the chairs on the Titanic until it finally slips under the waves.

The problem is that our leaders are a deadly combination of a) short sighted, and b) only concerned about maintaining their power in the next election. Economists were saying for years that we were on a completely unsustainable path - building an entire economy on debt. Yet when we finally hit the iceberg all we did was borrow a WHOLE SHIT LOAD of money to temporarily prop this illusion up for a couple of years. Then we keep borrowing at an ever increasing rate to fund more spending and a couple of pointless fucking wars.

Everybody in the country with an ounce of intelligence knows we have to make some serious changes in how we operate. Every politician even acknowledges the fact. But when faced with tough decisions at the time to actually stand up and lead, they go right back to business as usual to avoid ANY perceived hardships by the American people. Because they know that as soon as it looks like any form of austerity is on the table, the stock markets crash and the pundits start squawking.

Fuck that. It's time to tighten our belts and take our lumps. Come out the other side leaner but hopefully smarter. It'll require real spending cuts from government and more taxes. And an end to policing the world on our (borrowed) dime. And taking protectionist measures to rebuild our manufacturing base. This is a deep fucking hole. And no politician wants to stop digging it deeper.

[Andy83]

PLEASE! No spending cuts! I want my free stuff!

[Pinky]

The sudden, poorly thought out cuts in spending and increase in taxes are very likely to trigger a recession.

Here are two videos, neither properly embedded, that explain the situation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3yZMMMUM7k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_JOGmXpe5I

[Andy83]

The sudden, poorly thought out cuts in spending and increase in taxes are very likely to trigger a recession.

Here are two videos, neither properly embedded, that explain the situation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3yZMMMUM7k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_JOGmXpe5I

I don't care. As long as I get my free stuff.

[buckethead]

The sudden, poorly thought out cuts in spending and increase in taxes are very likely to trigger a recession.

Is a recession unavoidable anyways?

[Batboy2/75]

The sudden, poorly thought out cuts in spending and increase in taxes are very likely to trigger a recession.

Is a recession unavoidable anyways?

All one has to do is look at the Federal ledger to see how fucked we are. Not only are we bleeding red, but our future obligations are massive. If we were a business that had to follow standard accounting practices and reporting, no one in their right mind would question we are going down the toilet.

I predict within the next six months that not only will taxes be going up, but the Confiscation of all 401K, IRAs, and private pensions will be seriously discussed and probably happen. Followed by a massive devaluation of the dollar. The beast must be fed.

There isn't a politician with the influence, common sense, and or the stones to fix this issue. The politicians have created a monster of huge proportions. Any talk of cutting back Will anger the infants that make up the American populace and end in riots. The coward pols will grasp at anything to feed the beast. Like some crack addict whore They will strip the USA bear of anything of value to keep the fix coming.

[Freki]

The sudden, poorly thought out cuts in spending and increase in taxes are very likely to trigger a recession.

Is a recession unavoidable anyways?

All one has to do is look at the Federal ledger to see how fucked we are. Not only are we bleeding red, but our future obligations are massive. If we were a business that had to follow standard accounting practices and reporting, no one in their right mind would question we are going down the toilet.

I predict within the next six months that not only will taxes be going up, but the Confiscation of all 401K, IRAs, and private pensions will be seriously discussed and probably happen. Followed by a massive devaluation of the dollar. The beast must be fed.

There isn't a politician with the influence, common sense, and or the stones to fix this issue. The politicians have created a monster of huge proportions. Any talk of cutting back Will anger the infants that make up the American populace and end in riots. The coward pols will grasp at anything to feed the beast. Like some crack addict whore They will strip the USA bear of anything of value to keep the fix coming.

Revenue enhancements, please get the newspeak right.

I think several rounds of "wealth taxes" on the retirement accounts will happen before full confiscation. Wasn't that seriously talked about during the Clinton years? Not necessarily him but in Congress. In fact, a quick google.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 55032.html

Congress Eyes 401(k)s Again

Some of the most popular retirement-savings tools are coming under the congressional microscope.

As policy makers gear up for the tax-reform effort expected after the presidential election, they are asking: Can 401(k) plans, individual retirement accounts, and other tax-deferred vehicles be streamlined while getting more traction among people with lower incomes?

But remember, it'll be for the children and those less fortunate.

Never mind I've been socking away in mine for almost 20 years. It wasn't b/c I was fortunate and that extra cash wouldn't have come in handy now and again. Had to prioritize though...

[Turdacious]

It's the taxes on businesses that don't give the government revenue that are the biggest problem. And estate taxes are largely a subsidy to life insurance companies.

[odin]

So. Isn't this the tough love everyone says is inevitable?

Yes. Tough love for everyone except the politicians that squandered all our money.

Yes, this is what we have had in the UK. Repeat the mantra that we have to cut - no other choice - and set about your middle and working classes with a butchers knife and protect your super rich buddies. A socialist sounding argument, but pretty fucking valid.

The more I read about, see and understand the current economic climate and the political response to it, the less empowered I feel as an individual. The crash we've all just experienced should - imo - be a prompt for everyone to start asking some fundamental questions about how we want to organise society, our economy and our politics, as the previous incarnations were clearly not working. Yet at best we get a few token bits of regulation or similar thrown about. I just think the whole thing needs a more radical shake up.

[Alfred_E._Neuman]

So. Isn't this the tough love everyone says is inevitable?

Yes. Tough love for everyone except the politicians that squandered all our money.

Yes, this is what we have had in the UK. Repeat the mantra that we have to cut - no other choice - and set about your middle and working classes with a butchers knife and protect your super rich buddies. A socialist sounding argument, but pretty fucking valid.

The more I read about, see and understand the current economic climate and the political response to it, the less empowered I feel as an individual. The crash we've all just experienced should - imo - be a prompt for everyone to start asking some fundamental questions about how we want to organise society, our economy and our politics, as the previous incarnations were clearly not working. Yet at best we get a few token bits of regulation or similar thrown about. I just think the whole thing needs a more radical shake up.

I think it goes back to career politicians and the corporations to which they're beholden. All they think about is the next election and making sure they keep their power for another 2-4 years. They'll do whatever it takes to keep the status quo ticking along because radical change makes people uneasy and could lead to them losing the next election or the funding from their corporate masters. As soon as Wall Street threatens to derail the economy, you can rest assured money will be printed and borrowed to keep the dinosaur lumbering along through the next election cycle.

Take Obama's speech about the fiscal cliff today. As soon as he made mention that to get financial solvency as a Nation we'll have to both cut government AND raise revenue (taxes), the market immediately responded by dropping 40 points. And everybody with a brain knows this is how things are going to have to shake out. But nobody is willing to stand up and tell the American people that this medicine is going to hurt for a bit before it cures.

[baffled]

The Feds take in something like a little less than $200 billion/month in revenues.

If that number is correct (and I'm not saying it is, since I can't remember where I read it), I have a hard time believing we need higher taxes. We need to cut defense spending. We need to cut entitlements for the elderly (aka, people who have had a lifetime to save and prepare) instead of taxing the young who are just getting started in making money.

We need to make real reforms to preserve safety nets for the truly needy, and put other people out on their own two feet.

I'll go back to praying for unicorns now.

second edit: Stopping foreign aid would be a great start too.

[Batboy2/75]

The Feds take in something like a little less than $200 billion/month in revenues.

If that number is correct (and I'm not saying it is, since I can't remember where I read it), I have a hard time believing we need higher taxes. We need to cut defense spending. We need to cut entitlements for the elderly (aka, people who have had a lifetime to save and prepare) instead of taxing the young who are just getting started in making money.

We need to make real reforms to preserve safety nets for the truly needy, and put other people out on their own two feet.

I'll go back to praying for unicorns now.

second edit: Stopping foreign aid would be a great start too.

Safety net? I love that term. We have a fucking safety Bark O Lounger.

My sister in law was recently sniveling about her unemployment running out after 2 fucking years. 2 years she spent getting a graduate degree with government grants, loans, and other goodies; and not one day looking for a job. She was skills training. Getting a graduate degree that is useless without getting a PHD and having the connections in Acedemia to score an teaching job at a University.

Bitch was living large. When she wasn't in school, she was spending her excess Uncle sugar money on a boat & vacations to Hawaii and Vegas. And yes, her dumb ass voted for Barack "Old St. Nick" Obama.

[lasalle]

So the narrative that Obama is giving free handouts comes primarily from the red states, who are net tax TAKERS from blue states



http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/eco ... eir-taxes-

And those sucking on the government tit of military defense spending:

Still the Biggest Kid on the Block
Even if the $55 billion is sequestered from defense spending, the US would still dwarf the next two military giants, China and Russia.
According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, America spent $711 billion on defense in 2011. China and Russia, which have both seen major increases in military spending since 2002, were at $143 billion and $71.9 billion, respectively.
Despite any proposed cuts, “the US will remain by far the world’s major military superpower and the only NATO member capable of sustaining large air-sea operations or of projecting substantial ground forces on a global scale for a sustained period,” the International Institute for Strategic Studies said in a March 2012 report.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20121101/177116921.html

What a fucking joke. Run it over the cliff-and then when we're ready to get real about it, cut military spending and trim Medicare spending. Problem solved.

[Batboy2/75]

So the narrative that Obama is giving free handouts comes primarily from the red states, who are net tax TAKERS from blue states



http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/eco ... eir-taxes-

And those sucking on the government tit of military defense spending:

Still the Biggest Kid on the Block
Even if the $55 billion is sequestered from defense spending, the US would still dwarf the next two military giants, China and Russia.
According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, America spent $711 billion on defense in 2011. China and Russia, which have both seen major increases in military spending since 2002, were at $143 billion and $71.9 billion, respectively.
Despite any proposed cuts, “the US will remain by far the world’s major military superpower and the only NATO member capable of sustaining large air-sea operations or of projecting substantial ground forces on a global scale for a sustained period,” the International Institute for Strategic Studies said in a March 2012 report.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20121101/177116921.html

What a fucking joke. Run it over the cliff-and then when we're ready to get real about it, cut military spending and trim Medicare spending. Problem solved.

LOL, yes, trim, cut, slash the military budget and everyhing else. However, our problem is entitlement spending is twice as much as the military budget and are projected to grow. Plus, when you are spending 40-50% more than you take in revenue, you're not talking about trimming anything. It's slash and burn time.

As a former CA resident I know how this plays out. Politicians will claim they are trimming things to the bone, in order to secure tax increases. Somehow the budget cuts don't happen and or miss obvious fruad and waste. Then the tax increases don't bring in the projected revenue. More tax increases are demanded, more fake budget cuts are announced and the process begins a new.

[Turdacious]

It's not that simple-- one of the reasons our military spending is higher is because we spend more per service member than Russia and China do (pay, benefits, medical care, death benefits, etc...). Individual service members are much more highly valued here.

[buckethead]

Yes, it's the pay and benefits. It's quite obvious that most of the $473,000/yr for every active duty member goes toward their pay and benefits.