Free speech in Ohio schools? .... Meh, not so much....

The Crawdaddy · Post by **The Crawdaddy** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:56 pm

Interesting. Evidently my ex-home state is even more tight-assed than I thought.

Constitution? What's that?

johno · Post by **johno** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:14 pm

Next they'll be depriving HS students of the right to drink, vote, make legal contracts, marry, or serve in the military.

"This is not America."

Pinky · Post by **Pinky** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:27 pm

Since when do HS students have the right to free speech at school?

Testiclaw · Post by **Testiclaw** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:34 pm

The Supreme Court has had several cases which ruled in favor of school administrators in regard to limiting expression and speech of students, even when no educational disruption takes place.

What better way to teach our children that rights aren't really rights if they can be taken away, than to limit their rights in schools?

Testiclaw · Post by **Testiclaw** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:34 pm

Pinky wrote:Since when do HS students have the right to free speech at school?

The SCOTUS does have a few instances of ruling in the students favor when it comes to free speech, but they're few and far between, and becoming less and less common.

nafod · Post by **nafod** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:36 pm

They're there to learn reading, writing, and arithmetic. Everything else is diversion.

Testiclaw · Post by **Testiclaw** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:50 pm

nafod wrote:They're there to learn reading, writing, and arithmetic. Everything else is diversion.

I'd strongly disagree.

Grandpa's Spells · Post by **Grandpa's Spells** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:03 pm

Testiclaw wrote:
nafod wrote:They're there to learn reading, writing, and arithmetic. Everything else is diversion.
I'd strongly disagree.

And you'd be wrong. Limitations on students' 1st Amendment rights have been standard since forever.

nafod · Post by **nafod** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:03 pm

Testiclaw wrote:
nafod wrote:They're there to learn reading, writing, and arithmetic. Everything else is diversion.
I'd strongly disagree.

As exemplified by the use of your powerful bold font

johno · Post by **johno** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:06 pm

Many of the little darlings get a heaping helping of "I know my rights," and not much reading, writing & arithmetic.

Example: Does a HS diploma mean anything any more?
IMO, no.

The Crawdaddy · Post by **The Crawdaddy** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:07 pm

Testiclaw wrote:The Supreme Court has had several cases which ruled in favor of school administrators in regard to limiting expression and speech of students, even when no educational disruption takes place.

What better way to teach our children that rights aren't really rights if they can be taken away, than to limit their rights in schools?

Maybe, and I don't disagree with the general gist of those rulings - kids are there to learn. But the school's excuse is that the t-shirt is "indecent and inappropriate." I throw the bullshit flag on that one given the attire generally allowed in public high schools over the last 20 or so years. Makes this smell like some form of discrimination more than anything else to me.

Testiclaw · Post by **Testiclaw** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:28 pm

The Crawdaddy wrote:But the school's excuse is that the t-shirt is "indecent and inappropriate." I throw the bullshit flag on that one given the attire generally allowed in public high schools over the last 20 or so years. Makes this smell like some form of discrimination more than anything else to me.

I agree with you, I was just pointing out that it hasn't been uncommon for the SCOTUS to rule in favor of administrators, even if it seems odd to do so.

And you'd be wrong. Limitations on students' 1st Amendment rights have been standard since forever.

I know limitations on the first amendment for students are common, that's what I was pointing out in my initial posts.

I disagree that school should be entirely limited to reading, writing and arithmetic, that's all. It doesn't encompass what I think can be successfully taught in schools. My apologies if I wasn't clear, but it seems like we're mashing two different entities together here.

Turdacious · Post by **Turdacious** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:06 pm

johno wrote:Many of the little darlings get a heaping helping of "I know my rights," and not much reading, writing & arithmetic.

Example: Does a HS diploma mean anything any more?
IMO, no.

Yes.

The high school graduation rate is a barometer of the health of American society and the skill level of its future workforce. Throughout the first half of the twentieth century, each new cohort of Americans was more likely to graduate from high school than the preceding one. This upward trend in secondary education increased worker productivity and fueled American economic growth .1

In the past 25 years, growing wage differentials between high school graduates and dropouts increased the economic incentives for high school graduation. The real wages of high school dropouts have declined since the early 1970s while those of more skilled workers have risen sharply.2 Heckman, Lochner, and Todd 3 show that in recent decades, the internal rate of return to graduating from high school versus dropping out has increased dramatically and is now above 50 percent. Therefore, it is surprising and disturbing that, at a time when the premium for skills has increased and the return to high school graduation has risen, the high school dropout rate in America is increasing. America is becoming a polarized society. Proportionately more American youth are going to college and graduating than ever before. At the same time, proportionately more are failing to complete high school.

http://www.nber.org/reporter/2008number1/heckman.html

Pinky · Post by **Pinky** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:03 pm

Turdacious wrote:
johno wrote:Many of the little darlings get a heaping helping of "I know my rights," and not much reading, writing & arithmetic.

Example: Does a HS diploma mean anything any more?
IMO, no.
Yes.

The high school graduation rate is a barometer of the health of American society and the skill level of its future workforce. Throughout the first half of the twentieth century, each new cohort of Americans was more likely to graduate from high school than the preceding one. This upward trend in secondary education increased worker productivity and fueled American economic growth .1

In the past 25 years, growing wage differentials between high school graduates and dropouts increased the economic incentives for high school graduation. The real wages of high school dropouts have declined since the early 1970s while those of more skilled workers have risen sharply.2 Heckman, Lochner, and Todd 3 show that in recent decades, the internal rate of return to graduating from high school versus dropping out has increased dramatically and is now above 50 percent. Therefore, it is surprising and disturbing that, at a time when the premium for skills has increased and the return to high school graduation has risen, the high school dropout rate in America is increasing. America is becoming a polarized society. Proportionately more American youth are going to college and graduating than ever before. At the same time, proportionately more are failing to complete high school.
http://www.nber.org/reporter/2008number1/heckman.html

IIRC, Heckman's work shows that the difference between HS grads and dropouts is due to non-cognitive skills. E.g., the dropouts are more likely fuck-ups who can't reliably show up at the same place every day, which makes them lousy employees.

Turdacious · Post by **Turdacious** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:13 pm

Pinky wrote:
Turdacious wrote:
johno wrote:Many of the little darlings get a heaping helping of "I know my rights," and not much reading, writing & arithmetic.

Example: Does a HS diploma mean anything any more?
IMO, no.
Yes.

The high school graduation rate is a barometer of the health of American society and the skill level of its future workforce. Throughout the first half of the twentieth century, each new cohort of Americans was more likely to graduate from high school than the preceding one. This upward trend in secondary education increased worker productivity and fueled American economic growth .1

In the past 25 years, growing wage differentials between high school graduates and dropouts increased the economic incentives for high school graduation. The real wages of high school dropouts have declined since the early 1970s while those of more skilled workers have risen sharply.2 Heckman, Lochner, and Todd 3 show that in recent decades, the internal rate of return to graduating from high school versus dropping out has increased dramatically and is now above 50 percent. Therefore, it is surprising and disturbing that, at a time when the premium for skills has increased and the return to high school graduation has risen, the high school dropout rate in America is increasing. America is becoming a polarized society. Proportionately more American youth are going to college and graduating than ever before. At the same time, proportionately more are failing to complete high school.
http://www.nber.org/reporter/2008number1/heckman.html
IIRC, Heckman's work shows that the difference between HS grads and dropouts is due to non-cognitive skills. E.g., the dropouts are more likely fuck-ups who can't reliably show up at the same place every day, which makes them lousy employees.

Therefore a HS diploma is a useful filtering hiring device for prospective employees?

The problem is that they are looking for jobs in the wrong places:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... #pagebreak

johno · Post by **johno** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:28 pm

Turdacious wrote:
johno wrote:Does a HS diploma mean anything any more?
IMO, no.
Yes.

I should have put a sharper point on my question. Does having a HS diploma mean that a graduate can read, write, or figger? IMO, no.

I'm with Pinky, in that job-holding ability may correlate with having a diploma, but not for substantive learning reasons. Perhaps in the same sense that sitting zazen for 6 hours per day X 12 years would correlate.

Schlegel · Post by **Schlegel** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:00 am

johno wrote:Next they'll be depriving HS students of the right to drink, vote, make legal contracts, marry, or serve in the military.

"This is not America."

I know a lady who was thrown out of public high school for getting married.

IGX

Free speech in Ohio schools? .... Meh, not so much....

Free speech in Ohio schools? .... Meh, not so much....

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Re: Free speech in Ohio schools? .... Meh, not so much....

Re: Free speech in Ohio schools? .... Meh, not so much....

Re: Free speech in Ohio schools? .... Meh, not so much....

Re: Free speech in Ohio schools? .... Meh, not so much....

Re: Free speech in Ohio schools? .... Meh, not so much....

Re: Free speech in Ohio schools? .... Meh, not so much....

Re: Free speech in Ohio schools? .... Meh, not so much....

Re: Free speech in Ohio schools? .... Meh, not so much....

Re: Free speech in Ohio schools? .... Meh, not so much....

Re: Free speech in Ohio schools? .... Meh, not so much....

Re: Free speech in Ohio schools? .... Meh, not so much....

Re: Free speech in Ohio schools? .... Meh, not so much....

Re: Free speech in Ohio schools? .... Meh, not so much....