The Book of Not Knowing

buckethead · Post by **buckethead** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:52 am

I guess I'll try again.

Hebrew Hammer wrote:It's your explanation that I find difficult to understand.

That is evident

Hebrew Hammer wrote:I don't get what you're moved by

That is evident

Hebrew Hammer wrote:it sounds to me like a 60's parody, and a recipe for detached, disinterested living.

Maybe, in some new-age hippie compound, but again, this thread has mentioned nowhere any implication of detachment or disinterest. To the contrary, my menial study in this IMA has made the most mundane life tasks quite interesting when I choose to engage

Hebrew Hammer wrote:I didn't intend the uniform analogy to be about uniforms. It was about the role of belief in an engaged, passionate life...

I know what you meant and I explained that there is a possibility that concepts such as beliefs may not need to be a key ingredient for engaged, passionate life

Hebrew Hammer wrote:...and about how paralyzing and futile it would be to contemplate disinterested non-meaning and reality.

why do you add on the words "paralyzing", "futile", and "disinterested"? I have found the exact opposite.

nafod · Post by **nafod** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:11 am

Hebrew Hammer wrote:It was about the role of belief in an engaged, passionate life, and about how paralyzing and futile it would be to contemplate disinterested non-meaning and reality.

I see it differently. I see it as, if you sharpen your sword first, it will cut better.

Hebrew Hammer · Post by **Hebrew Hammer** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:21 pm

BucketHead wrote:I guess I'll try again.
Hebrew Hammer wrote:I didn't intend the uniform analogy to be about uniforms. It was about the role of belief in an engaged, passionate life...
I know what you meant and I explained that there is a possibility that concepts such as beliefs may not need to be a key ingredient for engaged, passionate life.

This is what I find hard to comprehend. When I think of any question in life that's personally meaningful, belief is what guides living life well, and deep, well-considered beliefs that point true North make life living very well. Do I spend time working or with my family? Do I save all my money or give to charity? Do I go out of my way to treat people kindly or or do I focus only on myself. Do I risk my savings to invest in my business or do I cut bait? Do I try to teach my son values and beliefs so that he will lead a decent, fulfilling life? Do I trust the person trying to sell me insurance or do I not? Should I forgive someone who hurt me?

So how does one make these decisions without beliefs? And why would I want to?

BucketHead wrote:
Hebrew Hammer wrote:...and about how paralyzing and futile it would be to contemplate disinterested non-meaning and reality.
why do you add on the words "paralyzing", "futile", and "disinterested"? I have found the exact opposite.

Can you give me a simple example? It all sounds like mush without a simple example. But also your answer contradicts itself. If you've found the exact opposite, you have a deep belief that the opposite is effective.

Hebrew Hammer · Post by **Hebrew Hammer** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:25 pm

nafod wrote:
Hebrew Hammer wrote:It was about the role of belief in an engaged, passionate life, and about how paralyzing and futile it would be to contemplate disinterested non-meaning and reality.
I see it differently. I see it as, if you sharpen your sword first, it will cut better.

If non-knowing means sharpening your sword, it would be better to say "sharpen your sword -- read, be open to challenges, deepen your knowledge, be as well-prepared as you can be to act." But non-knowing seems to me to be different -- either a post-modern, nihilist project or an invitation to contemplation without action.

nafod · Post by **nafod** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:37 pm

You have an extraordinarily well formed opinion on something that you really know almost nothing about (the book) unless you've been reading it too and keeping it a secret. What did you use to fill in the gaps in your knowledge? What is your opinion truly based on here?

Hebrew Hammer · Post by **Hebrew Hammer** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:55 pm

I know nothing about the book other than Bux's review and the title. What puzzles me is what ideas Bux found interesting or helpful in the book. Based on his write-up, the ideas seem like nonsense. That may just be his write-up or it may have been my failing to understand what he wrote. That's why I asked for an example. You also ventured your opinions on what the notion of non-knowing might mean, but that made no sense to me either.

Shaun B. O'Murnecan · Post by **Shaun B. O'Murnecan** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:23 pm

nafod wrote:You have an extraordinarily well formed opinion on something that you really know almost nothing about (the book) unless you've been reading it too and keeping it a secret. What did you use to fill in the gaps in your knowledge? What is your opinion truly based on here?

Not-Knowing.

Fat Cat · Post by **Fat Cat** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:46 am

he's trolling you bux

buckethead · Post by **buckethead** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:27 am

I believe you are right

Hebrew Hammer · Post by **Hebrew Hammer** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:34 am

BucketHead wrote:I believe you are right

Actually wrong. I find the fascination with not-knowing or other Zen-like philosophies often to be nonsensical and filled with lots of hocus pocus. You mentioned a serious book, and I thought you might explain what you see in it beyond mystical incantations.

buckethead · Post by **buckethead** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:12 am

You are obviously trolling but I'm on travel and have extra time. Please cite some nonsensical hocus pocus or mystical incantations discussed in this thread?

Shaun B. O'Murnecan · Post by **Shaun B. O'Murnecan** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:01 am

Bux, you realize this ain't going nowhere. Really you are both are right. Ralston is confusing a lot of stuff at once. If he cut the ontology and epistemology and stayed within the context of some pyscho-somatic practice, I think everyone would more readily agree.

Hebe is a dyed in the wool naive "classical" Platonist. He has said as much. Better off just reading the wiki page about so-called classical Platonism than get into a pissing match with him.

For further reading, check out Leibniz and Spinoza. Bet the Hebe likes those as well.

Unfortunately, for the Hebe he will have to realize eventually that to deal with serious ontology, which he claims contains the most surprising and worthwhile questions to ponder (something rather than nothing), he will have to bow down to the Nazi.

For this thread not to spin out to sophistry or ambling references to material all us have not seriously read (see what I have written above), it would probably be easier to simply state your experience as concretely as possible.

How has the practice the book suggests specifically changed / informed your experience / life?

To be fair, that is what the Hebe is asking for and is probably the most instructive and interesting aspect of any discussion of this nature.

Avoiding nebulous words like: reality, belief, self, etc. Would probably also help keep the discussion from becoming college coffee shop argument.

I don't think the Hebe is trolling FWIW. I think he is just too boring to ever be that insincere.

buckethead · Post by **buckethead** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:09 am

Ok Norm, fair enough. My first forays into IMA were fraught with conflict between very empowering and relaxing mind-body experiences tainted with pseudo-science of chi.

Then someone here recommended Principles of Effortless Power and I have been practicing his 5-points for literally hours a day - through taiji, while running, with kettlebells, mowing the grass, doing the dishes (one of my favorites) - every day. Though it is subtle and sometimes frustrating, this practice has been continuously interesting and thoroughly worthwhile - all without the stupidity of chi.

Ralston claims that he first investigated the ontological stuff to help his martial arts but somewhere that reversed in priority for him. I completely get that. I have no care to excel at martial arts but this shit has been a learning factory for me. I am much more engaged in life and have had awesome breakthroughs.

So, even though I've read Ralston's other books and took some correspondence courses with him, I never had a good sense of this "other" side of Cheng Hsin - the contemplation and consciousness practice. That's why I quickly bought this book. I got it at the end of January and didn't finish until mid-April. So I've had a paltry 2 months to practice contemplation. I have found it much more difficult than the IMA - probably because I have a long history of being analytical and cerebral. However I can point to a handful of times that I have experienced a greater sense of myself, and Im still very interested in practicing.

Other than this practice of contemplation, the rest of the book is dedicated to either recounting Ralston's personal experiences of consciousness or the survival model he holds out for testing that might explain how we came to have struggle and suffering in our existence. But this is just a model because models help expedite learning, often. I especially have found useful the experiment of seeking out and honestly challenging even my most cherished beliefs (God has been a big one). But the difference for me in this challenging has been the request from Ralston not to fill up the void with some other belief - but instead to embrace the disconcerting feeling. This is one of the foundations of a state of not-knowing. I find it fun and enlightening.

The bottom line though is that chi-less IMA has been, by far, the best modality I have tried in that it continues to provide me breakthroughs every time I stop forcing or resisting. Thus, I have little reason to expect any less from the consciousness practices.

buckethead · Post by **buckethead** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:37 am

Of course, after just re-reading my post I'm not sure I did a good job providing "specific examples". The "breakthroughs" I reference seem silly when I try to form them into sentences. Experiencing my foot lifted directly from my center during running. Experiencing the fear sourcing an episode of anger. Experiencing a "horrible" thought originate, fill my whole being and then pass on - not me.

I can attest that these were powerful and transforming but without context they either sound trivial or batshit crazy

Shaun B. O'Murnecan · Post by **Shaun B. O'Murnecan** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:37 pm

BucketHead wrote:Of course, after just re-reading my post I'm not sure I did a good job providing "specific examples". The "breakthroughs" I reference seem silly when I try to form them into sentences. Experiencing my foot lifted directly from my center during running. Experiencing the fear sourcing an episode of anger. Experiencing a "horrible" thought originate, fill my whole being and then pass on - not me.

I can attest that these were powerful and transforming but without context they either sound trivial or batshit crazy

I think the bold statement is a legitimate statement of experience and don't think they sound either trivial or batshit crazy.

WTF, are we expecting? Dissolution into the universe? I can approximate that with drugs and alcohol and think I might achieve it with death. It is "small" shit that is a bitch.

Since you've mentioned Ralston, I've read as much of his stuff as I can without spending any money. Getting more honest about how full of shit I am and how much I invest in stuff and controlling relationships with people around me have been informed a lot by what I have read of his stuff. And sharing how full of shit I am with others has been a big piece of the puzzle with me.

Many interesting upshots for me. Would be glad to share them if anyone has interest.

The Hebe is a good guy from all his accounts of his life. I think his concern about abandoning "explicit" principles regarding conduct and service to one's family and community seems reasonable.

In any case, you rec has been helpful.

nafod · Post by **nafod** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:56 pm

I'm still in the early pages, but the book resonates with me so far. I'm not so interested in the self improvement aspect as I am in just understanding and controlling what goes on in the noggin. One of the more interesting things he keeps emphasizing is how we fill in the blanks from what we sense with...what? We fill it in with beliefs, and they come from culture. We do this so fast that we don't realize that we're doing it. Instant narrative to what we see.

Is it possible to halt the process in between sensing and building the instant narrative? I think he is arguing "yes", and that this is the state of not-knowing. I'll let you know in a few hundred pages.

This painting by Magritte is kind of a direct attack on the instant narrative idea. You look at it and your brain says, "Nice pipe." Then it reads, "This is not a pipe." And so, if you're open to it, you say, "Well, OK then..."

But of course if you're from a culture that never had a pipe in it, you'd be saying, "Wonder what that thing is?"

I don't think HH is trolling. And I found it ironical how he filled in the yawning gaps in what he knew about the book with stuff from his beliefs.

Hebrew Hammer · Post by **Hebrew Hammer** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:16 pm

Your answers are what I was wondering about as I do not know much about IMA or other contemplative practices, and much of what I read is filled with goo.

I have trouble with contemplation as an end in itself as I think it can lead to paralysis and withdrawal. But the notion of contemplation as a means to living a richer life I can understand. We're all creatures of habit -- whether we smile, get angry, expect too much, whatever. I think that any tool that helps becoming self-aware and breaking bad habits is good, and I'm always looking to learn.

As to not filling voids with beliefs, that is a powerful concept. Eric Hoffer's True Believer is the most powerful statement I've read about the dangers of irrational belief to fill the void. (I also think this partly explains the world's irrational Israel-hatred, but that topic is beaten to death in other threads.) On the other hand, if taken too far, contemplation-as-a-means can become disabling, dulling our instincts, and separating us from our humanity and the passions of life.

Also, I am too dull to troll.

nafod · Post by **nafod** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:18 pm

Hebrew Hammer wrote:On the other hand, if taken too far, contemplation-as-a-means can become disabling, dulling our instincts, and separating us from our humanity and the passions of life.

Same goes for fitness training, no?

Hebrew Hammer · Post by **Hebrew Hammer** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:25 pm

nafod wrote:
Hebrew Hammer wrote:On the other hand, if taken too far, contemplation-as-a-means can become disabling, dulling our instincts, and separating us from our humanity and the passions of life.
Same goes for fitness training, no?

Oddly enough, we have never had that discussion directly on this board. But fitness fanaticism -- and especially spending as many hours doing it as discussing it -- is narcissism at its best.

The two best books I have read about what goes on in the noggin are Godel, Escher, Bach and I am a Strange Loop by Douglas Hofstader. If you like the pipe picture, you will love these books.

Turdacious · Post by **Turdacious** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:31 pm

Hebrew Hammer wrote: On the other hand, if taken too far, contemplation-as-a-means can become disabling, dulling our instincts, and separating us from our humanity and the passions of life,

It can, but doesn't have to. Many people have separated themselves from society completely and emerged perfectly sane and possessing great wisdom. Personally, I see myself a greater affinity for the logical way of looking at things, but I don't deny that there are other proven paths.

As Andrew Nelson Lytle put it "prophets do not come from cities, promising riches and store clothes. They have always come from the wilderness, stinking of goats and running with lice and telling of a different kind of treasure." This seems very similar to a theme that runs through the Torah.

Fat Cat · Post by **Fat Cat** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:17 am

nafod wrote:I don't think HH is trolling. And I found it ironical how he filled in the yawning gaps in what he knew about the book with stuff from his beliefs.

I am convinced. Your whole post was very well written.

Mickey O'neil · Post by **Mickey O'neil** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:42 pm

I am retarded compared to you guys but I will hopefully be getting this book as a gift soon. Looking forward to it as well as Principles...

There are quite a few other books that I am planning on getting that touch on this subject as well as other books on philosophy.

I find all of this extremely interesting.

Hebrew Hammer · Post by **Hebrew Hammer** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:21 pm

The Unflushable DEATHTURD wrote:
Hebrew Hammer wrote: On the other hand, if taken too far, contemplation-as-a-means can become disabling, dulling our instincts, and separating us from our humanity and the passions of life,
It can, but doesn't have to. Many people have separated themselves from society completely and emerged perfectly sane and possessing great wisdom. Personally, I see myself a greater affinity for the logical way of looking at things, but I don't deny that there are other proven paths.

As Andrew Nelson Lytle put it "prophets do not come from cities, promising riches and store clothes. They have always come from the wilderness, stinking of goats and running with lice and telling of a different kind of treasure." This seems very similar to a theme that runs through the Torah.

Hebrew prophets spoke of religious and moral failings, not withdrawal. E.g., Isaiah speaks of unleashing the chains of slavery, feeding the poor, and clothing the naked. He speaks of contemplation only insofar as it is necessary to realize the wrongness of the Israelite's ways (sanctimonious fasting but not the moral conduct that is demanded as the flip side of fasting) and to repent.

The Hebrew Bible discourages withdrawal and contemplation-as-an-end-in-itself. The nazirite is the exception, but becoming a nazir is not encouraged. Sampson is the best known; while ultimately a hero, the Bible portrays him as having made many foolish decisions.

Turdacious · Post by **Turdacious** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:40 pm

Hebrew Hammer wrote:
The Unflushable DEATHTURD wrote:
Hebrew Hammer wrote: On the other hand, if taken too far, contemplation-as-a-means can become disabling, dulling our instincts, and separating us from our humanity and the passions of life,
It can, but doesn't have to. Many people have separated themselves from society completely and emerged perfectly sane and possessing great wisdom. Personally, I see myself a greater affinity for the logical way of looking at things, but I don't deny that there are other proven paths.

As Andrew Nelson Lytle put it "prophets do not come from cities, promising riches and store clothes. They have always come from the wilderness, stinking of goats and running with lice and telling of a different kind of treasure." This seems very similar to a theme that runs through the Torah.
I guess I'm thinking of the prophets. They tended to come from outside of the more urban society. Also, Jonah gaining wisdom inside the whale, and probably a few others. Didn't some of the founding Hasidic leaders wander around in the forest before coming back to society and leading?

Hebrew prophets spoke of religious and moral failings, not withdrawal. E.g., Isaiah speaks of unleashing the chains of slavery, feeding the poor, and clothing the naked. He speaks of contemplation only insofar as it is necessary to realize the wrongness of the Israelite's ways (sanctimonious fasting but not the moral conduct that is demanded as the flip side of fasting) and to repent.

The Hebrew Bible discourages withdrawal and contemplation-as-an-end-in-itself. The nazirite is the exception, but becoming a nazir is not encouraged. Sampson is the best known; while ultimately a hero, the Bible portrays him as having made many foolish decisions.

Mickey O'neil · Post by **Mickey O'neil** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:04 pm

Bux, was it you that was reading a book about telling yourself the truth and how we lie to ourselves all of the time? If so, what book was that?

Thanks.

IGX

The Book of Not Knowing

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