IGX

I always wondered what happened. Didn't realize the mystery had been solved. It's pretty fucking spooky.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technol ... 47-6611877

Shapecharge wrote:I always wondered what happened. Didn't realize the mystery had been solved. It's pretty fucking spooky.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technol ... 47-6611877

That is one of the ultimate monumental pilot error cases I've ever seen. Flew a perfectly good jet into the water for no reason. Two things caught my eye:
- It's an Airbus. They have a different philosophy towards cockpit automation than Boeing does. and the idea that the more senior pilot can't see or feel what the other guy is doing with his sidestick controller is FUBAR.
- The Captain was a-snoozing, leaving two more junior guys at the helm

On my trip to South Africa, the airliner flew right down the Atlantic and probably near to the crash site, so I thought about it while chilling at 37K ft back in steerage. Took some comfort in the fact that it was a Boeing jet, and that they had two full crews of Captain and First Officer on board. I wonder if that was a new thing, though, based on the crash.

The men are utterly failing to engage in an important process known as crew resource management, or CRM. They are failing, essentially, to cooperate.

nafod, what do you think about the CRM model?
Taken from aviation, it is being promoted in the fire service.

johno wrote:

The men are utterly failing to engage in an important process known as crew resource management, or CRM. They are failing, essentially, to cooperate.

nafod, what do you think about the CRM model?
Taken from aviation, it is being promoted in the fire service.

It saves lives and makes the whole greater than the sum of the parts. Similarly with ORM risk management stuff. All good.

It could make an impact in hospitals too, for sure, for those iGX docs visiting this thread.

Shapecharge wrote:I always wondered what happened. Didn't realize the mystery had been solved. It's pretty fucking spooky.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technol ... 47-6611877

Aircrew Coordination is about Decision Making, Assertiveness, Mission Analysis, Communication, Leadership, Adaptability, and Situational Awareness.

Once they screwed the pooch by not holding attitude and power when airpseed went to zero, and then not only didn't the lower nose, they didn't even release backstick pressure in a stall warning situation.

F'in frogs. They are the JFK Jrs of aviation.

With two copilots in cockpit the nonflying pilot should have been talking the flying frog out of his helmet fire. Even with the Captain flying, CRM demands assertiveness. You don't let anybody, no matter how senior, try to kill you.

Avoidable.

Never trust a Frenchman with your life. They know wine and cheese and little else. If you want someone to pilot you around in a tin can at 30,000 feet, go German.

Anyone who's played any kind of flight sim knows you don't hold the stick back like this guy did. Why not just level out the controls and gun the engines if you're so worried about your speed or the damn storm? Too bad the real captain was too busy being inducted into the Mile High Club for the umpteenth time to actually do his job. You would think there'd be a better time to take a nap than when approaching a dangerous storm.

Well that makes me never want to fly again.

A side note touching on the CRM thing. There is more and more stuff trickling into locomotive operations from aviation.

Ed Zachary wrote:A side note touching on the CRM thing. There is more and more stuff trickling into locomotive operations from aviation.

If you find yourself hurtling 40 degrees into the ocean, blame your copilot?

Not what happened here, but there's an interesting bit in Outliers about how power distance in cultures can lead to plane crashes. Similar info here:
http://www.publicspeakingtoolkit.com/et ... ashes.html

I read that section of the book on a plane, which was uncomfortable.

protobuilder wrote:

Ed Zachary wrote:A side note touching on the CRM thing. There is more and more stuff trickling into locomotive operations from aviation.

If you find yourself hurtling 40 degrees into the ocean, blame your copilot?

Yep.

EZ, if you were travelling in the caboose of a mile long train travelling at 60 mph and your train crashes head on into another similar sized train travelling at the same speed would you have time to rub one out before crazy shit started to happen? Knowing as we all do that train people are extremely homosexual, is homo-conductor/engineer behavior during actual train operations a major cause of crashes and mishaps and this information is kept from the public and blamed on other things?

Shapecharge wrote:EZ, if you were travelling in the caboose of a mile long train travelling at 60 mph and your train crashes head on into another similar sized train travelling at the same speed would you have time to rub one out before crazy shit started to happen? Knowing as we all do that train people are extremely homosexual, is homo-conductor/engineer behavior during actual train operations a major cause of crashes and mishaps and this information is kept from the public and blamed on other things?

Yes on all points.

Shape missed his calling as an engineer. Are ass-less chaps and handlebar mustaches the norm?

Ed Zachary wrote:A side note touching on the CRM thing. There is more and more stuff trickling into locomotive operations from aviation.

What's the rail equivalent of the Mile High Club?

Freki wrote:

Ed Zachary wrote:A side note touching on the CRM thing. There is more and more stuff trickling into locomotive operations from aviation.

What's the rail equivalent of the Mile High Club?

The On Top of the Dining Car club.

Freki wrote:

Ed Zachary wrote:A side note touching on the CRM thing. There is more and more stuff trickling into locomotive operations from aviation.

What's the rail equivalent of the Mile High Club?

The always late club.

If you want anything to arrive on time never ship by rail.

Or anyone.I always get surprised when the train arrives on time.

Fat Cat wrote:http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/848061 ... -went-down

If the Airbus is rocking...

Imagine those poor people falling for 3.5 minutes. Not a nice way to go.

Fat Cat wrote:Imagine those poor people falling for 3.5 minutes. Not a nice way to go.

Ughhh. Best not to dwell on it while motoring along back in steerage at 40,000'.

I was on a flight to LA from DC in a two engine airliner, and we lost one of them while over Colorado. Felt the engine vibration go up, and a whiff of oil through the cabin pressurization system (powered by engine bleed air). There was some serious tension back in economy class. Ended up diverting to Colorado Springs airport, which is a mostly commuter site, so we took up the whole terminal. Tension got released in the terminal bar.

whiff of oil through the cabin pressurization system

Yeah, this is what scares me the most when flying. I read a book on air disasters years ago and the creepiest one IMO was Saudia Flight 163.

Seven minutes after takeoff, the flight reports a fire in the cargo area and returns to make an emergency landing. The plane makes a perfect landing, taxies off the runway, stops, and shuts down the engines.

All 301 people on board were dead from smoke inhalation.

vern wrote:

whiff of oil through the cabin pressurization system

Yeah, this is what scares me the most when flying. I read a book on air disasters years ago and the creepiest one IMO was Saudia Flight 163.

Seven minutes after takeoff, the flight reports a fire in the cargo area and returns to make an emergency landing. The plane makes a perfect landing, taxies off the runway, stops, and shuts down the engines.

All 301 people on board were dead from smoke inhalation.

jesus christ!

those pilots should get a medal for safely landing a plane while dead