IGX

Opportunity without guarantee is okay. However, celebrating the start of program before any tangible success is silly.

I wonder if the ASVAB will be lowered?

Dan Martin wrote:I wonder if the ASVAB will be lowered?

Wouldn't matter. Ability to be relaxed in and underwater, ability to handle stress, sleep deprivation, and constant cold immersion is built somewhat by practice and training, but at some level there has to be the strength of charecter to persevere and the strength of desire that you will not quit.

Building inner city pools won't address any of that.

i would bet that recruiting south florida high school wrestling tournaments would pay off...and it does.

Actually, the Navy doesn't need ghetto rats period, let alone in SEALS.

Roving gangbanger Ex SEALS running the drug trade in south central?

Look at the background of effective warriors and you will often find a boyhood of fishing, hunting, and adventuring in the woods.
Examples: Alvin York, Audie Murphy, Anthony Herbert, Carlos Hathcock, Chris Kyle (SEAL sniper with record body count).

Forest rat > Ghetto rat

******

Also, if Act of Valor does well at the Box Office, then SEALs will have no problem getting more more volunteers of all colors. They can then weed out honkies to achieve their desired ratios.

In light of Pres. Obama's frequent use of SEALs for the high profile missions, the Navy had to pay a price.

Obama: I see this photo of SEAL Team Six, where's the Brothas?
Admiral Mullen: There are no black sailors in ST 6, Sir. You know, the low bodyfat thing...they have to swim & be cold...
(Obama pauses, thinking.)
Obama: Adm. Mullen, what's this Army "Delta Force" I keep hearing about?
Mullen: Sir, we'll get Team Six squared away immediately!

It has less to do with race and more to do with where and how you grow up. My guess is the divide is as simple as rural vs urban, regardless of the race.

Gorbachev wrote:65% of NFL players are black.
82% of NBA players are black.
12.2% of Americans are black.
Less than 2% of Seal officers are black.

Fuck. One thing is clear to me. The NBA and NFL need to get off their asses and start mentoring white youth. Those players should be asking some questions.

There are 10 times as many PhDs in chemistry awarded to Chinese than Hispanics. There are 3 times as many PhDs in history awarded to Hispanics than Chinese. Which field/group are the bigots?

I've got no problem with the Navy actively recruiting for more minorities as long as they're not lowering standards, installing quotas, or providing a preparation advantage to blacks that's not available to all other races.

My issue lies in the fact that they're aggressively wasting tax dollars on a what is most likely to be a fruitless endeavor.

What happens when you put people in places based on their special category not their abilities.

I've got no problem with the Navy actively recruiting for more minorities as long as they're not lowering standards, installing quotas, or providing a preparation advantage to blacks that's not available to all other races.

My issue lies in the fact that they're aggressively wasting tax dollars on a what is most likely to be a fruitless endeavor.

Thuth here. This project will fail though. Some thngs cant be taught.

coop wrote:I've got no problem with the Navy actively recruiting for more minorities as long as they're not lowering standards, installing quotas, or providing a preparation advantage to blacks that's not available to all other races.

My issue lies in the fact that they're aggressively wasting tax dollars on a what is most likely to be a fruitless endeavor.

Agreed.

kreator wrote:

coop wrote:I've got no problem with the Navy actively recruiting for more minorities as long as they're not lowering standards, installing quotas, or providing a preparation advantage to blacks that's not available to all other races.

My issue lies in the fact that they're aggressively wasting tax dollars on a what is most likely to be a fruitless endeavor.

Agreed.

Relative to the individual services overall budgets? Chump change.

I've been actively seeing this across communities in the Navy for several years now. Haven't observed a standards change - at least not directly attributable to this particular trend. Where you do see standards changed is based on the economy. When the economy was super hot, the standards got lowered (but don't tell the big heads that) to ensure we had a big enough pool. Reason? Competition with the civilian job market made it harder to recruit the pool of bodies. Now the that economy is not so good, and there's a bit of a drawdown in effect, we are being a bit choosier. It's worked that way for longer than I've been around, and I'm sure it will continue to do so.

As for the diversity drive, there is some logic in looking to have a group of people in the various communities that are more representative of the societal cross-section. Different ways of thinking, ideas and backgrounds/experiences makes for a more responsive collective (or that's the thinking) that as a group can respond better to change and different situations.

An extreme, yet illustrative example: If I put five BDs in an isolated room and give them a complex problem to solve, and then give a group of 5 completely different (experiences, race, sex, religion etc) individuals the same problem I am more likely to get a faster and better solution from the diverse group due to breadth of experience etc.

Now all y'all have to do is get around your bigotry, and be open-minded. Good luck with that. (not directed at kreator or coop specifically)

Pat Buchanan writes in Suicide of a Superpower that the Naval Academy is bending over backwards to admit minorities with last years class being 35% minority. Whites applicants needed an SAT of 600 or higher with all A's and B's to be put on a "slate" of ten applicants, with one being selected. Minority applicants with mid 500 SAT's and many C's are considered "qualified".

Recruit poor divemasters from the Caribbean.

SAR wrote:Recruit poor divemasters from the Caribbean.

Captain Ron

Lol. Single best diver I've ever seen is a 20 something kid in Honduras. Im fairly sure he has gills

The Crawdaddy wrote:
As for the diversity drive, there is some logic in looking to have a group of people in the various communities that are more representative of the societal cross-section. Different ways of thinking, ideas and backgrounds/experiences makes for a more responsive collective (or that's the thinking) that as a group can respond better to change and different situations.

An extreme, yet illustrative example: If I put five BDs in an isolated room and give them a complex problem to solve, and then give a group of 5 completely different (experiences, race, sex, religion etc) individuals the same problem I am more likely to get a faster and better solution from the diverse group due to breadth of experience etc.

Now all y'all have to do is get around your bigotry, and be open-minded. Good luck with that. (not directed at kreator or coop specifically)

Yes, it seems to have some logic to it but it's never been shown, to my knowledge, to be true. It, like much of social "science", is an assumed truth with evidence-based support, if any, provided after the fact and then only on an anecdotal basis. Personal experience suggests a white-only group selected from, say, the liberal northeast, the rural south, the Appalachians and urban NY will be more diverse in experience and view than a group of minorities selected from the same socio-economic classes as their white peers (read the US university system).

Even if this were not true, it is only likely that such 'diversity' would be helpful in improving problem solving in a limited class of problems. If everybody actually believed it was a cure all or even partially true, the professional sports organizations listed above would be tripping over themselves to diversify their teams.

Nobody may make such assertions, of course, because of fear of the group think represented in the last paragraph of your post, in essence capturing the left's thought process-"my way of thinking and opinions are the open minded ones and anybody who disagrees is close-minded." Ironic.

Most importantly, nothing said in the article supports the idea that the goal is to improve the combat capability of the SEALs. This, like the possible reasons minorities might not make it through BUD/S, is assumptive. And nothing new. During my Ranger'ing days (79-88) the subject also came up as to why there were so few minorities. The accusations of racism flew but, in the end, it just turned out that most minority troops weren't interested and had entirely different reasons for joining the service. Even attempts to get the minorities in the unit to make accusations of racism were unsuccessful. In the end, the 'talent' required to get into a spec ops unit starts first and foremost with an intense desire to succeed. It can't be coached or mentored. For even more selective units like Delta even that isn't enough.

Like all the spec ops units, the SEALs are struggling to keep their units 100+% manned so it makes sense to seek out any untapped population of any description. Contrary to popular belief, the SEALs represent a sizable force, with some 2,500 trigger pullers, as compared to, say 1,500 in the entire Ranger Regiment. Yet, the Ranger Regiment struggles to maintain its headcount of properly selected and trained soldiers as well, despite not having to train and maintain the dive mission (with the exception of a limited few Rangers) so the recruiting imperative for the SEALs must be enormous.

The latter is what makes this problem a non-issue to my mind. A full 2/3 of the initial one year train-up of a SEAL is on the combat dive mission. He gets only about as much basic land warfare training as an infantryman. In just a little more time a Ranger has had is basic infantry training, airborne, been through selection (RASP) and learned the requisite individual skill sets required in the Regiment, then completed a full unit train up (wherein another ~25-30% of the ~30% graduating from RASP are eliminated). Seems more effective and efficient when one considers what brought about the build-up of spec ops is two land-locked wars. Go back to the days of the overlap between naval and army special warfare being 10 clicks out from the beach to 10 clicks in from it. Let the SEALs go back to the operations in which they truly have no equal.

Regardless, what has to be guarded against in these units is even a perception that there are 'special cases' immune to the same rules, requirements or passing of muster with peers. This more than any other thing, that standards are never lowered, is the glue that binds. The Ranger Bn is one of the very few, maybe only,organizations with which I've been associated where 'standard' truly meant every swinging richard.

SAR wrote:Lol. Single best diver I've ever seen is a 20 something kid in Honduras. Im fairly sure he has gills

When I spent some time in Jamaica I saw plenty of 20 somethings jumping from 60-70 feet cliffs into the ocean below, come up for air, and then free dive for about +2 mins all while high as kites.

According to ABC, SEALs disproportionately come from California, the upper midwest, and New England. Seems that growing up near cold water, be it lakes or ocean, is an advantage.
Oh, and I can only speak about the upper midwest, but there aren't a whole lot of black folks except for North Omaha and North Minneapolis neighborhoods. Maybe Frogtown and Lowertown in St Paul, but the Hmongs are taking over those shitholes.

Oh, and the same report corroborated PL54's assertion about recruiting wrestlers. Rasslers, runners, and swimmers were reported to be more likely to pass than team sports players.

The Crawdaddy wrote:

An extreme, yet illustrative example: If I put five BDs in an isolated room and give them a complex problem to solve, and then give a group of 5 completely different (experiences, race, sex, religion etc) individuals the same problem I am more likely to get a faster and better solution from the diverse group due to breadth of experience etc.

Now all y'all have to do is get around your bigotry, and be open-minded. Good luck with that. (not directed at kreator or coop specifically)

Nah...The One True Wolf would emerge killing all who entered the room.

As an aside, I think you're idealizing. Diversity of background is actually a confounder to team dynamics, what might influence the outcome is if you gave the group a carburetor problem and not one BD knew how to do that, whereas one member of the Diverse group did. In this case, BD knows carbs and fuel injection, can plumb and frame, knows how to gut a deer, set a bone, compose a haiku, site a rifle and can do elaborate works of Shibari...so your point is null.

In all seriousity....racial or cultural diversity is interesting but rarely contributes to a "better" outcome in any sense historical or otherwise. Diversity of experience and depth of experience is what solves problems, commonality of experience and commitment to the same goals is what makes good teams.

The Crawdaddy wrote:

kreator wrote:

coop wrote:I've got no problem with the Navy actively recruiting for more minorities as long as they're not lowering standards, installing quotas, or providing a preparation advantage to blacks that's not available to all other races.

My issue lies in the fact that they're aggressively wasting tax dollars on a what is most likely to be a fruitless endeavor.

Agreed.

Relative to the individual services overall budgets? Chump change.

I've been actively seeing this across communities in the Navy for several years now. Haven't observed a standards change - at least not directly attributable to this particular trend. Where you do see standards changed is based on the economy. When the economy was super hot, the standards got lowered (but don't tell the big heads that) to ensure we had a big enough pool. Reason? Competition with the civilian job market made it harder to recruit the pool of bodies. Now the that economy is not so good, and there's a bit of a drawdown in effect, we are being a bit choosier. It's worked that way for longer than I've been around, and I'm sure it will continue to do so.

As for the diversity drive, there is some logic in looking to have a group of people in the various communities that are more representative of the societal cross-section. Different ways of thinking, ideas and backgrounds/experiences makes for a more responsive collective (or that's the thinking) that as a group can respond better to change and different situations.

An extreme, yet illustrative example: If I put five BDs in an isolated room and give them a complex problem to solve, and then give a group of 5 completely different (experiences, race, sex, religion etc) individuals the same problem I am more likely to get a faster and better solution from the diverse group due to breadth of experience etc.

Now all y'all have to do is get around your bigotry, and be open-minded. Good luck with that. (not directed at kreator or coop specifically)

Actually I'm not bigoted at all. What did I say that that you could even remotely construe it that way?
I only agreed that it's probably not fiscally worth it to spend money on aggressive recruiting to communities that aren't really interested in being recruited.

I do agree in general with your point though.

But can you give an example of when the community standards for NSW have been lowered, either due to the economy or for any other reason? I don't believe they have.

The Crawdaddy wrote:
An extreme, yet illustrative example: If I put five BDs in an isolated room and give them a complex problem to solve, and then give a group of 5 completely different (experiences, race, sex, religion etc) individuals the same problem I am more likely to get a faster and better solution from the diverse group due to breadth of experience etc.

Proof? That sort of statement is the PC line from most HR types/B schools. Big difference between diversity of experience and skills versus diversity of race, religion, and sex.