IGX Docs - why don't you use checklists?

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nafod
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IGX Docs - why don't you use checklists?

Post by nafod »

Would you ever get on an airplane where the pilots announce they're just going to start up the engines and takeoff just working from memory? Why don't you guys use them for procedures?

You guys suck. Discuss...
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Andy83
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Re: IGX Docs - why don't you use checklists?

Post by Andy83 »

What you sayin'? I forget somethin'?
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Re: IGX Docs - why don't you use checklists?

Post by SAR »

Seems like a bad idea to perseverate about whether I have the right hemostat when someone's been shot and is bleeding to death

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Re: IGX Docs - why don't you use checklists?

Post by nafod »

SAR wrote:Seems like a bad idea to perseverate about whether I have the right hemostat when someone's been shot and is bleeding to death
That's similar to immediate action items on an aviation checklist, known as BOLDFACE on Navy checklists. So you have to be able to execute from memory the response to the engine blowing up on takeoff, for example. But then you check it.

Most medical stuff is not of that ilk, I bet.
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Re: IGX Docs - why don't you use checklists?

Post by judobrian »

Rote procedures that are done the same way each time for the same indications are amenable to checklists, yes. The majority of medicine is not procedure based.
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Re: IGX Docs - why don't you use checklists?

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judobrian wrote:Rote procedures that are done the same way each time for the same indications are amenable to checklists, yes.
They don't even have to be done the same way each time. when you fly all over the place, a critical part of flight ops is tailoring what you are doing to the local conditions like current weather, runway length and altitude, payload, mission, etc. The checklist guides you to think of everything.
The majority of medicine is not procedure based.
I just went through a whole slew of stuff, which pretty much consisted of doing a bunch of diagnostic procedures, followed by some heavy thinking and decision-making, followed by a few more procedures. The whole time I was thinking, why the fuck not use a checklist?

Cool article on a study in this area.
Yet it’s far from obvious that something as simple as a checklist could be of much help in medical care. Sick people are phenomenally more various than airplanes. A study of forty-one thousand trauma patients—just trauma patients—found that they had 1,224 different injury-related diagnoses in 32,261 unique combinations for teams to attend to. That’s like having 32,261 kinds of airplane to land. Mapping out the proper steps for each is not possible, and physicians have been skeptical that a piece of paper with a bunch of little boxes would improve matters much.

In 2001, though, a critical-care specialist at Johns Hopkins Hospital named Peter Pronovost decided to give it a try. He didn’t attempt to make the checklist cover everything; he designed it to tackle just one problem, the one that nearly killed Anthony DeFilippo: line infections. On a sheet of plain paper, he plotted out the steps to take in order to avoid infections when putting a line in. Doctors are supposed to (1) wash their hands with soap, (2) clean the patient’s skin with chlorhexidine antiseptic, (3) put sterile drapes over the entire patient, (4) wear a sterile mask, hat, gown, and gloves, and (5) put a sterile dressing over the catheter site once the line is in. Check, check, check, check, check. These steps are no-brainers; they have been known and taught for years. So it seemed silly to make a checklist just for them. Still, Pronovost asked the nurses in his I.C.U. to observe the doctors for a month as they put lines into patients, and record how often they completed each step. In more than a third of patients, they skipped at least one.
The next month, he and his team persuaded the hospital administration to authorize nurses to stop doctors if they saw them skipping a step on the checklist; nurses were also to ask them each day whether any lines ought to be removed, so as not to leave them in longer than necessary. This was revolutionary. Nurses have always had their ways of nudging a doctor into doing the right thing, ranging from the gentle reminder (“Um, did you forget to put on your mask, doctor?”) to more forceful methods (I’ve had a nurse bodycheck me when she thought I hadn’t put enough drapes on a patient). But many nurses aren’t sure whether this is their place, or whether a given step is worth a confrontation. (Does it really matter whether a patient’s legs are draped for a line going into the chest?) The new rule made it clear: if doctors didn’t follow every step on the checklist, the nurses would have backup from the administration to intervene.

Pronovost and his colleagues monitored what happened for a year afterward. The results were so dramatic that they weren’t sure whether to believe them: the ten-day line-infection rate went from eleven per cent to zero. So they followed patients for fifteen more months. Only two line infections occurred during the entire period. They calculated that, in this one hospital, the checklist had prevented forty-three infections and eight deaths, and saved two million dollars in costs.


Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007 ... z1y5OB6mdX
I'd been familiar with this from before, and the discussion on the Air France plus me laying there getting procedured joggled my mind. So i'm laying there thinking, why the fuck isn't that nurse saying "hands washed, check; draped, check; swabbed, check"

The only answer I could come with is that docs are a bunch of arrogant bastards ignoring the hard evidence on the efficacy of this shit, which has been proven over and over to make medicine better.
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Re: IGX Docs - why don't you use checklists?

Post by SAR »

Protocolized medicine, checklists, etc are part of medicine and growing. They work well in a limited fashion in trauma and in the icu where there is a system and a team that delivers consistency. ( your line infection example is a good one)
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Re: IGX Docs - why don't you use checklists?

Post by nafod »

OK, I'm giving you guys shit because you're the only doctors that I have ready access to and can heckle. Otherwise, I'm pretty much on the receiving end of things. CRM should be coming too, it'll make your team work better. Some light reading with pictures (it's for sailors) in between porn browsing sessions.

http://www.netc.navy.mil/nascweb/crm/st ... skills.htm
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Re: IGX Docs - why don't you use checklists?

Post by judobrian »

I've got Gawande's book, I've lectured as part of a CRM seminar. In some situations, it works very, very well (putting in a non-emergent central line, preparing the OR). In others, the concept is moderately useless. The concept of a well structured team with each member able to advance a concern and potentially stop the ensuing process is a valid one.
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Re: IGX Docs - why don't you use checklists?

Post by johno »

Good topic. The Checklist Manifesto, written by a surgeon, is worthwhile. Although it could have been a 12 page pamphlet, instead of a "book."

It also applies to many emergency medical & firefighting procedures. But there are some chaotic situations where the boxes that apply are very broad categories, and somewhat subjective.

The fire service can be very backward, similar to the military.
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Re: IGX Docs - why don't you use checklists?

Post by Turdacious »

Actually, one of the things I learned in the military was the value of checklists (although as SAR points out they aren't applicable for every situation). A good checklist can be very useful-- even in an FD (a buddy of mine who was NYFD Hazmat used them all the time). IMO the biggest problem is that even when you have a good checklist, people are too lazy to use them (generally those who need them the most), and/or supervisors are too lazy to enforce their use.

IMO a good checklist can definitely reduce liability risk, which is a good thing.
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