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Manslaughter is the plea deal the Prosecutor has in mind for Zman.

good point

Grandpa's Spells wrote:http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/ ... 8H20120425

Interesting backstory.

Vital backstory. Thanks, Steve.

Too bad that this side of the story doesn't get more play. A part African kid raised by an African Peruvian Grandma isn't the "Cracker Motherfucker" we've been told about by the Race Baiters, Poverty Pimps and White Guilt people.

In most Inner Cities it's a Self Defense Apartheid. People in the 'burbs and rural areas can shoot back. In the Cities you got caveman weapons while the "bangers" got the best shit that drug money can buy.

Politicians like Ted Kennedy talked about "gun control" while he lived in gated communities and had armed guards. It's easy to be pious when it doesn't hurt you. I bet Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have or can get armed guards and guns.

Nothing else seems to deter the thugs. They see something they like "It's Mine". The Police aren't there, the Laws aren't there, Midnight Basketball, Welfare and Jobs Training don't impress "gangstas".

If they get caught they get caught. Some of them treat prison as a 'rite of passage', a place to buff up, polish their reputation, put on a few pounds at the weight pile and earn "street cred". So they can front and earn better on the street. Once they get a Felony conviction it's "Part of the racist system". Their own decisions don't matter because the game to them is rigged. They've been lied to by sick fucks who want their cheap labor or want a job "helping" them. Race pandering is a way of life for some folks.

One in four young black men in the US is in prison, probation or parole. If white America is racist how the fuck do so many people from Asia get here with the clothes on their backs and most earn a good living? Why are so few Asians in prison? Asians aren't white people. They don't always speak good English.

Slavery has nothing to do with it. Many Koreans and Chinese were slaves of Japanese or of each other for many generations. Vietnam had continuous war, famine and disease for generations. Where are their "scars"? Why aren't one in four of them in prison, on parole or probation? Why are so many of them in College and in good paying jobs?

I bet once the dust settles from the Zimmerman case that a few young men are gonna think, "I could be Trayvon".

It's ugly. Life is ugly when you take from others, oppress them and act like the world owes you something. Most of the time you walk. Sometimes you pay.

johno wrote:Manslaughter is the plea deal the Prosecutor has in mind for Zman.

She has something in mind. Her own career.

I bet that Zimmerman takes Court. He has to clear his name. Someone is going to clip him later if he cops a plea.

In Court his grandma or her relatives will show up. Everyone will learn he's not a "white Hispanic" but a "Mestizo", half white, three eights Spanish and an eighth African. He's been helping out black kids. The man ain't an "Oreo" or a "Coconut". He's an average American trying to do the best he can do.

We're all George Zimmerman.

johno wrote:Manslaughter is the plea deal the Prosecutor has in mind for Zman.

This is one the things Dershowitz has been slamming the prosecutor for. She's trying to extort a plea deal.

As for Gorby, I'm starting to think he's really not Rant. Rant pretending not to know what constitutes an arrest in the US would be the funniest thing he's ever done.

Pinky wrote:

johno wrote:Manslaughter is the plea deal the Prosecutor has in mind for Zman.

This is one the things Dershowitz has been slamming the prosecutor for. She's trying to extort a plea deal.

As for Gorby, I'm starting to think he's really not Rant. Rant pretending not to know what constitutes an arrest in the US would be the funniest thing he's ever done.

Thank you, Sr Pinky. Keep ignoring the fact that be wasn't actually arrested on the night of the incident. You're doing great.

You really have never heard of the phrase arrested and released without charge? Its incredibly common.

As best I can tell, Gorby wanted Zimmerman "arrested" and held for 4 days. That would have satisfied Gorby's sense of fair play.

LOL at anyone attacking the country that gave the world the writ of Habeas corpus.

johno wrote:As best I can tell, Gorby wanted Zimmerman "arrested" and held for 4 days. That would have satisfied Gorby's sense of fair play.

Milk and cookies diplomacy, that is clearly.

Yes, I'm drunk wrote:LOL at anyone attacking the country that gave the world the writ of Habeas corpus.

Was it Gene? cause no one reads that shit.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:You really have never heard of the phrase arrested and released without charge? Its incredibly common.

When police arrived on the scene, Zimmerman told them that Martin had attacked him, and that he had shot Martin in self-defense.[2][15] Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and had a wound on the back of his head.[16][17]EMTs treated Zimmerman at the scene, after which he was taken to the Sanford Police department where he was questioned for hours,[17] taped a video statement, and was released without being arrested.[16] Police said that they had not found evidence to contradict his assertion of self-defense.[18][19][20][21]]

The above is from the Wiki article on the shooting. It's not complicated. There is a material difference between someone going to a police station and answering questions / making a statement, versus someone being arrested by the police. This is not a small detail. He arrived at the station at 7.52pm and left at 10pm. Ask yourself how you'd feel about that if it was someone dear to you who'd been shot in those circumstances.

Now let's move past what happened and consider what should have happened under your ideal system, on the facts of the Zimmerman shooting.

My suggested course is for arrest, limited detention to allow for securing the shooter and some investigation, followed by a decision to charge or not, followed by a bail hearing if he's being charged. Johno, 4 days is a lot - I'd say 72 hours perhaps, given that someone has died, maybe with a senior police officer having to appear before a judge to get that.

Gorbachev wrote:My suggested course is for arrest, limited detention to allow for securing the shooter and some investigation, followed by a decision to charge or not, followed by a bail hearing if he's being charged. Johno, 4 days is a lot - I'd say 72 hours perhaps, given that someone has died, maybe with a senior police officer having to appear before a judge to get that.

I understand that you are locked in an intense Internet argument over a particular word a few pages back and have a wikipedia entry for support but does it change anything in the conversation? Suppose that we ignore the fact that
an arrest is when police legally restrict the movement of a person, are you really, seriously, arguing that the authorities should have pushed to file charges that evening (i.e. "arrest him" by your definition) without having all the facts or having done more than a preliminary investigation, simply it would make left-wing media hacks and an angry crowd happy?

Terry B. wrote:

Gorbachev wrote:My suggested course is for arrest, limited detention to allow for securing the shooter and some investigation, followed by a decision to charge or not, followed by a bail hearing if he's being charged. Johno, 4 days is a lot - I'd say 72 hours perhaps, given that someone has died, maybe with a senior police officer having to appear before a judge to get that.

I understand that you are locked in an intense Internet argument over a particular word a few pages back and have a wikipedia entry for support but does it change anything in the conversation? Suppose that we ignore the fact that
an arrest is when police legally restrict the movement of a person, are you really, seriously, arguing that the authorities should have pushed to file charges that evening (i.e. "arrest him" by your definition) without having all the facts or having done more than a preliminary investigation, simply it would make left-wing media hacks and an angry crowd happy?

Mrs B, your attempt to belittle me and my inconvenient fact does you no favours.

I've given my suggested approach under the mythical Gorby system. It involved detention of the shooter for a lot more than 2 hours. What would have occurred under Mrs B's system? It seems that your system equates arrest with the filing of charges so maybe an explanatory memo of some sort is also required to overlay your response.

Gorbachev wrote:

Terry B. wrote:

Gorbachev wrote:My suggested course is for arrest, limited detention to allow for securing the shooter and some investigation, followed by a decision to charge or not, followed by a bail hearing if he's being charged. Johno, 4 days is a lot - I'd say 72 hours perhaps, given that someone has died, maybe with a senior police officer having to appear before a judge to get that.

I understand that you are locked in an intense Internet argument over a particular word a few pages back and have a wikipedia entry for support but does it change anything in the conversation? Suppose that we ignore the fact that
an arrest is when police legally restrict the movement of a person, are you really, seriously, arguing that the authorities should have pushed to file charges that evening (i.e. "arrest him" by your definition) without having all the facts or having done more than a preliminary investigation, simply it would make left-wing media hacks and an angry crowd happy?

Mrs B, your attempt to belittle me and my inconvenient fact does you no favours.

I've given my suggested approach under the mythical Gorby system. It involved detention of the shooter for a lot more than 2 hours. What would have occurred under Mrs B's system? It seems that your system equates arrest with the filing of charges so maybe an explanatory memo of some sort is also required to overlay your response.

Do you have a point?

Terry B. wrote:

Gorbachev wrote:

Terry B. wrote:

Gorbachev wrote:My suggested course is for arrest, limited detention to allow for securing the shooter and some investigation, followed by a decision to charge or not, followed by a bail hearing if he's being charged. Johno, 4 days is a lot - I'd say 72 hours perhaps, given that someone has died, maybe with a senior police officer having to appear before a judge to get that.

I understand that you are locked in an intense Internet argument over a particular word a few pages back and have a wikipedia entry for support but does it change anything in the conversation? Suppose that we ignore the fact that
an arrest is when police legally restrict the movement of a person, are you really, seriously, arguing that the authorities should have pushed to file charges that evening (i.e. "arrest him" by your definition) without having all the facts or having done more than a preliminary investigation, simply it would make left-wing media hacks and an angry crowd happy?

Mrs B, your attempt to belittle me and my inconvenient fact does you no favours.

I've given my suggested approach under the mythical Gorby system. It involved detention of the shooter for a lot more than 2 hours. What would have occurred under Mrs B's system? It seems that your system equates arrest with the filing of charges so maybe an explanatory memo of some sort is also required to overlay your response.

Do you have a point?

I grow old. I grow old. I shall wear my trousers rolled.

My point is made above but to summarise:

A system that sees an unarmed kid shot dead by another citizen and whose response is to question the shooter for 2 hours, is a broke system. Dice it, slice it, put cheese on it. That's pretty obvious to anyone capable of imagining how they'd feel if it was their kid in the morgue.

Gorbachev wrote:A system that sees an unarmed kid shot dead by another citizen and whose response is to question the shooter for 2 hours, is a broke system. Dice it, slice it, put cheese on it. That's pretty obvious to anyone capable of imagining how they'd feel if it was their kid in the morgue.

Few reasonable people would disagree that if a person is dead after a confrontation of that sort that they need to be held in custody until things are sorted out.

In this case, it shouldn't have happened because the law doesn't allow for such to happen - Floridians have been fairly clear that they want the right to shoot each other at will and in the US you go home if bribe the system with a big enough bail payment that they can buy new office furniture if you don't show up.

I do not think that "special" cases should be made to make an example out of a person or because the media is feeding a lynch mob.

I do think that people should question the system that allows for this sort of thing to happen but real change takes time and in the ADD.......sorry WGM just posted in the Self-Shooters thread. BRB!

I could not disagree more. This sort of extra-legal shenanigans of holding someone without charge is Bullshit and completely unconstitutional. If they want to use material witness warrants that's one thing but there is no legal basis to hold him without charge otherwise.

Feelings of victims and the public have ZERO to do with legal justice. What Gorby advocates is not just ignorant of the law, it's utterly at odds with a free society and babe in the woods trusting of the Police.

If they wanted to charge or thought they could charge him with a crime, that's the issue, not just..hey there buddy, let's just kidnap you and wait this thing out... Use the authority you have with reasonable judgement. The riots we're going to have when this guy gets acquitted are on the Special Prosecutor. The media is going to blame the system but this could have been avoided entirely.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:

Yes, I'm drunk wrote:LOL at anyone attacking the country that gave the world the writ of Habeas corpus.

Was it Gene? cause no one reads that shit.

It probably was. I did unblock his posts a few months back, which was fortunate really, otherwise I'd never have got to read his fantasy story about how him and a drunk guy at a truck stop worked through their daddy issues with each other, and had a big old hug before going their separate ways. It was heartwarming, in a way you don't often see in these cynical, guarded times.....

Pinky wrote:

Gin Master wrote:I'd be inclined to say, "you shot an unarmed kid, and something is really wrong here; we need to keep you in jail until we sort this out." But there is no legal basis to do so. On what grounds would arrest him?

This is one of the things that's troubling about this case. People are not horrified by the idea of holding an accused person in jail until things get "sorted out".

No, no. I'd be very horrified at that because that's not what our government should be about. I'm just saying that if I were sheriff of Rock Ridge, shit would get sorted out in a matter of hours. And many, many peoples' rights would be violated.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:The riots we're going to have when this guy gets acquitted are on the Special Prosecutor.

if riots occur, like those of 20 years ago after l.a. cops got off for whupping rodney king, they would simply be another link in the chain that began when the first slave ship reached our shores.

karma

Uh... Gorby's beliefs on detention aside, he's right about Zimmy not being 'arrested' at the time. The gymnastics some of your are jumping through to equate questioned and arrested are hilarious.

Nor is ZImmy guaranteed a walk under the laws of the state of Florida by any stretch of the imagination. Stand Your Ground and castle laws are not licenses to shoot when spooked - in the vent of prosecution you still need a jury, ultimately, to believe that you acted in self-defense.

milosz wrote:Uh... Gorby's beliefs on detention aside, he's right about Zimmy not being 'arrested' at the time. The gymnastics some of your are jumping through to equate questioned and arrested are hilarious.

Nor is ZImmy guaranteed a walk under the laws of the state of Florida by any stretch of the imagination. Stand Your Ground and castle laws are not licenses to shoot when spooked - in the vent of prosecution you still need a jury, ultimately, to believe that you acted in self-defense.

No. Gorby applies the feelings standard. See, handcuffs make you FEEL arrested, as in you have no choice whether to go answer questions or not. Ergo...removed without choice is arrested. Period. He was not booked and was released.

Zimmerman was arrested.

He was restrained via handcuffs and taken into police custody for questioning. There's no "jumping through gymnastics" as you so eloquently put it. Gorby, Milosz- You're wrong. Let's move on.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/arrest

A seizure or forcible restraint; an exercise of the power to deprive a person of his or her liberty; the taking or keeping of a person in custody by legal authority, especially, in response to a criminal charge.

An arrest may occur (1) by the touching or putting hands on the arrestee; (2) by any act that indicates an intention to take the arrestee into custody and that subjects the arrestee to the actual control and will of the person making the arrest; or (3) by the consent of the person to be arrested. There is no arrest where there is no restraint, and the restraint must be under real or pretended legal authority. However, the detention of a person need not be accompanied by formal words of arrest or a station house booking to constitute an arrest.

Arrested / not arrested. Yes, lets get past that. The police said they did not have enough to arrest him on the night:

"In this case Mr. Zimmerman has made the statement of self-defense," Lee said. "Until we can establish probable cause to dispute that, we don't have the grounds to arrest him."

But yeah, he was cuffed. And not charged. So it's perhaps not something you're all going to agree on.

Of course, the REAL lesson on lax gun control which America SHOULD learn from this whole sorry mess is not even being raised. Instead, it's become a racial thing, a stand-your-ground thing, a police thing and so on. For the rest of us weird Europeans, it's just another whacky US gun thing. Plain and simple. Next.

Zimmerman is going to end up a victim of the lax gun laws he thought were going to help protect him. There are no winners here. It's all a giant fucked-up situation.